Why you MUST Pre-Mix.

[AshRX]

Will do Ann as hopefully this will put a lot of peoples minds at rest

[seanp]

easiest thing is if your engine does go like this then Mazda are bound to replace the engine free of charge as an engine shouldnt go with circa 50k miles on it. We have 63k on ours and its never missed a beat and everytime its been serviced it always comes back with a clean bill of health with no problems ever.

If Mazda know of these problems then legally they are bound to inform the customer as per Sean above. I\'ll pop down to Mazda tomorrow and ask them, if they say its rubbish then thats good enough for me

Quite a few peeps have had to stump up a good %age for engine replacements, unless you have a *very* good dealer relationship (i.e. one who does all the pushing for you), and a exemplary (and recorded) service history. Otherwise you\'re in for Mazdas \'good will\' scheme or on your own

I don\'t agree it\'s correct -- and I think I\'d fight tooth and nail too, if it failed anytime soon (or anything under 100K)! Especially since they seem to have extended the US engine warranty, but not EU in line.

As for asking them -- some of \'em don\'t even know the correct oil type or at least think that ONLY their over-priced stuff is acceptable, though we all know the truth

[seanp]

Will do Ann as hopefully this will put a lot of peoples minds at rest

Indeed I would be interested -- sorry about the diatribe above -- in a bad mood about other things right now :spank

[RX-8888]

Oh dear, like Nick, looks like you\'re saying I\'ve missed the boat here too -- 51K miles, and no premix? :2Rolleyes

Driven every day since new, always topped up with oil, always warmed up well, and revved to 9K in every gear thereafter... :3gears-rh

Therefore, I\'ll take your \'advice\' with a pinch of salt, because even though you\'re saying the R3 obviously fixes this terminal problem with an extra oil injector per rotor -- you still reckon you need to add the snake-oil to your fuel. How come? :xconfused

Or maybe I\'ll take you up on it -- ask Mazda for a new engine, because mine\'s obviously buggered now, and start adding some pre-mix... I\'ll also get one of those electric (or even non-driven) \'superchargers\', maybe some fuel-line magnets and a resistor from fleaBay and improve both the HP *and* MPG by a shed-load too! :rolleyes: :Hammer

There\'s plenty of \'8s that have 100K+ miles on them, with no signs of problems, and I don\'t believe that nearly 1/3rd of \'8s have engine failure (certainly not in the UK!).

Of course, we do happen to see a condensed view on these forums, because it\'s the first place people come when they have a problem.

I do also believe the majority of the failures are down to owner ignorance with oil top-ups and probably rarely taking it over 4000RPM, and there are probably a handful of Friday-afternoon lemons in there too.

I\'m convinced that if there was a large-scale problem, and premix was the answer, I\'d have had a letter from Mazda by now? OK, well maybe not considering how they handled the oil-cooler pipes issue

Care to post this advice over on //www.rx8ownersclub.co.uk too?

Gee you are a sarcastic one....

The reason I will continue to pre-mix as it won\'t hurt my 09 RX-8..it only has benefits, and I know Mazda, they are very conservative with their MOP rates, look at all the flashes done to PCM for Series I.
I also look at the amount of engine oil my 8 is using and it ain\'t much.

\'Snake oil\'...NO it is a Lubricant just like Mowers and Bikes (2 Stroke), the rotary is in theory a 2 Stroke, that is why OIL is required by the MOP to LUBRICATE Apex seals.

You can believe ALL that you want mate....Frankly I do not care what you think...just don\'t be ignorant, look at other WORLD Sites for both RX-8 and RX-7..the principals are identical.

At the moment there are 360 engines being replaced every month in the US,
our US club has a member who works at the new US reman plant, he posts info ALL the time.

Yes, it was only a year or so ago Mazda UK said there was not many engine replacements, yeah right. Since then there have been UK owners who have had failures.

You have to remember the US owners do far more miles than you guys in the UK so their engine have done a lot more work.

As I said before Mazda will NEVER tell you to add pre-mix into your fuel...I wonder why...think about it...

Why do ALL racing rotaries add oil to fuel? at a ratio much greater than suggested here, they also remove the MOP because they are inefficient.

