The reasons synthetic oils are better

[g11ary]

More interesting facts, that are ONLY related to the additives your you tube video promotes.
http://www.ftc.gov/os/1999/11/prolong.do.htm

This is interesting, from Prolongs own site, a data sheet.
http://www.prolong.com/images/msds-sdet.pdf

Look at section 5
Note that it has a low Flash Point - 300 F well below combustion temperatures in an engine - particularly a rotary.
Note what is in the decomposition components - oils should not give off hydrogen chloride.....
note also the health / flammability and Reactivity ratings of 1/1/1.  Motor Oils should be 0/1/0.

Look in Section 9
Density is 1.08 meaning it\'s heavier than water which is 1.0 and oils which are 0.9.
The Flashpoint is confirmed again as being less than 150 C.
The viscosity is less than 5 cSt @ 100 C which means it will lower the viscosity of a 5W30 Motor Oil which is typically 9-10 cSt @ 100 C.

Again I say this is only relevant to the additive, and as yet I cant find a data sheet for the oil, perhaps MRP will put one on the forum for us.
BUT this is relevant to the additive that Prolong say you have to add to have a warrantee. (up to 17 bottles of)

I would welcome any of MRP answers or tech data they quote but do not provide
"MRP have put a lot of research into this new oil which IS a mineral oil but with all the capabilities of the very best synthetic oils on the market and not only that the properties of this oil are so good it can be used as an Engine Oil, a Gear Box Oil and a Differential Oil all out of one can indeed this oil has made the claim of being,
THE WORLD’S MOST POWERFUL MOTOR OIL! "

[Mazdarotaryparts]

Hi, my name is Michael Purchase and I am a consultant for Prolong UK and I hope that I can shed some light on the issues raised with regards to Prolong within this thread, as all the issues raised are valid and worthwhile points, which to be honest I am very grateful to have the opportunity to address.

I think that perhaps it is best to start with the court action mentioned. This was undertaken by the Federal Trade Commission in 1999 and was levied at a number of US companies such as Slick 50, Duralube, STP and Prolong in an attempt to ensure that all marketing statements being used were true. After an 18 month investigation into every claim made by Prolong, and approximately $10,000,000 spent in independent scientific research, Prolong entered into an agreement with the Federal Trade Commission whereby Prolong agreed not to make any statements without there being adequate scientific evidence to support such claims, prior to their use, at which point we requested to have "The World\'s Most Powerful Oil" trademarked, and as such have been using this slogan since. The agreement has been  complied with 100% since 1999. Incidentally, unlike others who were ordered to pay up to $10 million, Prolong were not given any fine by the FTC. As in below post here is a link to the findings of the FTC action http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/legal/prodecis.html. It is an unfortunate fact for us that the wording within this document seems to indicate a wrong doing on our part until the very important line "unless, at the time the representation is made, respondent possesses and relies upon competent and reliable scientific evidence that substantiates the representation" Which vindicates all statements.

I started with this point in the hope that this adds more weight behind every statement that has been/and is continued to be made since this agreement.

I would next like to introduce our patent http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=8&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=4,844,825&OS=4,844,825&RS=4,844,825, which while not being a particularly marketable aspect to an oil, is in actuality a fundamental property of our lubricants, that being a process whereby the previously unstable and volatile nature of chlorinated paraffins are stabilized. It has long been recognized that chlorinated parafins have superb extreme pressure properties, and are therefore great in reducing friction, until they are exposed to heat, as they are within an internal combustion engine, whereby they break down to form hydrochloric acid, and begin harming the engine they were there to protect. It was for this reason that they have not been used within full motor oils for many years, an ASTM D130 rating is given to all motor oils which indicates how stable they are  and therefore suitable for use within an engine. Prolong has an ASTM D130 !a rating, the highest possible, meaning it is less corrosive than Castrol GTX, and this rating has been given to all our full motor oils.

Prolong have been producing full motor oils for a number of years now, and primarily only to add credence to the technology behind our lubricants, as it is a fact the regulations associated with the production of motor oils are far more stringent than for those associated with additives, therefore our oils are a way for us to demonstrate that we stand up to the more rigorous standards present today.

With regards to the warranty that accompanies our oil. The UK warranty was underwritten by Llyods who unfortunately did state that a vehicle has to have done under 100,000 miles at time of first application so you could put the oil in at 99,000 and the warranty will continue to run for as long as you own the vehicle. As it is a fact that due the extreme pressure properties of our oil, that once the oil is in, it is no longer possible for the metal surfaces to wear each other away, as the film strength in in excess of that which they can apply upon themselves, meaning that if the engine is working at the time you put the oil in, it will continue to do so indefinately, with only non-lubricant related failures being possible such as a timing belt going, or structural faults within the metal components themselves.

