Ignition on a 13B

[PGiljevic]

So Pete, having read above, If I were to ask you to give me a break down of the BEST ignition system (which off course must work with WI), what would be your answer?

What coils, CDIs, etc etc

Mir

Going off my own reality, and not off a magazine or internet page or others recommendations.

Dynatek ARC-2
Dynatek 0.5 ohm CDI coils

I have used personally.

AEM CDI
MSD (all models)
Autronic R500 (high output and std)
Motec and M&W (same .... made by same people)
Crane Hi6
ULTRA CDI (good Japan make)
ICE (inductive booster)
HKS DLI
Bosch CDI
Most other crap Inductive solutions customers have presented ! (most mentioned here!)

[Mir]

Going off my own reality, and not off a magazine or internet page or others recommendations.

Dynatek ARC-2
Dynatek 0.5 ohm CDI coils

I have used personally.

AEM CDI
MSD (all models)
Autronic R500 (high output and std)
Motec and M&W (same .... made by same people)
Crane Hi6
ULTRA CDI (good Japan make)
ICE (inductive booster)
HKS DLI
Bosch CDI
Most other crap Inductive solutions customers have presented ! (most mentioned here!)

Lets say if I were to go with your recommendation, i.e. Dynatek ARC-2
Dynatek 0.5 ohm CDI coils, what sort of application it can support "reliably"? I mean Horse Power wise?

The reason I am asking you these questions are because, I am in a process of building an ignition system for my 20b. According to my research, its a very cumbersome and perplex area. One minute I want to go with MSD and the other minute I want to install Motec system as I am running a MOTEC ecu at the moment!!

I am in a constant discussion with my mapper about this and I appreciate all his input on this matter, but I like to make decisions myself-hence I am doing research on everything as I don\'t want to leave any stone un-turned ....

So in nutshell, I would like to hear from you regarding this..

Mir

[Mir]

I cant use Dynatek ARC-2 as its for 4 cylinder lollll

[BlitzBoy]

Motec do a Rotary CDI module to connect to the MOtec ECU. On a 20B if want a Motec CDI you would go for CDI 8 system
Inductive is the most common ignition for most performance cars out there,inductive is stock on the rx7, you go CDI depending on the application and horsepower goals, high RPM and big boost go CDI. I have not reached the limits of my bosch inductive system yet so wont spend the money just yet. But will go CDI eventually as it is suited for high boost high rpm applications.

Simply explaination from the Motec site Inductive Vs CDI

Inductive Ignition versus CDI Systems
In an inductive ignition system, the coil is charged at battery voltage for a period of time—known as \'dwell time\'—prior to firing. The dwell or charge time is controlled by the ECU and should match the coil being used in order to not over or under charge. Undercharging reduces available spark energy, while overcharging can cause overheating of the coil and/or ignition module. Inductive ignition systems produce a spark, at a lower voltage with a longer duration compared to capacitor discharge ignition systems.

A CDI, Capacitor Discharge Ignition system is charging constantly and sends a large voltage charge (380–450 V) to the coil. The spark produced is extremely short in duration and at a much higher voltage than an inductive setup. Note that inductive coils should not be used with a CDI system; CDI compatible coils are required.

There are three main engine running characteristics to consider:

•High cylinder pressures
Generally, higher cylinder pressures require more voltage to initiate a spark. Boosted or nitrous injected engines create tremendous cylinder pressures that increase resistance to lighting the ignition spark. CDI systems are most often used on these engines.
•High RPM
The time available to charge the coil in an inductive system reduces at higher RPM. If the time available is shorter than the time required for a full charge, coil power and, as a result, performance will be reduced. A CDI system might be required.

•Lean mixtures
The shorter spark duration in CDI systems might not be sufficient to ignite enough of the mixture to propagate the flame front through the cylinder. Inductive ignition will perform better in this setup.
Most vehicles, including high performance road and race applications use an inductive ignition system. Generally, if your engine can run correctly on an inductive setup, it is better to leave it that way and install a CDI system only when your engine, due to high RPM or cylinder pressure, requires that you do so.

[PGiljevic]

Lets say if I were to go with your recommendation, i.e. Dynatek ARC-2
Dynatek 0.5 ohm CDI coils, what sort of application it can support "reliably"? I mean Horse Power wise?

