Uni Fees

[jetpilot]

A good Friday debate topic!

My view, if someone offered me the tools/knowledge to earn a considerable amount of money for a nominal fee only payable when you start earning acceptable levels i would have been over the moon! £7.50 a month payback hardly breaks the bank imho.

So, are the protesters the general Uni layabouts that have 4 hours of lectures a week giving them plenty of time to get up after their previous nights drinking only to end up with a pretend degree in some random subject after 3/4 years or are they the honest students who have a plan and goal and actually are\'nt too worried as they know that education will earn them good money in the future?

If anyone watches Have i got news for you, they may have seen a classic quote when one of the protesters was asked what the rise in fees meant to them,

"An extra £9k a year over 3 years, thats like £21k more, thats just ridiculous"

[BlitzBoy]

we been discussing this in the Who wins thread, so cant be bothered typing it out again, so have a look in there lol

I think the actual figure of the rise is quite too high, a rise would not have been necessary if the Scottish and Northern Ireland students were made to pay fees as well, therefore a rise for the English students would not have been necessary.
I agree it will stop students picking soft degrees, but it is still a huge chunk of money to pay back no matter how many years they will have to pay it, this will hit the average working/middle class students the most, with the richer students having the pick of the top uni places at the top universitys which will cause a divide which ever way you look at it.

Agreed the money has to come from somewhere at the uni population has increased massively, but it could have been a better way of doing it, with every student in BRITAIN paying not just the English students.

But remember it will only been some universitys on some degrees that will charge the top whack of 9k a year, the average will be 6k a year. This will lead to some market forces, some unis will shut down if they cant fill they places if they overcharge and some unis simply cant fill their places as students wont go there as they dont offer value for money

[Nik da Greek]

Can\'t respond, still too angry. It\'s just plain wrong on so many levels :mad:

[Bobbit]

I dont understand the fuss over the raise in fees, education is expensive, simple. I\'ve looked into doing courses recently and even part time courses are expensive, why should degree students get a free ride? Unless they haven\'t noticed, the country is in a bit of a downturn and everyone needs to tighten their belts and realise that everything is more expensive. Just because they choose to study at degree why should I foot their bill? If people choose to study then i think they should pay for it, it\'s not like they are asking for the money upfront, you pay back the fees once you are earning above a specific amount, earnings that would be considerably higher that if you had not gone to university. So, you learn more, you the earn more and then pay back the cost of your learning.

I also dont understand the whole fuss about the lib dems breaking promises, ok so they did promise something, they have now found out they cannot deliver on this promise and have accordingly changed their stance. So in a sense they made a mistake, admitted their mistake and people are cruicifying them for this? Surely it would be a bigger problem if they kept their promise and then another area like the NHS took a hit in funding. Example: The money need to keep pourly babies alive was needed for some jumped up student who wants to study Lady Gaga for 3 yrs and then end up working in the music industry creating more tuneless garbage to corrupt some similar minded fduck-tard into believing that such noise constitutes music.

One quote that annoyed me was some one saying "free education is a basic human right"
Well that is correct, you go to school from that ages of 4 to 16 and you get it free, they when you reach the age of employment you can choose to either go to work or to study further, and if you choose to study then you pay for it.
Does no-one realise that in this life nothing is for free, everthing cost money and if you choose to do somethig then you should pay for it, we are in such a mind set that everyone is a victim and that society owes us all money, free living, free food and cars and large plasma TV. :2Mad

On a side note did anyone see the issue about the chinese guys who has won the Noble Peace Prize despite being in a chinese prison, serving a 11 yrs sentance for standing up against the government? The media are kicking off about human rights and china opression, yet we bicker about our benefit system and how people get given things for nothing and then have the audacity to preach about islamic law and burn poppys. In china you do what you are told and if you dont you go to prison (if your lucky, if not you end up in a grave). Is there no happy medium we can arrange? Where people get what they deserve/earn and people can live with a sense of worth and value? Right, thats enough of my ranting, i\'m off the see about emegrating to live with my folks in Australia

[MrHanky]

I also don\'t understand the fuss.  Too many people in this country seem to expect a free ride.
Never went to uni myself but did go to see friends occasionally.  All they seemed to do was eat junk food (not cheap) and drink.  Seemed to be very little time spent studying.  Now I know that not all students are like this, but regardless I do think they should pay their way.  
 