BTW, My dealer in Australia (where I once worked) and where I bought my RX-8 last year has replaced 14 engines, they sell around 40 new Mazda\'s a month.

Mazda Australia are also setting up a reman facility at a Queensland dealer because the cost of putting Brand New one\'s in is too great.
BTW the old engines were going in the Dumpster, now they will go up to Queensland for a rebuild...this is happening as I speak.

So, I guess UK or MME will be doing similar.

[RX-8888]

easiest thing is if your engine does go like this then Mazda are bound to replace the engine free of charge as an engine shouldnt go with circa 50k miles on it. We have 63k on ours and its never missed a beat and everytime its been serviced it always comes back with a clean bill of health with no problems ever.

If Mazda know of these problems then legally they are bound to inform the customer as per Sean above. I\'ll pop down to Mazda tomorrow and ask them, if they say its rubbish then thats good enough for me

OMG, for a person who has the same Christian name as me , don\'t be so naive, of course your dealer is going to say there is not a problem...

OPEN YOUR EYES....LOOK AROUND..

You are not Special in the UK, every country has had the same issue, FAILED COMPRESSIONS, dues to STUFFED APEX SEALS (lubricant), or Broken Side Seal and or Carbon build up..

You POMS make me Laugh

[AshRX]

I have the same Christian name as you? So what

The dealer that does the work on the 8\'s round my way is a good friend of mine and he has NEVER heard of this. Maybe your saying this as you have bad luck with yours but funny how not one 8 that was bought from this dealership ( biggest in Essex ) has NEVER had an engine back and every single RX8 is still running strong that they have sold.

I am not disagreeing with you on carbon build up as most 8 owners realise they need to give the engine a good thrashing but the dealers here have never heard of this oil problem.


I think this might be a good idea for Clive to speak to Mazda HQ directly as he has a very good relationship with them.

[RX-8888]

INDEED!

Well I suggest you take a look through other Rotary Websites outside of the UK and Bone Up on it.

An no I have not had "Bad Luck" with mine, I actually never said anything to the contrary.

I fact in my 35 years of Driving and Owning all types of Mazda\'s and Working for them for 15 years plus I think I have some sort of "experience" with rotaries.
From a New 10A RX-3, to 13B RX-5 and RX-8. And demo RX-7\'s (all Gen).

The "Oil Problem" to repeat it again is to do with the MOP (Metering Oil PUMP), your RX-8 has 2 injectors for each housing, the 2009 RX-8\'s have 3, an extra one in the middle.
So why would it not be an issue if Mazda did not add an extra 2 oil Nozzles?

If your mate is so Knowledgeable Ask Him, Why has Mazda changes their entire Oil Metering Set up from one mechanical OMP to now two Electromagnetic MOP\'s, one pump supplies the original 4 nozzles and the other the new 2 ones.

And Why have Mazda changes the Main Engine OIL PUMP to a more robust and High Pressure Type?..

If he can\'t give you the answer then I suggest he should "Learn" why.

Yes, I have given Clive some information a few years back on the Synthetic Oil debate and heds up on the Engine Replacements, Mazda UK\'s reply was there was not a problem, just like today, so why are so many engines being replaced?..

10 a day in the US, so if you work out averages for the 80 mil populous in the UK, about 4% or 12 a month for the UK.

Would you like me to have My Dealer\'s Parts Manager to email you on how many engines (14) they have replace at the Edwardstown, South Australian Mazda Branch?.

Here is a pic of the new Series II RENESIS Rotor Housing and the 3 Oil Nozzles, see the "Leading" new one in the middle, that lubricates the middle of the Apex Seals, or perhaps you think it is there for another reason?

BTW: Keeping your engine oil FULL (Topped OFF) is a good idea but has nothing to do with the actual operation or efficiency of the single MOP.

Pre-Mix will greatly assist your lubrication of the Middle part of the Apex Seal, there is NO other way to do it.

[RX-8888]

Here is a list of ALL the Mechanical Changes to the New RX-8 (R3).

