Ignition on a 13B

[Miki]

For people that dont know of Howard then put it this way, when he posts on rx7club, people listen and no-one .....es, and it is a site full of ignorant people

If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.:rolleyes:

You know, I digged through archive on RX7Club, and 10 years ago, there were really knowlegeable people WITH running cars, these people were contributing with what they experienced alongside with Peter. And they were producing real usable power on pump gas and pushing limits.

But then somewhere from nowhere appeared Howard Coleman and Brian Cain, alcoholic saviours of rotary engine:god

Note: Both these guys filled Rx7club with hundreds of pages of pure BS, or what they read elsewhere:2Rolleyes And guess what, moderators on that forum are their boyfriends or something and make this "contribution" sticky:confused: There are blunt people, who bow in front of their ranting, but really knowledgeable people are in shadows and really can give a f*ck about these "gods"

Also these two experts don´t have running cars - taking advice from them?:confused:

This isn´t against auxiliary injection of any form, there are many people running it, testing it and sharing what they found:cheers

But these two, didn´t contribute with anything except their ranting and blowing engines:flamed

Take your time to seek which people are true leaders, and not internet heros:2Confused

[PGiljevic]

If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.:rolleyes:

You know, I digged through archive on RX7Club, and 10 years ago, there were really knowlegeable people WITH running cars, these people were contributing with what they experienced alongside with Peter. And they were producing real usable power on pump gas and pushing limits.

But then somewhere from nowhere appeared Howard Coleman and Brian Cain, alcoholic saviours of rotary engine:god

Note: Both these guys filled Rx7club with hundreds of pages of pure BS, or what they read elsewhere:2Rolleyes And guess what, moderators on that forum are their boyfriends or something and make this "contribution" sticky:confused: There are blunt people, who bow in front of their ranting, but really knowledgeable people are in shadows and really can give a f*ck about these "gods"

Also these two experts don´t have running cars - taking advice from them?:confused:

This isn´t against auxiliary injection of any form, there are many people running it, testing it and sharing what they found:cheers

But these two, didn´t contribute with anything except their ranting and blowing engines:flamed

Take your time to seek which people are true leaders, and not internet heros:2Confused

:Thumbs-up

beat me to it LOL !

[PGiljevic]

Rice Racing - i will email you soon about ignition system, what i will do with the guidance you give me is build the CDI system alongside whilst running my car on the standard igniton with the twin power, mainly due to the cost factor, ATM i have probably got around £2000 to get the car running and rolling, miscelaneous bits, wheels(very hard choice to suit an old school BTW) and mapping the car, and i am thinking of running a charge cooler instead of intercooler(lack of space and i think they look amazing) oh and WI:Thumbs-up:Thumbs-up all which do add up. so hopefully i can do as you have done and run one system then change it over, i could buy all of these things now but saving for a house takes all my spare cash.

No worries mate and no matter what some Nuk the Geek Turd may type on the interweb in his "opinion" you don\'t need to spend much ca$h to achieve what I have, I know I spent about 1/20th of his estimate LOL *fukturd!* another case of know all dip....zter sharing his "opinion" which holds zero value to anyone but himself!!! :evillaugh

[BlitzBoy]

In regards to WI, I cant understand why those guys in the US run 100% meth as the injectant and running it at large quantities ,replacing up to 30% of the actual pump fuel in some cases.

Water has the best properties in taking heat away and det suppression, if you running 100% meth you might as well make it the main fuel and get rid of the AI equipment, eg  a proper meth car, meth is a fuel at the end of the day.

I will be running 50:50 mix WI again shortly to take advantages of both liquids

[MRC Moderator]

Would everyone please take note that just the same as racist comments etc, homophobic comments and abusive behavior toward other members will not be tolerated.

MRC is and always has been a family orientated club and the swear filter is there for a reason and not to be used to get round words to abuse or degenerate people.

The internet is big enough for you to go away and behave how you wish elsewhere so if you feel unable to comply with the above please do so.

[Will66]

It\'s this sort of thing that makes me happy I run a stock motor.  No need for fancy and expensive ignition systems and no need to get embroiled in this sort of internet chatter.