I have 3 kids who are a long way off Uni (if they want to go).  If they do go in the future then great.  But I don\'t want them to go just to enjoy the social side.  I would want them to learn and not just waste time and money.  If they have to pay for this then hopefully they will work harder and concentrate on what they are there for.  To many people seem to go uni just for the social experience IMO.
 
Mark

[dthebuk]

I dont understand the fuss over the raise in fees, education is expensive, simple. I\'ve looked into doing courses recently and even part time courses are expensive, why should degree students get a free ride?

The main argument against this in my eyes is that its a benifit to the country to have highly educated people. Now realistically there are alot of people who go for the social aspect or whatever, but then there are additionally a lot of people who really work hard at there degrees and and go far and its very hard to separate people.

Ive always thought that certain subjects should be cheaper than others, such as sciences etc to make them more accessable to those that are interested, but this then comes to the problem of who decides which subjects should be cheapest? At the current rate, science courses are going to become more expensive due to the need of equipment etc which we really do not want.

Personally I dont think only people doing degrees should have their education payed for, there should be a lot more attention payed to those who arn\'t particularly achedemic and getting them into some sort of apprenticeship or other form of educaion which will benifit them, not just educating poeple for the sake of it.

On top of everything, why isn\'t anyone critising the universities? Why don\'t they just spend their money on what they need? Yes nice new lectures theatres are nice, but they don\'t really help you learn better. Whats wrong with an old overhead projector etc. Im sure the uni\'s could cut their budgets by a significant amount without effecting the quality of education.

[Nik da Greek]

Sorry, Rob, but attitudes like this just enrage me and I expected better from you dude It sounds like this has been copied and pasted from the Daily Mail\'s ANGRY column. It\'s all just dog-in-the-manger

I dont understand the fuss over the raise in fees, education is expensive, simple. I\'ve looked into doing courses recently and even part time courses are expensive, why should degree students get a free ride? Unless they haven\'t noticed, the country is in a bit of a downturn and everyone needs to tighten their belts and realise that everything is more expensive. Just because they choose to study at degree why should I foot their bill? If people choose to study then i think they should pay for it, it\'s not like they are asking for the money upfront, you pay back the fees once you are earning above a specific amount, earnings that would be considerably higher that if you had not gone to university. So, you learn more, you the earn more and then pay back the cost of your learning.

So many questions, the answer is simple. Today\'s students are the future of the country. They are the people who will have the skills and the abilities to take this coutry forward and bring it back from the brink. With the greatest of repsect, the people who won\'t be doing this are those who leave school at 16 with no qualifications and go on to be plasterers, buiders, street sweepers etc, vital though those roles are.

You should want to fund their eductaion because you exist in a democratic society and you therefore do not have the grounding to say where your funding of that society is spent, other than by exercising your right to vote to change the government of that society. You should want to fund education because the society as a whole will benefit from it, not because individuals will, although on an individual level it should be pointed out that those individuals will then go on to fund your pension, pay for the roads in your area, your local infrastructure, and when you fall off a ladder and shatter your spine and are unable to work, you will be supported and cared for by their contributions into society....

By raising fees from (rough average) nine grand to twenty seven, this policy has immediately made it simply impossible for people from disadvantaged backgrounds to better their status through eductation, and is effectively condemming them to repeat the poverty trap through subsequent generations whilst the privileged elite who can buy what they want can spend their way to eductation and guaranteed top employment afterwards. If you think that\'s a fair way for things to be I suggest you read some Dickens or William Blake poetry to see what sort of society such exaggerated wealth and status gaps create.

And as to paying back the money from your massive degree-enhanced earnings, well the gap between degree and non-degree based earnings is certainly not as large as it has been and is shrinking ever smaller as the high cost of living squeezes everything upwards from the bottom. We\'re talking about a degree no indebting you for decades on average earnings, not for a few years

I also dont understand the whole fuss about the lib dems breaking promises, ok so they did promise something, they have now found out they cannot deliver on this promise and have accordingly changed their stance. So in a sense they made a mistake, admitted their mistake and people are cruicifying them for this? Surely it would be a bigger problem if they kept their promise and then another area like the NHS took a hit in funding. Example: The money need to keep pourly babies alive was needed for some jumped up student who wants to study Lady Gaga for 3 yrs and then end up working in the music industry creating more tuneless garbage to corrupt some similar minded fduck-tard into believing that such noise constitutes music.

