Ignition on a 13B

[Grant Monkhouse]

Nik was every speed limit on the way home 30mph? Lol

As when my engine blew it ran Like a bag off arse.

[Nik da Greek]

Lol. Funny boy. :p

Yeah, mine ran like a bag of arse, too. Gave me a lot of faith in the dyno operator when he told me it was only that the plugs were dirty and it should clear in a few miles :rolleyes:. I was annoyed enough that I honestly didn\'t care if what was left of the car blew up too, so I just smashed the grannny out of it all the way home. When they break a tip the faster you get them spinning, the better they seem to run. I guess it\'s all the centrifugal force spinning what\'s left out and sealing better. That may be borrocks of course, just my own guess.

Mind you, the last time it went it done all three tips on one rotor and trashed both plates and the housing and still ran up to around 60mph :cool. Hell of a job getting it to pull away though

[B.Martin]

Nik doesn\'t just kill his engines... He dececrates them!!

[12at]

I have on my oldschool mazda a microtech lt10s with 4 bosch coils and it has made over 400rwhp through an auto with a gt35r on 20psi
 
I did have a dynatek cdi + coil set up on my half bridge 12a with a microtech that made just over 300 on 9psi and it was fine.
 
new ecu ive gone is haltech ps1000 with 4 AEM direct fire with inbuilt ignitor and the guys i bought them off have seen good fuel burning and running with over 25psi..
 
There is a few cars in australia running the dynatek cdi - 2 to note is the highest pump fuel car from Race Only with 703rwhp on pump fuel and water injection and another of their customers in the 500s using the leading only CDI.
 
All depends on your money and what you want out of it.. My advice is do it right the first time and you will save yourself with issues later on.

[Grant Monkhouse]

I have on my oldschool mazda a microtech lt10s with 4 bosch coils and it has made over 400rwhp through an auto with a gt35r on 20psi
 
I did have a dynatek cdi + coil set up on my half bridge 12a with a microtech that made just over 300 on 9psi and it was fine.
 
new ecu ive gone is haltech ps1000 with 4 AEM direct fire with inbuilt ignitor and the guys i bought them off have seen good fuel burning and running with over 25psi..
 
There is a few cars in australia running the dynatek cdi - 2 to note is the highest pump fuel car from Race Only with 703rwhp on pump fuel and water injection and another of their customers in the 500s using the leading only CDI.

All depends on your money and what you want out of it.. My advice is do it right the first time and you will save yourself with issues later on.

Yes I agree about doing it right once, but as blitz has pointed out I\'m only shooting for 450hp at the moment and so residing the standard ignition using the twin power will be the best way for me to go at the moment. I can get any type of cable cheap for the rewire and in larger sizes to reduce the resistance of the cables etc.

Have you seen the MSD system I found through the link on the first page? That looks like a good way to go using MSD pack and blaster coils and doesn\'t seem too expensive. Just £350 for the MSD unit.

I could build a better system whilst the car is using the twin power and then swap them out and sell the the twin power on as they will become quite rare due to them nit being available through vendors over here any more but have to be imported from Japan due to their cutbacks.

[jackaleks]

how does a twin power actually work? it looks like it just piggy backs on the standard system so can\'t be a capacitive discharge? what does it do?
 
shop around for MSD stuff, i\'ve seen prices for the 6A (their base level CDI ignition) from £200-£350. blaster coils seem to be £50 each.
 
MSD\'s multi-spark thing sounds cool, but doesn\'t actually do anything in high load/revs, it only works up to a certain RPM.
 
from what i understand the big advantage to CDI over inductive ignition is the fact that they don\'t have a \'charge\' time and release a high energy short duration spark, compare to an inductive coil which discharges over a longer period of time and has to rebuild the charge in the coil.
 
i want an MSD system, not out of necessity but because i\'m a parts whore and i like shiny stickers

[turbotoaster]

has anyone seen a either a wiring diagram or some pics of people who are running aftermarket igntion on a power fc, the only one i know of currently is dragons rat look rx7, been thinking of taking it there with my system and having him join the dots since hes done it in the past as my wiring skills arnt that great

[Prof]

how does a twin power actually work? it looks like it just piggy backs on the standard system so can\'t be a capacitive discharge? what does it do?
 
shop around for MSD stuff, i\'ve seen prices for the 6A (their base level CDI ignition) from £200-£350. blaster coils seem to be £50 each.
 
