Public sector workers strike Wednesday

[jetpilot]

For myself, I found deciding whether to strike or not a difficult decision too. People don\'t work on the ambulances for the great salary....there isn\'t one...they mostly do it because they care and want to make the worst day of someone\'s life (let\'s face it, u don\'t have an ambulance out to u on a good day...the only happy job we have is child birth...as long as it all goes to plan!) a little bit easier and more bearable. However, to loose £3k from my salary in 2 years and to leave my with a very uncertain retirement, where they expect me still to be able to carry 15stone patients down the stairs at 67, I reached the decision that enough was enough. Even if nothing changes I have said "I disagree with this".

I have the utmost respect for the ambulance service after a bike accident in 98, if they hadnt got to me so quickly etc i would have most likely lost my foot at the worst or at the very least had to have it fused had they not been so so excellent with their response! So my hat is off to you Sir. I have a good friend who recently left the paramedics, pretty much due to the reasons outlined above and felt he had no more to offer,  increased politics in the service also didnt help apparently!

However, times are hard, we are all suffering, why should the public sector workforce have any more rights that private sector?

[iaint]

I don\'t really envisage being able to live off £6000 a year in the year 2045. I don\'t really see how I am going to swallow another £1200 annual pay cut having already lost £1200 in the meal break deal (which we did not take industrial action on), or the £800 cut enforced on us with the unsocial hours cut.

On the pension - if you take away your mortgage plus other costs that will be gone when you retire and any work related costs (transport, etc) could you survive on 6k now?  Well, you 6k and your wife\'s pension plus both of your state pensions?

It won\'t be 6k in 2045 because it\'s inflation-linked.


My only issue with pub sec pensions is the disparity between them and private sec pensions and the requirement for most of the schemes to be subsidised from taxation to pay out to retired members.  If they were self-funding from contributions and the fund pot then the terms can be a generous as anything.

The big disparity is not really the top paid people but comparing like-for-like at the low salary end where the provision in private sector is so small you\'d be looking at much less pension a year paying in what you\'re being asked to now.

[jetpilot]

Latest news is they are rethinking the strike action!

[Jojo]

On the pension - if you take away your mortgage plus other costs that will be gone when you retire and any work related costs (transport, etc) could you survive on 6k now? Well, you 6k and your wife\'s pension plus both of your state pensions?

No wife...I\'m a girl...and a girl that likes boys at that!!
 

It won\'t be 6k in 2045 because it\'s inflation-linked.  

Well that doesn\'t bode well if we\'re in another recession by then!! :o
 

My only issue with pub sec pensions is the disparity between them and private sec pensions and the requirement for most of the schemes to be subsidised from taxation to pay out to retired members. If they were self-funding from contributions and the fund pot then the terms can be a generous as anything.
 
The big disparity is not really the top paid people but comparing like-for-like at the low salary end where the provision in private sector is so small you\'d be looking at much less pension a year paying in what you\'re being asked to now.

True, if I worked in the private sector I would indeed have a smaller pension.  I don\'t however, I made the choice to go into the public sector and I was promised this pension scheme as a sweetner to the low salary, unsocial hours and general hazards of long term injury that come with doing the job I do.  Now they are changing those terms.
 
I don\'t think the system is fair at all....in fact I personally believe the people who have got the country into this mess should be the ones taking the hit.....if the bankers wish to put their millions of pounds bonuses into a pension fund for the public sector instead and lessen the contributions made by the tax payer (that\'s me as well...still pay tax and NI contributions myself obviously) to it that\'d be fine by me!!
 
**ducks and runs for cover**
 
This may all now be moot though from what Mr Pilot just said...oh and glad the crew u had were good!

[jetpilot]

True, if I worked in the private sector I would indeed have a smaller pension.  I don\'t however, I made the choice to go into the public sector and I was promised this pension scheme as a sweetner to the low salary, unsocial hours and general hazards of long term injury that come with doing the job I do.  Now they are changing those terms.
 
This may all now be moot though from what Mr Pilot just said...oh and glad the crew u had were good!

Its a job i could never do, so cant praise the paramedics enough!

To play devils advocate though, contracts, pensions, wages, hours, salaries are frequently re-worked in the private sector, when they are, you have the choice, hunt/leave for another job or grin and bear it!

My confusion with the public sector is, it seems like a big % feel they are untouchable from what is currently a massively messed up financial situation, why should it be any different for them/you?

Whilst i dont necessarily agree with such stringent cuts i personally dont feel we could keep borrowing money under the labour gov or we end up lke Greece/Ireland etc

From my small understanding of economics, banking is the countries largest industry, so we need them. Im not sure the banks can be blamed for everything, they are all governed and by all accounts due to the restructure under labour, of the bank of englands ability to control and take action, it was all too late to turn back the tide, even though financiers saw this coming!

