Public sector workers strike Wednesday

[jetpilot]

I agree with Blitz, life isnt fair and as i asked Jojo, why because you work in the public sector do you think the promises made to you, i guess you mean contract by that, should be any different to private sector workers who are having exactly the same done to them as you?

The government were warned about the banking ethics/crisis with sub primes a long long time before it happened, i remember watching a programme before northern rock had gone down, explaining the ins and outs of it, the way the bank bosses had set up companies to use the banks money as the banks werent directly allowed to use the money in that way. The bank of england were powerless, perhaps because control or part control had been put with the Fsa (i think).

Whilst we suffer now, public and private sector, a awful lot of people got very very rich because of this and are probably now kicked backed in the carribean somewhere laughing literally all the way to bank!

I wanted to be a model, but realised you had to be good looking

[Aceman]

Speaking of the RPI to CPI switch, seems that\'s part of the reason for the strikes:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2011/oct/25/unions-high-court-public-sector-pensions-reform

In reality, looks like it\'s a case of tough s**t on that one, due to the wordiness of most scheme rules. If the rules explicitly state RPI, then it\'s illegal. If it just says "inflation", I guess you can pick whatever definition you wish (RPI, RPIX, CPI etc etc).

[Ada7]

Taken from a friend\'s facebook page. A little dramatic i agree but you get the point and says what a lot of us are feeling...

Tomorrow, i\'m taking strike action against the Goverments Pension cuts proposal. Some of you may think we shouldn\'t, some think we should. Some people think it\'s only to do with the pensions, and with that in mind, they are unfortunatly wrong. My job entails carring/lifting heavy patients down stairs, working in cars upside down, it is a physically and mentally demanding job, do you honestly belie...ve you can do this at 68 years of age....i know i won\'t be able to, considering half the patients we go to are around that age, who are having heart problems or stokes etc.

Police and fire service can retire early....why can\'t we??? So many other reason\'s other than money

Please if you pass a picket line by an ambulance station, please toot your horn, and show your support, if you disagree with the strikes, please stop and have a chat with one of us, and we can enlighten you on the full details. Please don\'t shout abuse at us unless you know the full details. And finally for those worried about falling ill, or having an accident, the service is still providing a life and limb cover to protect you, by staff that are striking.

So when the ruling classes decide we can have a day off for a royal wedding it doesn\'t damage the economy, but when the workers decide to strike it costs millions!
(double standards + Hypocrisy)
Do you remember when the Ambulance service, fire, police and prison officers, teachers, binmen, community workers, nurses, doctors & lollipop ladies etc crashed the stock market, wiped out banks, took billions in bonuses and paid no tax? No, me neither

Adam

[Aceman]

Just because I\'m bored at work, I am going to play devil\'s advocate to your friend\'s post...

Tomorrow, i\'m taking strike action against the Goverments Pension cuts proposal. Some of you may think we shouldn\'t, some think we should. Some people think it\'s only to do with the pensions, and with that in mind, they are unfortunatly wrong. My job entails carring/lifting heavy patients down stairs, working in cars upside down, it is a physically and mentally demanding job, do you honestly belie...ve you can do this at 68 years of age....i know i won\'t be able to, considering half the patients we go to are around that age, who are having heart problems or stokes etc.

And the builder in the private sector? Or what about any other form of labouring job which, in the private sector, will have even lower pensions than most in the public sector - if any pension at all!

Police and fire service can retire early....why can\'t we??? So many other reason\'s other than money

You can retire early. You just get a early retirement adjustment factor applied to your pension (read "reduction")

Please if you pass a picket line by an ambulance station, please toot your horn, and show your support, if you disagree with the strikes, please stop and have a chat with one of us, and we can enlighten you on the full details. Please don\'t shout abuse at us unless you know the full details. And finally for those worried about falling ill, or having an accident, the service is still providing a life and limb cover to protect you, by staff that are striking.

Trust me, you\'ll get no abuse from me. I disagree with strike action, but entirely agree with why you\'re annoyed/aggrevated and feel there\'s little else you can do.

So when the ruling classes decide we can have a day off for a royal wedding it doesn\'t damage the economy, but when the workers decide to strike it costs millions!
(double standards + Hypocrisy)

Not at all. It damaged the economy and hurt our growth figures for the 2nd quarter (ONS stated it had about a 0.5% hit - so millions and millions). One thing though, it was a bank holiday for all, so panics over what to do with children who can\'t go to school and the like is the damage area. Plus, people were off on holiday, so went out and spent money, rather than stood on picket lines not spending money - hence the strike will have a bigger impact than the wedding.