The reason I am asking you these questions are because, I am in a process of building an ignition system for my 20b. According to my research, its a very cumbersome and perplex area. One minute I want to go with MSD and the other minute I want to install Motec system as I am running a MOTEC ecu at the moment!!

I am in a constant discussion with my mapper about this and I appreciate all his input on this matter, but I like to make decisions myself-hence I am doing research on everything as I don\'t want to leave any stone un-turned ....

So in nutshell, I would like to hear from you regarding this..

Mir

In short you need to consult the the person who will be finishing off the service for you (its the most harmonious way). If he has the experience to back up his way then he will show you that (i.e. here is a car lets go for a drive, or I will show you it here >) and you follow him in his recommendations 100%.

I have not found a HP limitation (tuning window is anything you could wish to run, not what the ign limits you too, or lack of power production *through ign shortfalls dictates*) on the Dynatek as described above. The best thing about it is its reliable, and wont fry itself while providing the high current and amps you will measure from it.
If your builder has alternatives then best form of decision making for "enthusiasts" is to see cars and set ups in reality that work on those systems

I gave up believing paper stats of ign systems manufactures put out, I got my own lab scope and tested the stuff myself to find out what works, the other stuff is measuring the power & performance and the other is long term testing (non fictional)..............

A great Ignition system will do the following:

* Run race heat range plugs (you never need to change plugs!)
* Run any AFR, WI ratio
* Run any chamber pressure (not be boost limited)
* Run normal plug gaps
* Run hard! and not burn out!
* Run always, not for a time limit!

^ If your ign system can\'t do that its not adequate. If you need to change out warm up plugs for race plugs its dodgey!

[PGiljevic]

I cant use Dynatek ARC-2 as its for 4 cylinder lollll

:rollin Indeed!!! :rollin

[PGiljevic]

Coil on plug set up, CDI





Here is pics of the RR COP CD system mounted up (CDI boxes next to battery on custom holder), wiring harness and COP\'s installed.













HIGH BOOST BRO! RRWEP110 Water Injected.

~30psi on pump petrol and water injected







To give this comparison test some context:
RICESP (stock std 13B-REW engine, full catalyst exhaust, T04 type turbo, plumb back waste gate, small standard inter cooler 1310kg)
*fully compliant genuine road car*

ND4SPD (Cosmo 13B, full bridge port, T51 type turbo charger, large front mounted inter cooler, gutted exhaust, open waste gate pipe 1250kg)
*quasi race car!*

I did some very interesting comparisons to ND4SPD (Mazda Capella I tuned with RRWEP110 WI) V\'s RICESP via the immense analysis power of the VBOX

I\'ll list up some comparison results: About the total FALLACY of " typical dyno sheets"! v\'s real world power and times taken for vehicles to actually do "work" with known levels of weight/mass!!!

This car makes on a dynohomodynamics ~390rwkw on 19psi boost (full bridge port & T51 turbo 1250kg as run at race track) where we got these recordings. You will see RICESP at 1310kg run weight is just as powerful (real rwkw! power as measured by me via VBOX!) and its just as fast in peak power band too (what really matters at the end of the day rather than poofter dyno sheet comparisons)

This report is of ND4SPD in its peak power band (6000rpm to 8200rpm) = 110kph to 150kph in 3rd gear on 19psi boost (VBOX measure = ~310rwkw owner has sheets of 380 to 390rwkw on homo dynamics guess machine)
ND4SPD = 110kmh to 150kmh = 2.07 seconds


This report shows RICESP and the first one is a FC RX7 fitted with a bridge port 13B running 15psi boost and a GT35 turbo lol (you can see I am twice as fast as it lol 4.43 seconds V\'s 2.06 seconds!) This car apparently makes 270rwkw dynohomodynaimcs @ 16psi boost LOL! You can see these dyno figures are not worth ....ing on in the REAL WORLD! and are vastly overstated from what the cars actually makes when you apply real physics to them!!!