[Prof]

Specific Heat Values - how much energy is required to raise the liquid by 1 degree per Kilogram
 
 
Water :  4200J/KgC
 
Methanol :  250JKgC
 
Ethanol : 230JKgC
 
Gasoline : 2200J/Kgc
 
 
Latent Heat of Evaporation - how much heat energy is required to evaporate the liquid (per Kilogram)
 
Water : 2.3 x 10^6 J/Kg
 
Methanol:  1.1 x 10^6 J/KG
 
Ethanol:  8.5 x 10^5 J/KG
 
Gasoline:  2.4 x 10^5 J/KG
 
 
Water takes a lot more heat away, and it will also recover heat energy into mechanical energy as steam in the combustion chamber , as it wont be broken down.

[Miki]

In regards to WI, I cant understand why those guys in the US run 100% meth as the injectant and running it at large quantities ,replacing up to 30% of the actual pump fuel in some cases.

Probably because they´ve been exposed to methanol fumes for to long:rollin

Seriously, they´re acting as they won´t to know true, why they choosen methanol as knock suppressant - yes, they claim it to be, is beyond my understanding:confused:

But you can see simple trace, water injected guys are running around 500 cc of water around 500 HP level and their cars are running, so they don´t have a reason to post about how it blown:yes

Methanol only guys - like Howard and BDC, are running up to 2000 cc of methanol only, yet their knock count and claimed power are not up to level of WI guys, but they have some urge to post about how it works:rolleyes:

50/50 guys also producing good power and reliability, taking advantage of methanol as charge coolant and water as knock suppressant with lower levels of needed ignition energy, they are running, so no reason to :Typing

[Grant Monkhouse]

If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.:rolleyes:
 
You know, I digged through archive on RX7Club, and 10 years ago, there were really knowlegeable people WITH running cars, these people were contributing with what they experienced alongside with Peter. And they were producing real usable power on pump gas and pushing limits.
 
But then somewhere from nowhere appeared Howard Coleman and Brian Cain, alcoholic saviours of rotary engine:god
 
Note: Both these guys filled Rx7club with hundreds of pages of pure BS, or what they read elsewhere:2Rolleyes And guess what, moderators on that forum are their boyfriends or something and make this "contribution" sticky:confused: There are blunt people, who bow in front of their ranting, but really knowledgeable people are in shadows and really can give a f*ck about these "gods"
i didnt say these 2 were gods but merely meaning that on that particular forum where most replies consist of "use the search button" they actually have intuitive information for others to take what bits of knowledge they want from the masses of verbal chunder and go and apply it to something that will hopefully work for them.
 
Also these two experts don´t have running cars - taking advice from them?:confused:
 
This isn´t against auxiliary injection of any form, there are many people running it, testing it and sharing what they found:cheers
 
But these two, didn´t contribute with anything except their ranting and blowing engines:flamed
^^^ i did notice on his "seperating fiction from reality" thread that it has been over a year now since his car actually worked properly, however he is doing something most people cant afford to do
Take your time to seek which people are true leaders, and not internet heros:2Confused

....................................

[Grant Monkhouse]

You got a linky - pretty please ?

here you prof, i didnt read all of it but found it interesting
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=806104&highlight=howard+coleman
theres a very nice picture of an rx3 on the first post!!

[Grant Monkhouse]

this thread has gone totally away from what i originaly intended it for.
 
first point i like to make is that from the first bits of info we discussed is that the FD ignition is more thn capable up to a certain point and good strong HP numbers can be made, but as stated by a few people there is a point where something is need that will keep up with power demanded from the engine by me.
 
yes 600HP is a lot of power, but with everyone one that likes the thrill of going fast, you always want more, so an ignition system will be needed
 
which is what Peter is pointing out that CDI is the way to go.
 
i am prety certain that 500FWHp is going to scare the sh!t out of me in the rx4, and i will have to modify the car more and more to take the power and go faster.
 
but i will want to go faster, which means more power, car set up different etc.
 
so although the twin power will do for now, i will build another ststem which will cope with high boost and WI, yes i may not need WI but this stuff i find amazing and really interesting.
 
i could just get a 3 rotor to gain more power easier but that takes the expenses up even more greatly than getting more power from a 13B

[Mir]

i could just get a 3 rotor to gain more power easier but that takes the expenses up even more greatly than getting more power from a 13B

buy mine!

