Ignition on a 13B

[rx7boy]

There is another type of ignition system - which can work with eithe CDI or Inductive types, which feeds a high voltage high current feed to the spark plug electrode, but the voltage isn\'t sufficient to fire it.  It\'s isolated from the ignition by a high voltage diode.
 
The idea is that the stock system creates the spark because it can push a high enough voltage to ionize the fuel/air mix, then the plasma phase of the ignition is fed from the high voltage supply through the diode, since a much lower voltage is required to maintain the \'burn\'.
 
This system is rather like a HID inverter or flourescent tube driver.  It means the requirements for the ignition strike circuit can easily be met by either design, since the strike voltage is just switch off time (inductive) or capacitor voltage (CDI) and the length of spark is as long as you want it to be (settable by an ECU or external igniton control).
 
PROS:
 
Does away with the need for multispark in CDI
Allows plasma phase burn time to be fully controlled
Doesn\'t suffer high RPM dropoff
Can use either Inductive or Capacitive ignition circuit since it\'s only needed to initially fire the spark, not maintain it
 
CONS:
 
More circuitry involved
More complex HT lead setup, means COP (Coil on Plug) can\'t be used
Cost - High voltage blocking diodes are expensive
Dangerous - more HT running around the car engine bay -so care must be taken
 
And before you go flaming me - this is genuine and patented idea - not mine - but I\'ve seen it work in practice - system even has enough energy to create a spark in liquid water !

I was waiting for someone to post about this. As stated earlier in the thread I will be using LS3 coils which have the igniter built in, one downside is due to charge time you can\'t run them as wasted spark. So to overcome this Im running the leading wires to each coil and only running a pair of plugs (only leading and no trailing)

In addition to the above I will be using a SparkAmp- Explained above by Prof, uses a high current/low voltage supply to form a plasma arc piggy backing the original spark. it has been supplied by aquapulsar
I wont know the results of this system for a while as my project is on stand by whilst I move home :Grrr

If anyone wants any information on this system then feel free to email me, its a bit overkill for most application, however can be using with the original wasted spark ignition if you choose. The reason I chose to use it is I like trying new ideas.

[jackaleks]

There is another type of ignition system - which can work with eithe CDI or Inductive types, which feeds a high voltage high current feed to the spark plug electrode, but the voltage isn\'t sufficient to fire it.  It\'s isolated from the ignition by a high voltage diode.
 

are you talking about systems like Aquapulsar?

the demo of this stuff looks amazing, kind of like a little Tesla coil in your combustion chamber.

on some of the blurb it talks about converting more of the suspended fuel, air and water molecules into plasma. it\'d be cool to see one of these systems on a rotary.

[jackaleks]

^^lol, should\'ve read all the posts in the thread before going for the \'reply\' button :2Rolleyes

[Prof]

^^lol, should\'ve read all the posts in the thread before going for the \'reply\' button :2Rolleyes

This thread moves so quick at times you\'ve replied before the questions been asked sometimes :Giggle:Giggle

[turbotoaster]

does anyone know the output of the stock system, im sure i read somewhere it was 60mj, can anyone confirm?

[m1tch]

This is how Mazda sorted the issue... 3 plugs!

[Grant Monkhouse]

yes mitch that is how they did it but that is in an NA engine, were talking high boosted and WI engines where the internal pressures actually "blow out" the spark and the mixtures dont ignite properly or not at all.

[Grant Monkhouse]

are you talking about systems like Aquapulsar?
 
the demo of this stuff looks amazing, kind of like a little Tesla coil in your combustion chamber.
 
on some of the blurb it talks about converting more of the suspended fuel, air and water molecules into plasma. it\'d be cool to see one of these systems on a rotary.

would converting the suspended mixture into plasma not increase they cylinder temperatures really high?
 
as plasma is very hot, well it is on a plasma cutter.
 
i have heard of these plasma ignitions before, im sure there are new cars these days that actually run them, but i may be wrong.

[jackaleks]

would converting the suspended mixture into plasma not increase they cylinder temperatures really high?
 
as plasma is very hot, well it is on a plasma cutter.
 
i have heard of these plasma ignitions before, im sure there are new cars these days that actually run them, but i may be wrong.

your stock ignition is technically still creating plasma, that\'s what  the spark from a plug is. something to do with ionising molecules  suspended between the cathode and electrode so that you get an arc (google Jacob\'s Ladder, i\'m not a physicist so i don\'t really understand it :2Rolleyes).

i have no idea how the Aquapulsar set up works, there\'s some electrical jiggary pokery going on there waaaay beyond my small brain, but it looks cool. Dale\'s made the jump though and hopefully he\'ll get it working!

[Miki]

i have no idea how the Aquapulsar set up works, there\'s some electrical jiggary pokery going on there waaaay beyond my small brain, but it looks cool. Dale\'s made the jump though and hopefully he\'ll get it working!

Well, concept looks really simple. Stock ignition is used to initiate spark and plasma box feeds high energy DC discharge from capacitor - directly, without stepping up voltage in transformer. It could work really simple, without any additional electronics. Voltage from capacitor is not high enough to initiate spark, but once spark is established, capacitor discharges.
Box probably consists from some DC/AC convertor and voltage is stepped up in transformer to feed capacitor. And high voltage diode for keeping this circuit safe from stock ignition trying to ground the HV pulse somewhere else then it should occur:rollin

Technology is proved and numerously patented, it should work:bandit

[Prof]

Yep - basically works like a flashgun - store high voltage energy in a capacitor bank - the \'air\' gap in the spark plug stops the charge from dissipating, along with a blocking diode to stop it grounding out on the coil secondary.
 
When the spark plug fires, the gas mixture becomes conductive, and the capacitor bank can discharge through the diode into the now conducting spark plug - creating a hotter and more consistent plasma phase.
 
It\'s only the mixture between the contacts and the immediate area that becomes plasma - the rest of the mixture will burn normally, but will be better ignited by the plasma.
 
It doesn\'t need to be capacitors either - you can use a step up generator with sufficient power - it\'s only going to be conducting once the spark is triggered, you just need a way to switch it off.

[turbotoaster]

well ive emailed them, and they are gonna give me a list of whats required and show me how it would be wired in.

from factory since you only have one leading coil does it run in wasted spark?

that would help work out whats needed

[philiwily]

The factory leading coil is a wasted spark set up.

[turbotoaster]

well on the plasma front, like people said its not super new technology and i first heard about from japan

okada projects looks interesting, i asked touge distribution to get me some more info on them last year but didnt hear anything back

[Prof]

well ive emailed them, and they are gonna give me a list of whats required and show me how it would be wired in.
 
from factory since you only have one leading coil does it run in wasted spark?
 
that would help work out whats needed

Leading is wasted spark, but trailings fire alternately on a single channel - not wasted spark (due to late timing, wasted spark would fire early in a compression cycle if used on trailing).  I was trying to work out what would be needed for this on a rotary - be interesting to see what you get back from them.