And a link to my thread on the issues in more detail ( I am ASH8 user)

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=161665


New Powertrain Control Module (PCM)
New Larger Genuine Oil Filter and Repositioned On Front Timing Cover Housing To-wards The Sump (Left Hand Side).
Revised Oil Filler and Dip Stick (Longer Type).
New EMOP "Electric Metering Oil Pumps" Two of them. (Used for the first time by Mazda)
One Additional Oil Injection Nozzle per Rotor Housing..Totalling 6.
New Oil Pump Assembly.
New Oil Pressure Sensor (Located on #1 EMOP).
Larger Oil Sump Capacity.
New Hex (8mm) Type Sump Drain Plug.
Internal Sump Pan Magnet (last used in the 89 FC RX-7)
New External Silver Plate Engine Sump Guard.
Revised 4 Fuel Injection Nozzles (2 Primary, 2 Secondary). (Series I six Port Engine had 6 FI Nozzles).
Revised Atmospheric Air Control Solenoid (Near Throttle Body)
New Fuel Pump.
New Radiator Electric Fan Motors.
Revised Radiator Fans Speeds from 2 to 3 Speeds. (Low, Middle, High).
New Alternator.
New Starter Motor.
New Battery 80D26L. (80 AMP Hour) (Was 50D22L (50AH) or 75D26L (75AH) in Series I)
New Exhaust System.
New Yaw Rate Sensor Unit.
New Air Conditioner Temperature Controller (Amplifier).
New Bridgestone RE050A\'s in 18" and 19" (R3).
New Manual Transmission (6 speed MX-5/Miata) (Reverse is now next to 1st gear not next to 6th gear).
New Differential Ratio (Manual).
New Differential Fixing Plate Washer on PPF (Power Plant Frame).
Changed Throw Out Bearing (Thrust or Fork Bearing).
Larger Oil Coolers and Intakes.
Extra Rotor Knock Sensor (Now 1 per Rotor, Total Of 2).
New Water Pump/ New Timing Cover to suit.
New Water Pump Pulley.
New Spark Plug Leads.
New Alternator/Air Compressor Drive Belts.
Revised Eccentric Shaft (Crankshaft) Pulley.
Revised Oxygen Sensor (CAT).
Revised Air/Fuel Ratio Sensor (Exhaust Manifold).
New Air Pump Control Unit.
New One Piece Trans Tunnel Heat Shield (Previously Two Piece).
New Under Body Covers Reducing C Drag from 0.31 to now 0.30.
Larger Fuel Tank (5 litres extra or around a gallon).
New Dynamic Stability Control (DSC) Hydraulic Unit Control Module.
New Rear Suspension Control Links (Rods) Upper/Lower and Trailing have Increased In Diameter.
New Rear Stabilizer Bar.
New Rear Shocks And Springs.
New Rear Parking Brake Cables.
New ABS Wheel Sensors (All 4 Wheels).
Revised TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitoring System) US Only.
New Front Upper And Front Lower Suspension Arms (Wishbone).
New Front Steering Knuckles And Wheel Hubs.
Revised Power Steering Control System Unit.
Revised Headlamp Auto Leveling Sensors.
New 3 Piece (Instead of 2) Strut Tower Brace (Manual Only), Auto\'s Retains Two Piece Tower Brace.
Revised Rear Wheel Arch Splash Guards/Shields.
Thicker (Heavier Guage) Steel On The Two Front Strut Towers.
Additional Spot Weldings Around Both Door Openings For Increased Rigidity.
Stiffened Body Shell = Torsional (twisting) and Flexural (bending) Rigidity have been increased by 5.4 and 8.7 per cent respectively.
Auto\'s and Manual\'s both have 6 port engines, Max Power RPM (kw) has been limited to 7500 for Auto compared to 8200 RPM for the manual.

[CharlieP]

So....after all that!! Should we add pre-mix to the RX7!?!?!

[AMH]

WTF! You\'ve forgotten the new seats which don\'t have electronic adjustment or a heated leather option - I\'d miss my bum warmer (it\'s cold in the UK you know!)

10 a day in the US, so if you work out averages for the 80 mil populous in the UK, about 4% or 12 a month for the UK.

Would you like me to have My Dealer\'s Parts Manager to email you on how many engines (14) they have replace at the Edwardstown, South Australian Mazda Branch?.