The issue of the Government (for that is waht the Lib-Dems now are) breaking promises is surely absolutely immense in significance? The GOVERNMENT OF YOUR COUNTRY HAVE LIED TO THEIR ELECTORATE! Sorry to shout lol, but that is just fduking enormous in its significance. They haven\'t found they are unable to deliver a campaign pledge, they have actually broken their stated, recorded word. Clegg and Cable both stated in interviews prior to election that not only would they not increase tuition fees they would oppose any move to do so. Michael Gove also pledged that he would not rescind the further education funding schemes, which he has now done, and incidentally, this is of probably greater significance than the tuition fees issue because it guarantees people form the poorest backgrounds will now no longer be able to stay in eductaion beyond secondary, let alone chance University. This will of course lead to increases in inner city youth unemployment, crime and delinquency.

However, back to the deception of the politicians, it is in no way acceptable for the elected governors of this country to tell barefaced lies, this simply should not be tolerated  on any level. They should be beyond reproach, that is why they are elceted in the first place, to KEEP the promises on which they stood.

As to the issue of music, well, it\'s also an important part of what bonds society together and just because you don\'t like it doesn\'t render it automatically invalid. You may hate N-Dubz but I daresay Dappy isn\'t too fond of your Cliff Richard collection, either. Who\'s right?

One quote that annoyed me was some one saying "free education is a basic human right"
Well that is correct, you go to school from that ages of 4 to 16 and you get it free, they when you reach the age of employment you can choose to either go to work or to study further, and if you choose to study then you pay for it.
Does no-one realise that in this life nothing is for free, everthing cost money and if you choose to do somethig then you should pay for it, we are in such a mind set that everyone is a victim and that society owes us all money, free living, free food and cars and large plasma TV.

Most people accept that further education has to be at least partially self-funded but that doesn\'t excuse making it so expensive that great swathes of the population cannot now afford it at all. We\'re not talking about mum and dad having to tighten their belts and go without posh biscuits for three years to afford the increase, we\'re talking about it not being attainable at all for many families. Of course, those that can afford it, could afford it anyway...very cheap to those who can but impossible for those who can\'t. Great, what we need in this country is a greater gap between haves and have-nots than the current ever-widening gulf. We\'re talking about NINE THOUSAND pounds a year here, just on tuition fees, not the overall cost of living as well over the term of the degree (food, accomodation, travel, equipment, etc). Who the hell can pay an extra 9k out of their wages to support their kids per year? Do you think you\'d notice it going out of your wages? Because I sure as Hell would....well, I simply couldn\'t do it, what am I supposed to do, use my life savings to pay for my childs education and then starve to death in my dotage because my pensions worth nothing because the government and bankers between them have raped it and my child now cant support me in old age as would have happened once upon a time because he\'s crippled with massive student debts and can barely support himself?

On a side note did anyone see the issue about the chinese guys who has won the Noble Peace Prize despite being in a chinese prison, serving a 11 yrs sentance for standing up against the government? The media are kicking off about human rights and china opression, yet we bicker about our benefit system and how people get given things for nothing and then have the audacity to preach about islamic law and burn poppys. In china you do what you are told and if you dont you go to prison (if your lucky, if not you end up in a grave). Is there no happy medium we can arrange? Where people get what they deserve/earn and people can live with a sense of worth and value? Right, thats enough of my ranting, i\'m off the see about emegrating to live with my folks in Australia

I think this happy medium is exactly what the students are trying to demostrate in favour of. China mostly only has the few human rights it currently enjoys due to various phases of rebellion against oppression...in fact the current regime arose through pretty much just that IIRC. I\'m not convinced that Australia\'s government have really showered themselves in glory with their domestic policy of late....

[Will66]

I\'ve said it before in other places but it now means that I cannot shout "My Taxes pay for your education to students."  