Do you remember when the Ambulance service, fire, police and prison officers, teachers, binmen, community workers, nurses, doctors & lollipop ladies etc crashed the stock market, wiped out banks, took billions in bonuses and paid no tax? No, me neither

Not explicitly, but I do (and still) remember when ambulance/fire/police/prison/nurses/teachers/binmen etc borrowed on credit cards rather than saved before buying their new flat screen tv, or borrowed to buy a car, holiday etc - the main cause of the market crash being people borrowing money now rather than saving up and waiting (essentially, that is the whole basis of the current crisis) and, if not being unable to pay those debts back, are now paying them off and cutting back on luxuries, which is killing businesses causing a lot of the current pain..


Sorry... I am honestly bored at work so playing devil\'s advocate.

I kinda wish I could go on strike presently (currently under consultation period over new terms/conditions on pay & benefits within our company) but
unfortunately, as one high up person in HR pointed out simplistically, they can\'t make us accept them, but you either accept them, or pretty much go elsewhere...

[jetpilot]

As said before, i have nothing but praise for the ambulance service, however, it sounds to me like your friends choice of words is, i only took the job because of what it offers, salary, pension etc! Im guessing most choose the paramedics because they wanted to help others, just because they are helping others, their own choice, i feel a little jaded that they use that as justification to stand by them! Harsh as it is, no one was forced into the paramedics, the fact your job is noble and helpful, should not be used as a bargaining tool and on that note, is it any different for teachers? They can still carry out their job at 68?

I have to be honest, i think the forces are the most hard done by in this country, yet as everything, it was their choice to choose that career, how many paramedics do you know who have died in the field of duty or lost limbs in the last year?

[Will66]

You choose to join the forces or any of the other public services because you\'re motivated by more than money and you know there\'s a risk that you\'ll be put in harms way but you do expect to be adequately remunerated for the tasks you\'re asked to perform.  So it\'s particularly galling when your remuneration package is being "adjusted" through no fault of your own.  Especially when the "adjustment" is due to amoral and cavalier financiers who throw quantities of money we can barely fathom around in a manner that will cause problems somewhere just generally not to them.

It probably costs in the order of £250,000 to train a paramedic and probably around £50k a year to employ them, that is their pay, their pension and their other associated costs.  Over a 30 year career that\'s £1.75 million.  When bankers are earning that in bonuses annually and then dodging paying tax on them it\'s a hard pill to swallow being told that your pension is being shrunk to bail the country out because cavalier bankers lent money to people who couldn\'t pay it back.

[Jojo]

Am I reading that right Will??? £50k!!!!!!!!!!! I\'d like to work for ur ambulance service! :o Having done 10years in the service I am on the top most pay banding for my role doing a 42 hour week and I ain\'t out of the £20k\'s!!!! Blimey....do people really think we get £50k???
 
The new role of ECSW\'s, all of whom work on the front line ambulances responding to 999 calls with either a paramedic or technician, are on just under £14k.
 
No wonder the public don\'t get our pain at losing potentially £3k in a year topped with a two and a half year, so far, pay freeze if they think we\'re earning that much!
 
That truly isn\'t a rant at u Will...that is just my surprise....it\'s actually quite nice to think someone thinks we\'re worth that much!!

[iaint]

Am I reading that right Will??? £50k!!!!!!!!!!! I\'d like to work for ur ambulance service! :o Having done 10years in the service I am on the top most pay banding for my role doing a 42 hour week and I ain\'t out of the £20k\'s!!!! Blimey....do people really think we get £50k???

He\'s saying, I think, that the cost to the employer in total is about £50k.

I know that the general equation is to double the salary and you get he cost of employing someone (Employers NI, H&S compliance, insurance, equipment, power, HR services, IT, etc).  It all adds up.

I remember when I ran my own company (just me and one other) and added up all the taxes (PAYE, Emp NI, Corp tax, etc) the figure was well over 65% compared to the money I brought in to the company.  That was before pension and VAT on anything I spent it on.

[Jojo]

Ah...ok. Bit of a relief, thought there was some real confusion going on there!! Was a nice thought though......:rolleyes:
 
If I\'m honest I think the best way the ambulance service could save money would not be through making these cuts but through spending some money educating the public on what actually constitutes an emergency.  It costs around £700 each job an ambulance rolls to.  In a normal 12hour shift I would say, on average, each crew at Guildford station attends roughly 8-10 jobs.  Of those jobs I would estimate at least 75% of them have absolutely no need for an ambulance.  The Service, and therefore the tax payer, would save far more than they will if these pension changes do take place if they could stop 999 being called for 41yr olds with diahorrea for 2 days and 35 yr olds with headaches......and then there are the people who are simply drunk....

[lee mills]

Ah...ok. Bit of a relief, thought there was some real confusion going on there!! Was a nice thought though......:rolleyes:
 
If I\'m honest I think the best way the ambulance service could save money would not be through making these cuts but through spending some money educating the public on what actually constitutes an emergency. It costs around £700 each job an ambulance rolls to. In a normal 12hour shift I would say, on average, each crew at Guildford station attends roughly 8-10 jobs. Of those jobs I would estimate at least 75% of them have absolutely no need for an ambulance. The Service, and therefore the tax payer, would save far more than they will if these pension changes do take place if they could stop 999 being called for 41yr olds with diahorrea for 2 days and 35 yr olds with headaches......and then there are the people who are simply drunk....