MSD\'s multi-spark thing sounds cool, but doesn\'t actually do anything in high load/revs, it only works up to a certain RPM.
 
from what i understand the big advantage to CDI over inductive ignition is the fact that they don\'t have a \'charge\' time and release a high energy short duration spark, compare to an inductive coil which discharges over a longer period of time and has to rebuild the charge in the coil.
 
i want an MSD system, not out of necessity but because i\'m a parts whore and i like shiny stickers

 
Spot on with your descripton of capacitive verses inductive - except that there is a charge time - it\'s just much quicker to charge but requires a lot of additional circuitry to charge the caps up to several hundred volts.
 
The inductive system used on most cars,  uses the dwell time to charge the coil - charging time is based on coil resistance / battery voltage, but the final ignition voltage is a function of the switch off time of the charge signal, the charge duration equates to how long the spark will last - what the twinspark appears to do is \'shape\' this switch off waveform by cutting off the charge much quicker, and it also uses a capacitor to assist in \'boosting\' the voltage to the coil, delivering a little more energy
 
One way to get more out of the stock coils would be to boost the voltage used to charge the coil during ignition time - you could use one of those fuel pump boosters for that - but care would have to be taken to protect the booster from the large primary spike (400v).

[Grant Monkhouse]

how does a twin power actually work? it looks like it just piggy backs on the standard system so can\'t be a capacitive discharge? what does it do?
 
shop around for MSD stuff, i\'ve seen prices for the 6A (their base level CDI ignition) from £200-£350. blaster coils seem to be £50 each.
 
MSD\'s multi-spark thing sounds cool, but doesn\'t actually do anything in high load/revs, it only works up to a certain RPM.
 
from what i understand the big advantage to CDI over inductive ignition is the fact that they don\'t have a \'charge\' time and release a high energy short duration spark, compare to an inductive coil which discharges over a longer period of time and has to rebuild the charge in the coil.
 
i want an MSD system, not out of necessity but because i\'m a parts whore and i like shiny stickers

check this out if you want an MSD system,
 
http://www.smbaker.com/sand-rail/mazda-rotary-conversion/msd-6a-direct-fire-ignition-for-mazda-rx-7-rotary-engine
 
found it whilst searching for ignition systems, seems right up your street and uses the 6A MSD system

[PGiljevic]

You forgot Uncle Era, Mark. Ohhh, yes. Banned, then :rollin

I dunno why people try to find esoteric (and fearsomely expensive) solutions to FD ignition when as you\'ve already said, good stock equipment and a twin power are plenty for 99% of applications. I found this out kinda the hard way. What did my car lose when we uplugged the twin power? Something like sixty horsepower, wasn\'t it? Mind you, I think it was down to one rotor by then :rollin

EDIT, sorry, just saw the "old one" lurking in there amidst you review of Mr Haywards\' achievements :o Still, we don\'t need any of them, Rice Racing KNOWS EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERYTHING and if he doesn\'t he\'ll SHOUT until we\'re all convinced he does

:rolleyes:

[PGiljevic]

As a few people will know I am going to be running a 13B bridge ported turbo engine in my car, with fuel injection.

Now as I\'m Getting closer to where I need to sort the wiring for the stand alone I want to know what to do with my ignition. I have already bought an hks twin power so I can basically take the ignition set up from an FD and run it with my engine.

I am also wanting to run W/I with my setup so need something that can handle this.

The easy answer is to just use the twin power, but I have been told about using LS coils as you don\'t need to have an ignighter and provide a good spark for the WI.

I know I should use the search function but if I don\'t know where to start I don\'t know what I\'m looking for.

Only a decent CDI system will run this properly.

I have proven the Crane Hi 6 and LX92 combo works, as copied by Dragon and many others.

I have also pioneered the Dynatek ARC-2 and 0.5 ohm coils, again copied by many.