It does mean that a student is financially responsible for their education which I think is a good thing and the way they\'ve done it means that repayment of the cost of their education is dependent on how much they earn.  Even then it\'s not lots.  For someone on a £40k a year salary it\'s going to cost about £150 a month, which is not outside the realms of affordability.  I think the provisions are reasonable.

[BlitzBoy]

You should want to fund their eductaion because you exist in a democratic society and you therefore do not have the grounding to say where your funding of that society is spent, other than by exercising your right to vote to change the government of that society. ..

Yes it in a ideal democracy I agree, but right now we as a country cant afford to pay for it all with the current taxation levels and money left in the coffers.
So lets talk solutions
1) Increase taxes to pay for it
2) Let the fees stay as there are therefore some universities will close due to lack of finance, therefore less places available to prospective students
3) Every student in Britain not just England pay fees and keep the levels the same
4) Cut further other services, therefore theory lead to more people out of jobs

What solution would you go for Nik and others? Im very interested if we can come up with our own theory to fund university places

[Bobbit]

^^^ fair points guys and very well explained, thanks for taling the time in explaining things further for me, plenty of food for thought.

I still cant say i\'m overly effected by the change, one main issue of contention is what Nik said "And as to paying back the money from your massive degree-enhanced earnings, well the gap between degree and non-degree based earnings is certainly not as large as it has been and is shrinking ever smaller as the high cost of living squeezes everything upwards from the bottom. We\'re talking about a degree no indebting you for decades on average earnings, not for a few years"

If the difference in earnings is not much what\'s the point of Uni?

Now i\'ve never been to Uni, i\'ve always worked hard have earned a fair wage, not as much as I would like but enought to afford a few things that give me pleasure. But I still begrudge paying so some snotty nosed kid to go to Uni, spend 3-4 yrs getting plastered and spending my hard earned cash on drugs and fast food (this is based on the large number of my friends that did go to Uni and what they got up to) Now I know that this will not apply to all students but it will apply to enough of them that it annoys me.

i know that question is more hypothetical than anything as without university we dont get people qualified to higher levels and that means no more doctors etc but I still feel that their (doctors etc) potential earnings will be far higher that I could ever achieve and so I feel happy that they would be able to afford to pay back the higher cost of their learning at the new levels the government have set.

As for the youth being our future, yep that\'s true, but based on my past and applying that to the future, it doesn\'t look too hopefull to me. The government will lie and make a mess of things then lie about making a mess of things, banks will charge me a fortune to let them use my money and then loose my money, my one main pleasure of driving will become more and more expensive so I will have less chance to enjoy myself and become even more bitter towards the way this country is run and this extra cost will go to some lazy charver or illegal immigrant with a family of 12 and they will get a larger house than me, pay nothing for it while they drive around in the largest car I could imagine and watch tv on a screen so large astronoughts can see it from space. And all this time I will keep my head down, work hard, pay my taxes and grumble about life.

In responce to this quote from Nik also:

"You should want to fund their eductaion because you exist in a democratic society and you therefore do not have the grounding to say where your funding of that society is spent, other than by exercising your right to vote to change the government of that society. You should want to fund education because the society as a whole will benefit from it, not because individuals will, although on an individual level it should be pointed out that those individuals will then go on to fund your pension, pay for the roads in your area, your local infrastructure, and when you fall off a ladder and shatter your spine and are unable to work, you will be supported and cared for by their contributions into society...."

I pay for private health care through work and personal health insurance and so again the fact that I dig into my own pocket for these benefits does not endear me towards those who work for and contribute towards the NHS (as an example) as the current way the NHS is run is beyond a joke and is so wastefull of the money that I contribute, that I feel it necessary to pay extra for private care. I dont feel the NHS gives a level of competence and professionalism that I would deem acceptable for a dog let alone a human. ahem, sorry got side tracked there. And as for the upkeep of roads in my area, you\'ll have to excuse me for laughing but the roads around here are shocking and haven\'t seen a workman in yrs.