You\'re not getting it are you - these so called facts and figures are all very interesting but we\'re in the UK so with all due respect we don\'t really care what\'s happening in the US or OZ.

There are so many variables plus we can\'t validate any of this data properly. If my dealer, who I\'ve been with for 15 years, and who were the largest dealer in Europe, tells me to do or not do something then I will, and if I get a letter from Mazda I\'ll do the same. I know so many people with RX-8\'s and I\'ve never heard of this or anyone having an engine failure for this reason.

If you don\'t like it tough - you\'re not going to help me out if my engine goes bang are you?

[seanp]

The reason I will continue to pre-mix as it won\'t hurt my 09 RX-8..it only has benefits, and I know Mazda, they are very conservative with their MOP rates, look at all the flashes done to PCM for Series I.
I also look at the amount of engine oil my 8 is using and it ain\'t much.

I see, your monitoring of your oil level usage (which is probably no more accurate than seeing the dip-stick level reduce every x000 miles and adding half a litre?) overrides all of the R&D that Mazda have carried out, statistics and evidence they\'ve collected etc., re-designing, re-tooling all at great expense, and obviously shouldn\'t have bothered with because they\'ve quite simply got it wrong (again!) :2Confused

\'Snake oil\'...NO it is a Lubricant just like Mowers and Bikes (2 Stroke), the rotary is in theory a 2 Stroke, that is why OIL is required by the MOP to LUBRICATE Apex seals.

But it\'s NOT a two-stroke! It\'s also not a V8, Diesel etc., which all have different design and lubrication requirements. (Hint the principal is similar to two-stroke, the design boundaries and execution are rather different!)
Which is why they provide Oil metering in the first place, rather than leaving it out and depending on a more inaccurate method of putting an additive into the fuel mix, at some difficult to judge ratio (and changing in your case!)

You can believe ALL that you want mate....Frankly I do not care what you think...just don\'t be ignorant, look at other WORLD Sites for both RX-8 and RX-7..the principals are identical.

I do, I also don\'t try to preach my religion, whatever it may be, to others through supposition.

At the moment there are 360 engines being replaced every month in the US, our US club has a member who works at the new US reman plant, he posts info ALL the time.

Wow, that\'s a nice, consistent rate. Out of how many sales?

Yes, it was only a year or so ago Mazda UK said there was not many engine replacements, yeah right.

Did they, to you? They were probably correct, given the number in existence?

Since then there have been UK owners who have had failures.

Since then there have been UK owners who have not had failures (I being one).

(What were you trying to say - UK owners have ONLY had failures in the past year? That\'s incorrect too.)

You have to remember the US owners do far more miles than you guys in the UK so their engine have done a lot more work.

Says who? All of them do more mileage than me?

As I said before Mazda will NEVER tell you to add pre-mix into your fuel...I wonder why...

I haven\'t said it before, but Mazda would NEVER tell you to add sugar to your fuel... I wonder why...

think about it...

Please, help me -- seriously, why?

(IMO, if there were a real benefit, it would most definitely be in Mazda\'s interest to say so, and insist on the additives; there\'d be a huge cost benefit with not having to cover engine replacements under warranty / good-will, and they\'d also turn the sales of the additive into a cash-cow, like their oil
Communicating the fact to their existing owners, many of whom are completely ignorant to the requirement of topping up oil at all, [the biggest cause of engine failures according to the dealers we\'ve talked to here in the UK])

Why do ALL racing rotaries add oil to fuel? at a ratio much greater than suggested here, they also remove the MOP because they are inefficient.

Oh, so, now we\'re all to treat our motors as racing cars now, are we? That also means I definintely need to uprate my suspension, zorst, tyres, roll-cage, remove excessive weight etc. etc, because ALL (well, most) will do that too?
Different context, mate; similar things are done to racing pot engines too (including dry-sumping, and oil metering, ironically!)

BTW, My dealer in Australia (where I once worked) and where I bought my RX-8 last year has replaced 14 engines, they sell around 40 new Mazda\'s a month.

Figures of one dealer are nothing to go on -- perhaps they have a lot of ignorant buyers?

Mazda Australia are also setting up a reman facility at a Queensland dealer because the cost of putting Brand New one\'s in is too great.
BTW the old engines were going in the Dumpster, now they will go up to Queensland for a rebuild...this is happening as I speak.