Look at Northern Rock, probably the first, bailed out by the gov and now we have just sold part of it to Virgin for 400 million i think, but the tax payer still owns the debt, how does that work?

[Jojo]

This is all fair comment.  I can accept we have to suffer along with everyone else.  The thing is we already have!

[JohnnyP]

The problem is there is no money left to pay Public Sector pensions. It\'s a Ponzi scheme. Your contributions pay for your parents pension, and y/our children pay for yours. Of course this works in the good times, but we are heading into a 20 year recession/depression, and there won\'t be enough contributors to keep the Ponzi going. Traditionally PS workers were paid a lower wage on the promise of a decent final salary pension. In the last decade PS wages are the same or higher than the Private sector, this is unsustainable. The country needs huge private sector growth to afford the payments, not to mention our massive defecit that continues to grow. We need a miracle. If a PS worker contributes 4% of their salary towards their pension, a private sector worker has to put in 40% to receive the same. Even the renegotiated terms of this deal is unaffordable. It\'s much worse than most people realise.

[iaint]

No wife...I\'m a girl...and a girl that likes boys at that!!

:o I\'d have used the term \'significant other\' but I have to beat myself afterwards.
 

Well that doesn\'t bode well if we\'re in another recession by then!! :o

Indeed - unless it\'s so bad we have huge negative inflation and everything falls in price.
 

True, if I worked in the private sector I would indeed have a smaller pension.  I don\'t however, I made the choice to go into the public sector and I was promised this pension scheme as a sweetner to the low salary, unsocial hours and general hazards of long term injury that come with doing the job I do.  Now they are changing those terms.

Terms always change.  When it happens to people in the private sector you take it on the chin or go work elsewhere.  You make a fair point though and striking is one of the options open to you that most private sector workers don;t have.
 

I don\'t think the system is fair at all....in fact I personally believe the people who have got the country into this mess should be the ones taking the hit.....if the bankers wish to put their millions of pounds bonuses into a pension fund for the public sector instead and lessen the contributions made by the tax payer (that\'s me as well...still pay tax and NI contributions myself obviously) to it that\'d be fine by me!!

I know our political classes like us to think this and thus do what we do very well in this country - vent our jealousy on those better off - the reality of our current problems are separate from the banking crisis.

Yes the banking crisis (which is not about greed so much as lending to people who couldn\'t afford it) has given the world economy a hefty nudge but the real issue is one of Sovereign Debt.  UK Plc owes a lot of money.  So much in fact that the interest alone is crippling.  

My view is that the previous government, who had a period of unprecedented economic growth, should not have been splashing the cash around and increasing our debt.  They should have paid it off instead of carrying on like the winter would never come.

None of the current cuts would have been needed if we hadn\'t had 10 years of growing government and profligate spending.

The same goes for many many households.  Me and my wife have had a good last 10 years.  During that time we got rid of all debts apart from our mortgage and that we overpaid whenever we could.  Now we\'re pretty much immune to economic turmoil and aren\'t needing to tighten our belts even though we\'ve both just left our jobs to move to a different part of the country.

We could have spent all our money, re-mortgaged to put a new car on the drive and taken out more credit cards.  If we had we\'d have been deserving of the pain.


Yet we blame the bankers not the politicians who maxed out the countries credit cards...   We\'re lucky the international markets still see us as a safe bet and have cheap national borrowing - we\'d be making Greece look like pocket-change if our borrowing rates were as high as theirs.


Excuse the rant - the whole \'blame the bankers\' thing really gets my goat as it\'s only part of a much deeper issue.

[JohnnyP]

^+1

Except I would argue the banking crisis is very much to do with greed. Bankers make profit from debt; it\'s in their interest for all of us to be in debt and they were only too happy to loan huge sums on self certified mortgages. The politicians loved the house price inflation on their second homes, the public loved withdrawing the equity from their ever rising house prices and the bankers loved the free tax payer money that came their way when they became too big to fail. Sadly since 2008, nothing has been done to fix this and we will crash much harder the second time around.

[Skifledanabit]

going back to an earlier post in this thread, my missus is basically a team leader for a home furnishings store (like the range, but not), she earns about 20% more than her manager who has to do more hours.

[jetpilot]

^+1

Except I would argue the banking crisis is very much to do with greed. Bankers make profit from debt; it\'s in their interest for all of us to be in debt and they were only too happy to loan huge sums on self certified mortgages. The politicians loved the house price inflation on their second homes, the public loved withdrawing the equity from their ever rising house prices and the bankers loved the free tax payer money that came their way when they became too big to fail. Sadly since 2008, nothing has been done to fix this and we will crash much harder the second time around.

Im not sure how the banks can be blamed for trying to make huge amounts of money, that is basically what companies are around for!