^ You can do this cheaply and run leads, it will work and will be reliable, and deliver more spark (proven by me) than any other commercially available constant duty CDI unit. You can get others that sticker up to deliver more but when you test them they do not deliver the voltage nor the current at the plug, and to add insult to injury they cant be used for constant use :WaveBye

No inductive ign will run WI and proper fuel mixtures in a rotary combustion chamber, you will always need to doctor the tuning around the ign system limitation. So I strongly advise against ghetto non CDI systems.

[Prof]

No inductive ign will run WI and proper fuel mixtures in a rotary combustion chamber, you will always need to doctor the tuning around the ign system limitation. So I strongly advise against ghetto non CDI systems.

What exactly is the issue with inductive ?
 
Have you any information that shows why an inductive system can\'t be used - e.g. insufficient spark voltage / spark energy / duration of spark  - what is the limitation that you speak of?
 
Not knocking - just after information :cheers

[PGiljevic]

how does a twin power actually work? it looks like it just piggy backs on the standard system so can\'t be a capacitive discharge? what does it do?
 
shop around for MSD stuff, i\'ve seen prices for the 6A (their base level CDI ignition) from £200-£350. blaster coils seem to be £50 each.
 
MSD\'s multi-spark thing sounds cool, but doesn\'t actually do anything in high load/revs, it only works up to a certain RPM.
 
from what i understand the big advantage to CDI over inductive ignition is the fact that they don\'t have a \'charge\' time and release a high energy short duration spark, compare to an inductive coil which discharges over a longer period of time and has to rebuild the charge in the coil.
 
i want an MSD system, not out of necessity but because i\'m a parts whore and i like shiny stickers

ALL CDI\'s (good ones) have multi strike (up to 3000rpm), they do this cause CDI have a shorter burn time (I measure them at 420usec on average), the multiple discharge ensure more complete combustion at very low rpm and allows more stable idle and operation on a wider range of air fuel mixtures. You can turn off the multi strike and see the effect on Hc, CO, especially on a 4 gas.

After ~3000rpm the time to fire 420usec V\'s ~1.5 msec for inductive is not an issue and there is little difference in the end result of what you measure in the tail pipe all things being equal. It\'s the CDI vastly quicker build up time that gives vastly superior complete combustion and power and ability to fire anything in the chamber regardless of WI rate or excess fuel supply that DOMINATES it over inferior inductive. You will always make more power on CDI on a rotary than you will with Inductive (regadless of how high you boost the primary voltage or if you try to relicate the secondary voltage through a higher turns ratio in the coil. A CDI is a vastly more superior set up in high chamber pressure environment, will make more power, run all types of plugs (no need to change out warm up plugs! to race plugs!) and is trouble free (pick the right system!).

If you need to know anything more feel free to E-Mail me.

[PGiljevic]

What exactly is the issue with inductive ?
 
Have you any information that shows why an inductive system can\'t be used - e.g. insufficient spark voltage / spark energy / duration of spark  - what is the limitation that you speak of?
 
Not knocking - just after information :cheers

Inductive uses the ign coil as a inductor (magnetic induction) there is a large time needed to build up sufficient energy in the coil, it as a result lacks time to deliver full energy at higher duty cycles, it also is very hard on the ign coil (lots of heat) ....... too high a saturation time will destroy the coil. the second problem is the type of spark produced has a lower energy over an unecessary long duration (as mentioned in my last post) which is not conducive to proper combustion at high speed and high pressure.

A CDI system used the coil as a step up transformer. Feeding it with 450 volts, dumping its energy from a capacitor, it has a very sharp and high engery discharge (hugh intense spark of shorter duration) this provides proven higher horsepower in rotarys and turbo cars. It suffers from no coil time limitations, or over heating either. For a high HP racing application CDI is superior, you can get as much true measured ignition capacity as a magneto system! and be as reliable as well

Hope this helps.

I use RICESP as a daily driver with my CDI system I implemented, on race plugs, starting in -5 deg C weather first crank!, no need to change plug heat range, works with all AFR settings and WI settings. try to do thw same with a HKS twin power or any Inductive set up and you will be dreaming

[Mir]

So Pete, having read above, If I were to ask you to give me a break down of the BEST ignition system (which off course must work with WI), what would be your answer?

What coils, CDIs, etc etc

Mir