As for Australia, i know it\'s not perfect but even if we picked up the UK and set it down in Oz I would still feel happier as the weather would be better :Thumbs-up (obviously not in western Oz at the moment but generally so)

To summerise I think I dont know enough of the facts to make an informed decision, but i\'m still bitter about the fact that, having worked hard all my life and achieved what I have, I have to pay for lazy idiots to waste my money. As Mark has said above, the budget is simply not big enough to go around, cuts have to be made everywhere, what I think reduces my sympathies for students is their current demonstrations and the level of violence during those demonstrations. FFS some idiot threw a fire extinguisher off a rooftop at the police, people have smashed windows and attacked the royals, they are behaving like 3yrs in a supermarket that have been told that cannot have the large packet of wotsists they want.

Right rant over and I\'d like to say that yet again MRC has shown me people can have different opinions and still have civil conversations on the internet without degrading themselves with shouting and name calling


P.S Nik da Greek smells of wee wee! :Ladys-man

[jetpilot]

I also heard on the news today that Scottish Universities don\'y charge, which i guess moves us onto a whole new debate. Why arent they charging and why are the UK universities now having to fund that shortfall?

[jetpilot]

To Mr Greek, as ever a lot of valid points, but as per my original question, who is protesting, the wasters as Bobbit says, who want a few years of not having to work, watching daytime tv rubbish, eating sub of the day and getting absolutely trollied most nights if not and or stoned or the ones who know their future career planned and the only way to obtain said career and higher earnings is through further education!

Will this not sort the wheat from the chaff??

There are so many boll*cks degrees these days where whomever does them will never trouble the powers that be and not ever be close to making a difference in my life or this countries, apart from serving me my McDonalds or Starbucks. So as per Bobbit, why should i pay my tax\'s and go without my privaledges so they can have 4 years out?

[BlitzBoy]

I also heard on the news today that Scottish Universities don\'y charge, which i guess moves us onto a whole new debate. Why arent they charging and why are the UK universities now having to fund that shortfall?

Exactly thats the point Im trying to make, Students in Northern Ireland and Scotland dont pay, why an earth not!? just beacuse they devolved from the English parliment, Last time I looked all our taxes go in the same pot

Therfore an English student going to a Scottish uni still has to pay, but a Scot student going to an English Uni does not (correct me if im wrong) seems unfair, I thought we lived in the United Kingdom but Un-united to suit other peoples agendas and wants

[Bobbit]

Ive always thought that certain subjects should be cheaper than others, such as sciences etc to make them more accessable to those that are interested, but this then comes to the problem of who decides which subjects should be cheapest? At the current rate, science courses are going to become more expensive due to the need of equipment etc which we really do not want.

Personally I dont think only people doing degrees should have their education payed for, there should be a lot more attention payed to those who arn\'t particularly achedemic and getting them into some sort of apprenticeship or other form of educaion which will benifit them, not just educating poeple for the sake of it.

On top of everything, why isn\'t anyone critising the universities? Why don\'t they just spend their money on what they need? Yes nice new lectures theatres are nice, but they don\'t really help you learn better. Whats wrong with an old overhead projector etc. Im sure the uni\'s could cut their budgets by a significant amount without effecting the quality of education.

Some very good points bud, esp about different "core" degrees being cheaper. I like your thought process on that issue.

University\'s are very good at wasting money, it seems to me with my simple understanding of things, that, like councils and governing bodies in general, the people who run these establishments are too concerned with not offending people and making sure everyone is happy. To me they should be run as a business and the wheat should be seperated from the chaff on a regular basis. Although working for a large company this is still not an ideal solution but at least it would be a start

[jetpilot]

Yes it in a ideal democracy I agree, but right now we as a country cant afford to pay for it all with the current taxation levels and money left in the coffers.
So lets talk solutions
1) Increase taxes to pay for it
2) Let the fees stay as there are therefore some universities will close due to lack of finance, therefore less places available to prospective students
3) Every student in Britain not just England pay fees and keep the levels the same
4) Cut further other services, therefore theory lead to more people out of jobs

What solution would you go for Nik and others? Im very interested if we can come up with our own theory to fund university places

My only theories would be.
1) Enforce Scotland to come to the party and pay their share.
2) Shorten these random degrees that can be, prob about 90% and not make Uni not seem like such a holiday and having 3/4 years out when you probably study in less than half that. 2 years max and then out to work. That could mean, bigger turnover through Uni\'s, therefore more through the stiles, more paying!