So, I guess UK or MME will be doing similar.

No doubt -- it makes sense to bring rebuilding onto shore as market forces will dictate there will be more engines to rebuild through time, and Mazda make the kits and skills available to be able to do so. Much cheaper than shipping them back to Japan, and much \'greener\' to be seen to \'recycle\' than to dump? I\'d be surprised if a similar pattern was not followed in early history of previous generation engines?

I simply find your proposal illogical, and you fail to cite any real facts which would convince me otherwise (and that convincing, BTW, would actually need to come from Mazda UK, not yourself).

You cite that because I\'ve done >50K miles I\'m doomed because I didn\'t use pre-mix, and there\'s no point in starting now, I\'m already doomed. Where\'s the facts to back that up? Why an arbitrary number? Why not 51K, 60K, 55,555.5 miles?

You proposed that because YOU put an additive in, we all MUST? Why?

You cite this is because Mazda have incorrectly designed the oil metering; yet they\'ve addressed this in the R3 and you STILL insist on pre-mix. Why?

etc. etc. etc.

[HaywardRotary]

In my local dealership they have quite a number of RX8\'s that are over 150,000 miles on original engine\'s that are not running premix. They have had only one engine failure out of over 400 RX8\'s sold,and that was due to the car not being serviced from new for 14,000 miles.Not really Mazda\'s fault.
Most of these cars are early ones with two oil metering feeds to the rotor housings.

Regards
Carl

[RX-8888]

WTF! You\'ve forgotten the new seats which don\'t have electronic adjustment or a heated leather option - I\'d miss my bum warmer (it\'s cold in the UK you know!)

You\'re not getting it are you - these so called facts and figures are all very interesting but we\'re in the UK so with all due respect we don\'t really care what\'s happening in the US or OZ.

There are so many variables plus we can\'t validate any of this data properly. If my dealer, who I\'ve been with for 15 years, and who were the largest dealer in Europe, tells me to do or not do something then I will, and if I get a letter from Mazda I\'ll do the same. I know so many people with RX-8\'s and I\'ve never heard of this or anyone having an engine failure for this reason.

If you don\'t like it tough - you\'re not going to help me out if my engine goes bang are you?

I thought Forums are for Advice and to hopefully to learn something.

With RESPECT it is obvious you do not like it, and you can Stick your head in the sand..."you have never heard of an engine failure for what reason" you really do not know what you are talking about do you.

Your naivety concerning Dealers is astounding, they will not admit to anything.

So in your "expert" opinion what is happening to the RX-8 engine that have been replaced in the UK, why, OH that is correct the dealer says it is an Owners fault don\'t they. forgot to add oil..how gullible are you.

Why has Mazda comprehensively changed all the MOP (Metering Oil Pump) on 2009 RX-8\'s and added the extra oil nozzle? MMMmm, because they just felt like it?

Why did they bother to add it to the UK R3 model then if it was not necessary in the UK?

[CharlieP]

I think everyone needs to chill out....I mean it was originally intended to give people advice, and recommendation!!
 
That said....maybe it was said with a bit too much \'I know all\' attitude

[BlitzBoy]

hey guys take it easy lol

There is a design flaw and the way people drive their 8s with the old model,
It will hit some cars and some cars not, like all other different cars out there.
There is plenty of 8s doing very high mileage FACT
There is 8s in the UK they have had engine failures FACT (seen 5 of the rx8 engines on Reworx\'s floor failed with low compression and carbon build up)

Will Premix help the old 8s reliability Probably but if your engine does fail the dealers will replace the engine anyway.

If your dealer tells you to do follow guidlines but your engine still fails, your dealer will replace if for you, so why worry about adding premix??

Just remember if you do want to add premix it has to be in small amounts 20 ml per ten litres anymore you are killing the octane of the fuel and the knock sensors will retard the ignition and you will lose power.

In my 7 I dont run an OMP I run premix, as the one nozzle in the middle of the housing wont lube enough for my power levels and only lubes the centre part of the seal which is fine for moderate power levels. If you have an FD RX7 which is mostly stock power the water seals will fail long before the apex seals hahaha