Upsetting

[jetpilot]

Dr S, in a way i couldnt agree more in some ways! I dont even think out troops should be in Afghanistan, we blindly followed the USA and think its a war we will never win.

Who started it, well, The Twin Towers was the reason we went to Afghanistan in force!

We had this whole discussion at work yesterday! I am unaware of the figures for genuine civilian casualties because of our interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan, however, we have at no point deliberately set out to kill innocent people. The attacks on the twin towers and london were calculated with one intent, to kill innocent people, men, women and children.

Our troops whether be that of ww1, 2 or our current wars have joined up and gone to these places all knowing that death could be on the cards, they have all been prepared to lay down their lives for the benefit of this country, which is the same as any soldier fighting against them, so do i feel sympathy that their brothers, friends have been killed in battle....No. Have they lost innocent family members etc, i doubt that massively. However, it was a day to remember the brave men that fought for us!

The burning of the poppy had none of this thought behind it buddy, it was done to shock, it was done to offend, if there was an intelligent thought behind it i would be incredibly surprised and it is steeped in irony because of the mentioned points in the thread before and the fact a paultry fine was handed out basically gives acceptance to doing whatever you like and getting away with it!

Its all about reversed priorities, i do not lie when i say i had a friend fined £80 for throwing a cig butt out a car window.

Sit back and watch the backlash now, this will only enrage the general populous and they are only making a rod for their own backs doing such things and my view is, if they hate this country that much, well, it speaks for itself!

[Nik da Greek]

Some interesting points on both sides of the fence here. Grant, I feel you\'ve let yourself down a bit there advocating that dictatorship is an answer to the inconvenience of people having opinions different to your own lol . Mr Pilot, essentially I understand the point but you\'re incorrect to state the poppy pre-dates problems in Afghanistan and other predominantly Muslim countries on, the Crusades for example were rather popular a while before WWI, and even more recently...after all Sherlock Holmes\' mate Dr Watson was wounded in the Afghan wars by a jezail bullet

The problem is certainly not a recent one, though the means of lodging protest by crashing airliners is obviously something denied to previous generations. The problem isnt necessarily one of religion or cultural difference, it\'s simply one of human intrasigence and mob mentality. Doesn\'t really matter the lines along which herd culture is stimulated, humans exist to advantage themselves at the expense of those around them.

[jetpilot]

I think it goes to show how good a forum this can be, a delicate subject discussed and some valid opinions!

Whatever the origins of the British Empire and our conquering past etc i just think the irony behind this is why there is such outrage at the punishment.

Its political correctness gone mad, everyday we are told, you cant be biased, you must accept, multi culturism works, you cant wear crosses at work and apparently now employers have the right to ask you to remove poppies!

However, it seems as a "minority" you are not bound to these criteria, you can do what you want with little or no punishment because you are the "minority".

We have seen enough to know that if a white british nationalist went to a muslim event where they honoured their dead and did something equally as offensive the punishment would far extend a £50 fine. We can discuss the logistics and reasons for the motives till we are blue in the face, but the above fact remains and i think this is what upsets people the most.

One rule for one and one for another.

[trotter]

Dr S, in a way i couldnt agree more in some ways! I dont even think out troops should be in Afghanistan, we blindly followed the USA and think its a war we will never win.
Who started it, well, The Twin Towers was the reason we went to Afghanistan in force!

We had this whole discussion at work yesterday! I am unaware of the figures for genuine civilian casualties because of our interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan, however, we have at no point deliberately set out to kill innocent people. The attacks on the twin towers and london were calculated with one intent, to kill innocent people, men, women and children.

Our troops whether be that of ww1, 2 or our current wars have joined up and gone to these places all knowing that death could be on the cards, they have all been prepared to lay down their lives for the benefit of this country, which is the same as any soldier fighting against them, so do i feel sympathy that their brothers, friends have been killed in battle....No. Have they lost innocent family members etc, i doubt that massively. However, it was a day to remember the brave men that fought for us!

The burning of the poppy had none of this thought behind it buddy, it was done to shock, it was done to offend, if there was an intelligent thought behind it i would be incredibly surprised and it is steeped in irony because of the mentioned points in the thread before and the fact a paultry fine was handed out basically gives acceptance to doing whatever you like and getting away with it!

Its all about reversed priorities, i do not lie when i say i had a friend fined £80 for throwing a cig butt out a car window.

Sit back and watch the backlash now, this will only enrage the general populous and they are only making a rod for their own backs doing such things and my view is, if they hate this country that much, well, it speaks for itself!

The Soviets tried it in the 80s, and look how well that turned out...

Interesting factoid: In Rambo 3, the American general is captured by the Soviets and is giving his captor a bollocking by saying, (paraphrasing here) "The simple fact is you didn\'t do you\'re homework, you should know these people would rather fight and die than surrender."