 
Surely if as you say you educate the public to only use the ambulance service in an emergency, by your own words 75% of call outs will be stopped therefore common sense would say that 75% of ambulance crews wouldnt be needed.
 I can see how that would save money but not really going to help your prospects of keeping a job let alone worrying about your pension.

[Jojo]

Not really an issue.  
 
We have so many calls now the Service we work for are currently employing serveral different private ambulance firms and a number of St John vehicles as the only way to meet demand.  
 
Get rid of half the stupid jobs, factor in the fact that we are losing staff by the bucket load and they are barely managing to recruit anyone and, soon, we\'ll just about meet in the middle and be right without any redundancies!!

[jetpilot]

They had the general secretary of the nu on sky news this morning talking the unions point of view, some fair comments etc

But and a big but, why do the unions and public sector workers (which he was) always bang on about bankers wages, bonuses, heads of business pay rises etc as an example of how unfair it is?? What other people earn has absolutely nothing to do with your wage or bonuses, if you wanted to earn more money, go and be a banker, head of business!

I am afraid to say it strikes me as typical labour induced, he earns more than more and its just not fair type syndrome! This to me is where the unions fall down, this hard done by attitude, when really, just stand up for what you believe and dont worry about others wages etc

[Will66]

The private sector entitled to their wage however what they\'re not entitled to is a free ride when they mess it up and then jeopardise their wages.  The government should not have allowed Northern Rock or HBOS to continue trading, they should have safeguarded the members of the public who had savings with them, continued to finance the mortgages and loans that were being issued by the company and then wound the businesses up, either that or it should have become a nationalised bank and only dealt in high street finance.  We should not have sured up their business and allowed the same executives that lead the bank into bankruptcy to continue working for the bank and paying themselves enormous bonuses.

Put it this way, if I drive a warship aground, lose classified material or commit an act that jeopardises the safety of my ship or the wider maritime community, I\'d be investigated and if found to have been negligent then I would lose my job.  However if someone makes a mess of running a bank then they get a government hand out and a paycheck that would pay for the through life costs of several public servants!  It\'s a little hard to come to terms with a serious dent in your pay or pension when you see the same people proposing this allowing failing banks to hand out massive paycheques to people of questionable integrity and ability!

By the way Jojo, I know paramedics don\'t earn £50k a year, I was working on their capitation rate, the cost of employing someone, as iaint says.  I spent a while looking at the costs of employing someone in the RN and the capitation rates is around twice what the individuals annual salary is or thereabouts for most of the military and public services.  Unless you\'re involved in something like military aviation, in which case the annual cost of employing you makes your salary something of an afterthought!

[jetpilot]

The government should not have allowed Northern Rock or HBOS to continue trading

Absolutely 100%!! So blame Labour for not dealing with it sooner!!

[Will66]

Unfortunately I cannot see that it would have played out much different whatever Political Party was in power.  Unfortunately the elected officials we have now are a group of professional politicians who have dedicated their lives to political success, there are few amongst either the Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet who have had jobs in the commercial or public sectors, or if they did they are in the dim and distant past.  They\'re out of touch with the general public and too swayed by lobbyists and political donations to be effective.  

In Will66\'s Britain there would be many changes, party politics would be outlawed as would political point scoring, polling would also be outlawed.  Political representatives would have to spend at least 40% of their time in their constituency, talking to their constituents and they would have to record pertinent comments and pass them back to their leadership for consideration and action.  It would make being an MP a lot of work but if you\'re in that sort of position you need to work for it.  Political Spin would be punishable by 24 hours in the stocks.  The National Health Service would be in for a serious shake up, as would the Welfare system, though these two areas could form the basis for a major thesis in their own right.  Investment in the private sector would be targeted at generating a high tech manufacturing and technology based economy rather than a finance based one, this would mean that regardless of the global economic climate anything we produced would always have intrinsic value and the British workforce would have a significant and useful skill set that would mean they were far more employable.  Apprentice schemes would be extended and reinvigorated to give people passing out of these schemes real skills and abilities, they would also be greatly increased in number to open them up to more school leavers.  School careers advice would be far more in depth and school leavers would be given the option of voluntary service in a wide number of roles to give them a chance to make better informed decisions about their future career, an investment in their future.  University would be funded on a grant basis to those selected on the basis of academic achievement AND performance at selection assessments, again the grant would be an investment by the government in their future that is paid back by them achieving in life, which could be in any number of manners.  Ill thought out targets and comparative league tables would be scrapped, particularly the ones which can be massaged by administrators to give a misleading indication of performance.  Amoral press practises would result in the closure of that organisation and the forfeit of its assets to the crown.  

Stuff like that!