However, the sub prime mortgage collapse from what i understand was strictly speaking illegal for the banks to put "our" money into, so they formed companies, borrowed hugely from "their" bank to fund these sub primes and basically raped the profits in wages and bonuses and then simply when the sub prime market collapsed, there was no money to pay back to the banks!

I like the concept that there should be a split into high street banks (retail) and commercial!

[Ada7]

My simplistic view of things (and i realise life isn\'t alway that way) is that, i pay my way in life, bills, taxes etc and i pay into a pension that been agreed and promised to me.
Now if banks want to use my money while its in my account then fine but if i want it back when i need it (including my pension when i retire) then it should be there for me to have. They, the bankers, are the professional ones who know about whats going on with financial things and so should be responsible if things go wrong, just like i would be if i did something wrong in my job.
I see it that they are the ones who didn\'t see the problems coming, made the mistakes and have have got us where we are now and so should be the ones to sort it out... not me! I done whats asked of me so why should i be punished by not getting whats promised to me.

Another point, which has actually been mentioned here, but keeps being left out on the news is that, yes we are being asked to increase our pension payments and yes we are being asked to work longer (untill we are 67-68) but (and this is the point thats left out) we will get less out of it at the end. Not fair in my world.
Also, the ambulance service has not been mentioned once in the news as far as i\'ve seen. Maybe its so as to not worry the public, maybe we aren\'t that important who knows, i just find that a little odd.

Adam

[BlitzBoy]

Adam its not a fair world I am afraid, and no one will look out for you , except yourself, although I pay massively into my pension, I know I will probably need to work until the day I die as my pension what cover the future cost of living.

Striking will not change your situation, Governments can never be black mailed from past events, if there is money in the pot then they may give you a little, but there is not, so striking will only hurt yourself and the public.

You are a saint in my eyes doing the job you do for low pay because you love your job, but in the end for your own survival you may need to retrain to go into the private sector to get the extra money you need.


Yes the banking sector is paying a little more with the bank levy, still dont buy into the claim that banking directors/bankers getting massive pay increases because we need to keep them working for us not abroad because of their talent.
Im sure bank staff earning lower down the chain at 100k have the ability to do the job the same job of another banker earning a couple of Million, I say tax the :censored:ers heavily earning more then 500K, no one needs more money then that, and if they dont like it they can fduk off from this country and live in the far east if they are unwilling for their tax to improve this country they live in.

[Ada7]

I know lifes not fair its just hard some times when you keep getting kicked when you\'re down. We have had a lot taken from us at a local level recently so this is one step to far for a lot of people.
As for retraining to get into the private sector, I have no idea what i\'d be good at or what i could do (I always wanted to be a rock \'n Roll star but dreams dont always come true). To be honest i feel the next 10 years of the NHS will see huge changes and i can see us, the ambulance services, being privatised(?) at some point. Not sure that\'ll slove anything but its the way things are looking

Adam

[Aceman]

Correct me if I\'m wrong in your situation, but in the Private Sector any changes to your Final Salary pension plan can only occur going forward (e.g. you cannot take away someone\'s benefit they have already accrued).

As such, what you have built up already (60ths of final salary I guess) will remain (unless they compensate you somehow for the difference in value of Final Salary vs career average salary scheme).

Therefore you are only paying more going forward, for a different pension arrangement going forward (which is more reflective of the real cost) and anything you have already will not change.

To try to put it into an example, using one part of the NHS scheme, that changed a few years back from final salary to career average salary. So for someone who was in the FS for 10 years, and then will retire in 30 years time, they\'d get 10/60 * Final Salary on retirement + 30/60 * average salary over lifetime of employment. They don\'t suddenly get 40/60 * average salary (that would be illegal)..

If they are proposing thus to change what you have already accrued, strike to your hearts content and rinse them in the courts. If though, this is only for future pension accrual, then personally I\'d have gone much further than the government, closed the Final Salary scheme, offered everyone a DC scheme, and said pay as much as you want into it - if you want a 60ths of final salary, be prepared to put in 30% of your salary for it. If you only want to pay 5% of your salary, expect to retire on £5k a year tops kinda thing!

The other thing to note, touched on in above posts, is that when you say reitre on £6k, that will be in real terms. When you actually retire in the future, you\'ll be paid a lot more than that, but it will be equivalent in real terms to what £6k a year is now. So assuming you\'re 20 years from retirement, you\'ll probably actually retire on £10k a year, accounting for inflation etc. Make sense?


As a side note, it does depend hugely on your scheme rules. For example, if your scheme rules say statutory increases in payment, they can now chose if that is RPI or CPI (generally CPI is lower) and that applies historically due to statutory increases being inflation, and the government allows either definiton of inflation.. (long story cut very short!)