[Grant Monkhouse]

buy mine!

i would but if i could but i cant. LOL

[marco]

have we stopped the name calling now? can we get back to this?
I am in a similar situation in trying to decide whether or not I should go to a CDI set up. I am coming at this from trying to decide what is best rather than what is good enough, and frankly I still cant find a definitive answer. Initally I believed that CDI was the be all and end all, but after reading this thread (LINKY) I am not so sure anymore. the thread is quite long winded, and is a few years old now, but I still believe the info is relevent. the take home points I got was
CDI allows for a very quick charge time, and gives a high output discharge.
the CDI discharge (i.e. the spark) is very powerful but is very short duration.
this short duration might not be that benefical at low rpm, which is why they have multispark facilities at low rpm.
inductive ignition has longer charge times, but also has a longer spark duration. this may help in ensuring full combustion. the longer charge times mean that at higher rpm, there isnt enough time to fully charge the coil between sparks, this obviously can be improved by having one coil per plug rather than a wasted spark setup. also in an N/A setup the energy required to initiate the spark reduces once you get above the point of peak torque. hence lack of time to charge isnt as detrimental as you would first think- this is why F1 teams still run inductive (well they did then, not sure if they do now!). increasing the cyclinder pressure results in a greater energy requirement which means that a high RPM, high boost engine might swamp an inductive setup. this isnt helped by the fact that inductive systems generally have lower energy outputs than a cdi system. HOWEVER, developments in coil design mean that some inductive systems are approaching the outputs of cdi systems. later on in the thread, a dwell time of 5ms is given for a high power inductive coil. Assuming the spark plug fires every crank revolution and one coil per plug, this gives a max rpm of around 12000rpm before you start running out of charge time, which is more than most of us will need?!
obviously coils such as these will require a large current supply, so will require a suitable ecu to run them if they are driven directly by the ecu, or a good power supply from the battery if they have the ignitors etc built into them.

so, the way I see it at the moment (and I am still investigating so please feel free to chime in with more, alternative info!) is that CDI is a bit of a known quantity, as in it will improve your ignition system and help fire the kind of boost/mixtures you will see in a high power engine. however it might not be necessary, as a well specced inductive system will ignite the same mixture. The inductive sytem will be simpler, and considering a good CDI unit is 500-1000 pounds, can be a bit cheaper. But it might be a bit more of a gamble? :2Confused
in my situation, where I am starting from scratch with regard to the engine and electrics, i feel it will be better to plump for an induction system built around some high power inductive coils. the cost i have saved from not using a cdi unit can then go into a more capable ecu to enable me to fully exploit these coils. However if I were working with standard wring loom and say apexi I would probably go for a twin power, and if that wasnt enough then look at a meaty cdi system.
As i say, these are jsut my musings from looking around at my options, I would recomend reading through the link above, and take see what you think.

[Prof]

There is another type of ignition system - which can work with eithe CDI or Inductive types, which feeds a high voltage high current feed to the spark plug electrode, but the voltage isn\'t sufficient to fire it.  It\'s isolated from the ignition by a high voltage diode.
 
The idea is that the stock system creates the spark because it can push a high enough voltage to ionize the fuel/air mix, then the plasma phase of the ignition is fed from the high voltage supply through the diode, since a much lower voltage is required to maintain the \'burn\'.
 
This system is rather like a HID inverter or flourescent tube driver.  It means the requirements for the ignition strike circuit can easily be met by either design, since the strike voltage is just switch off time (inductive) or capacitor voltage (CDI) and the length of spark is as long as you want it to be (settable by an ECU or external igniton control).
 
PROS:
 
Does away with the need for multispark in CDI
Allows plasma phase burn time to be fully controlled
Doesn\'t suffer high RPM dropoff
Can use either Inductive or Capacitive ignition circuit since it\'s only needed to initially fire the spark, not maintain it
 
CONS:
 
More circuitry involved
More complex HT lead setup, means COP (Coil on Plug) can\'t be used
Cost - High voltage blocking diodes are expensive
Dangerous - more HT running around the car engine bay -so care must be taken
 
And before you go flaming me - this is genuine and patented idea - not mine - but I\'ve seen it work in practice - system even has enough energy to create a spark in liquid water !