And the other result table is at full boost when I tuned it (ND4SPD) on road just before setting national dyno record http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm < *read customer testimonial* (which to this day still stands!) for the only ever 13B rotary to lay down 3 back to back power runs of this level and still be able to drive home on pump petrol
Boost, EGT, RPM, AFR sensors fitted in this tuning session.
RICESP = 110kmh to 150kmh = 2.06 seconds


My RX7 is pretty quick I think you will all agree and this is still not sharing the current state of high power tune *I\'ll save that for another day*

[HaywardRotary]

That wont happen, Rxmotors (does not post on here for his own personal reasons), Hayward (he posts but I have yet to see proof of him making a high powered rotary that has broken into 10s or recorded high terminals on the strip, so he needs to prove himself in my eyes in regards to outright power IMO),
Dragon (suspended), oldone (banned) , Pip (never ever seen him post on a forum, too busy I imagine)

My engines get proven for 20 minute races and alot more in 24 hour races  for lap after lap and race after race without rebuild, not for just 10 seconds at a time.So drag racing is not everything in this world and in fact proves very little with the exception that an engine can run and make power continually for 10 seconds at a time,then it cools down and waits for the next 10 seconds,the rest of the time on the road these cars are only making 40 or 50hp while cruising,(hardly stressed),think about it,where on the road are you constantly at revs and full throttle making the full power that the engine is tuned for? I can tell you less than 0.1% of the time it is driven,whereas a circuit race car it is at revs and power pretty much all of the time it is not braking, so who\'s engines have really proved to be tested thoroughly? I\'ll leave that for people to make their own minds up.

[BlitzBoy]

I was talking about big power in my statement not endurance racing where you dont need big power. You have never tuned a big powered rotary fact, you have made good circuit engines I agree, but they dont make big power.

Fastest FD circuit cars I have seen was the ex whiftbitz car (engine and tuning done by Jaydee) which put in high terminals on the strip as well proving it had high power and lasted on the circuit

So shut me up and finish your 3 rotor Rx3 Drag car, thats been 5 years in the making

[HaywardRotary]

LOL
We are producing very consistent 500hp plus engines with the same porting at 1 bar boost and obviously higher at 1.3 bar, and with a variation on the porting we are are making nearly 600 hp with some specials, and all on medium sized turbo\'s. Oh and if you need proof then just look at race results where cars with 700hp + are being beaten on track regularly.
The highest terminal on strip with a car so far we have done the engine for is 130mph,so hardly slow,especially since it was not a dedicated drag race car like yours.Notice that terminal is the same as yours.........and all at 1 bar boost not 1.25 like yours.
So Mark,if you really want to boast then go on circuit against one of my customers and see how good your engine really is, when you beat one of mine then you can really say you have arrived and I\'ll take my hat of to you.

[Lil-Steve]

All I can say Carl is :Thumbsup!

[BlitzBoy]

.
The highest terminal on strip with a car so far we have done the engine for is 130mph,so hardly slow,especially since it was not a dedicated drag race car like yours.Notice that terminal is the same as yours.........and all at 1 bar boost not 1.25 like yours.

LOL show me the timing slip

[BlitzBoy]

LOL
We are producing very consistent 500hp plus engines with the same porting at 1 bar boost and obviously higher at 1.3 bar, and with a variation on the porting we are are making nearly 600 hp with some specials, and all on medium sized turbo\'s

Where are dyno sheets prooving the figures?

[Mir]

So Mark,if you really want to boast then go on circuit against one of my customers and see how good your engine really is, when you beat one of mine then you can really say you have arrived and I\'ll take my hat of to you.

Blitzen, if someone says this to me, I will never back down even if I know I will lose :3gears-rh

Come on man, Carl has made an open challenge, You can not afford to reject it...

I will personally come and watch the race and I am even willing to put some money down on you, accept the Challenge :Ladys-man

Carl, No disrespect, I am just making Mark tempted regarding the race :Thumbs-up

So Mark, do you accept the challenge?

Mir

[BlitzBoy]

. Oh and if you need proof then just look at race results where cars with 700hp + are being beaten on track regularly.

Well done having a decent driver and nicely setup car also helps, you have come a long way since the dark days of that Brunswick car in the Dubai 24hours which the fiestas were faster lapping.

If had a the cash and the driving skills (which I gladly admit I dont have either) I would gladly get involved in circuit racing