Also, at the end credits, the film is, "Dedicated to the gallant people of Afghanistan"

Define irony!!!

graeme

[gsb876]

The world is a mess - simples



sadly.

[DR SCHNITZEL]

One thing that strikes me as kind of strange is there is a belief that the world trade centre thing was the first act. I have not looked into the supposed reasons why these people decided to do this. i will when i get some time. but do you think maybe US had repressed or killed middle eastern people before this act?....It is never spoken of.
 
So lets say this was the first "act" i.e they started it... Why then did they/we destroy /attack and kill many many civilians in Iraq destroyed the Iraq cities. We found no WMDs and we gave Mr. Huss a fair trial then publicly hung him... Ha..Its crazy.
 
What has Iraq got to do with anything to do with 9/11?
 
Dont the US know that the only people who can attack their country are currently living in the US watching as them tear though Afghan...we take areas of afhan, move away then 3 months later the area is riddled with explosives..then the cycle starts again...it is an impossible war...if it really a war at all...and troops will wind down and they will just give up....Oh but i remember now.....its just about the oil...we dont really need to be there anymore.
 
(scarcastic) glad that when we left Iraq we set up a prosperous democracy which is hitting the news for the speed of recovery..Its going to be the new Dubai..well done guys great job!!!
 
Do me a favour guys. watch the news on Libiya as ive been doing for the past week as it was the only english channel i could get in my hotel... Do you think the pictures in the reports are missing the vital parts of the story that is supposed to be happening there.
 
Its either poor poor poor journalism or something fishy is going on.. or am i going mad?

[Will66]

The reason that Al Qaeda have been bombing Western Targets and generally dislike the West is that they resented the deployment of Coalition Troops to Saudi Arabia, the country which has the place of pilgrimage for Muslims, during the first Gulf War.  Particularly given the same Western Nation\'s support for Israel.  They see this a violation of their sacred locations and an offence against Allah.  

The World Trade Centre wasn\'t even the first act of terrorism they committed, they attacked the same building in 1993.  However the events of September the 11th 1991 were an exceptional event and with the explosion of 24 hour news media it was easily carried around the world and we were saturated with the story constantly through multiple media outlets.

Afghanistan was only attacked because it was where Al Qaeda were basing their operations from and the Taliban Regime were supporting them.  The Contemporary US administration saw themselves literally as "Team America: World Police" and took a Unilateral Police Action to eliminate an area where Al Qaeda could operate.  The reason we are there now is to actually make the nation into a functioning part of the international community and it is beholden upon us to do so after deposing the previous regime, it\'s an ugly place and we shouldn\'t have gone there in the first place, but we\'re there now and we need to leave it in a state where it can look after itself.  There will not be a point where we can realistically say "We\'ve beaten the Taliban!" They\'re not an enemy like we encountered during WWII where we will see their formal surrender, or the Cold War where their system of government will lead to the fundamental collapse of their regime.  However that\'s not to say we should not work to marginalise their influence to such an extent that they\'re negligible and that the regular people of Afghanistan are able to live in a free and fair society.

Going into Iraq to find WMDs was wrong, the intelligence was not conclusive but I think what they have now is better than before, and I\'ve asked Iraqis and they agree.  Make no mistake Saddam Hussein was a nasty man and living in his Iraq was not a nice place for ordinary people.  It\'s a long way from being perfect, but it\'s a lot better than it was.  

My personal feeling is that we went to Iraq because the US wanted to finish the job it should have finished in 1991.

Regardless, we are now into the political and diplomatic machinations of the conflicts where we have British Armed Forces Deployed to.

Originally this was about the acts of Muslim Extremists in burning Poppies at a Remembrance Day ceremony.

I am currently serving as a Royal Navy Officer in the Submarine Service, I\'ve been an Officer in the RN (in the surface fleet) for the last six and a bit years and I have served in Iraq and in support of operations in Afghanistan, as well as Operations in UK waters.  The politics of the situation are not a consideration of the Soldiers, Sailors or Airmen serving in conflict theatres.  We are there trying to make sure we achieve our mission and get everyone home safe.  I look upon Remembrance Day as a time to remember the ones we didn\'t get home safe.  They weren\'t there because they wanted to be, they were doing their job and their job got them killed.

[Lacey]

At the end of day like you said we live in a Democracy and we have freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech is the freedom to speak freely without censorship or limitation, or both. The synonymous term freedom of expression  is sometimes used to indicate not only freedom of verbal speech but any  act of seeking, receiving and imparting information or ideas,  regardless of the medium used. In practice, the right to freedom of  speech is not absolute in any country and the right is commonly subject  to limitations, such as on "hate speech".