I am sorry at this point to render void the calculations G11ary performed with regards to costing, due to the fact that in actual fact the UK warranty requires services as per the manufacturers recommended intervals, only stipulating further use of our oil, therefore meaning there is no additional cost incurred over and above that which you would expect from your having used a high quality oil.

With regards to the temperature this is an area that is very key, and one which causes us significant frustration, as it is a fact the core active ingredient within our oils is actually able to withstand temperatures up to 1000 degrees Fahrenheit, however when mixed with other constituents this is reduced, with regards to spec sheets it is the lowest common denominator. 450 degrees Fahrenheit is that which is stated on our spec sheets, however this does not take into account the fact that the extreme pressure properties of our oil reduces temperatures, as well as the fact that a significant percentage of the oil in reality can withstand far greater temperatures.

The bottom line with regards to Prolong, is that our products do what they say they do, which to date has not been the case with some other companies, who at first glance appear to have comparable products, as they profess similar properties perhaps, just lacking to highlight the inevitable side effect that they invariably have (such as corrosive or have solid particles), and no doubt it is our mis-association with such companies which has prompted these queries, which as stated at the beginning are all valid and, in the interests of all who read, need to be addressed properly, for which I thank the below listers for taking the interest and creating the arena for these to be addressed.

No doubt there will probably be some further areas requiring clearing up for which I will be only too happy to address.

Kind Regards

Mike

[Prof]

Interesting - been following this discussion for a couple of days now.
 
One thing I\'m interested in - does anyone publish or have details of the sort of temperatures that exist in the various parts of a rotary engine and turbo ?
 
Clearly the bulk of the oil will remain at a much lower temperature than some of the areas in the engine - but what about those parts of the engine closest to the exhaust manifold - where temps are likely to be hitting the hottest - or indeed, in the turbo.  Here the oil has a very important job - in oil only turbo\'s it\'s both cooling and lubricating - how hot do the CHRA\'s run ?
 
I\'d appreciate any info anyone has on the rotary engine - it\'s hot spots and any mods that aid cooling.  Bit off topic perhaps, but related to the oil operating temperature none the less.

[g11ary]

Hi Michael.
Thanks for your time and replying to this thread.
As I said in threads above my arguments was with the way it was advertised and the adverts were for your additive and not your oil, which I said I had no very little knowledge of and if Prolong have moved on since the additive problems then great. Most manufacturers have experimented and made errors, changed an moved on. But your distributor MRP has used misleading adverts (10 years old) and not answered any of the questions raised.
This thread and other threads on forum have in past asked questions of oil and usually been answered in one way or another satisfactorily or not, MRP have replied or answered none, after making very big claims.

I have to confess if you go on the FTC site there are lots to read through so it does make for confusing reading.
My link above suggests an out of court settlement with firm understandings not to mislead in advertising.
http://www.ftc.gov/os/1999/11/prolong.do.htm
But this is additives which are 10 years old, we would like to know more of the oil.

Thanks for your paragraph on the patent and ASTM D130 rating, this does sound good.

Thanks for going some way to clarify the warrantee, so you are saying if Im correct you ONLY need buy the oil and change at manufacturers intervals to obtain the warrantee providing the engine has done less than 100,000 miles and it is covered for life of the engine but not transferable?

But the Prolong site contradicts this with this statement.

"Keep with recommended service intervals and add Prolongs Booster Engine Treatment at oil changes (no more than 6000 miles/ 6 months)"

Full information here
http://www.prolong-uk.com/index.php?action=news&newsid=8

This suggests warrantee is invalid if not used with additive. Can you please clarify so I do not have it wrong.

As my calculations were as you pointed out wrong because of the unlimited warrantee unless on a 98 spec car or younger, if you car has no warrantee because it is over 10 years old my figures would have been higher as I calculated them on 6000 changes as per your max allowed on your warrantee page, but Mazda ask for 3000 mile changes so would have been double my estimate approximately.

Do you know what the combustion temp is in a rotary and how would this affect low temp range of core ingredients. Does this mean in a very hot running engine it wold be burnt off before effective or that it will be not present only n the combustion area of the rotor? Does it have any significance at all?

MRP quote on there site it is a rotary oil, can you confirm this, or is it Prolongs oil available for all and suitable for rotaries.

Thanks for your information to date, if MRP had not used misleading information or hype videos not related to the oil these questions may have never been raised and could now serve you if the answers on, extensive research are openly given and not just words.
REF my post number 118. questions still not answered.

I dont want to post further on this subject but will follow with interest any further comments and developments, it would just be nice if questions asked,  as you say "valid and worthwhile" were answered.

Thanks for your time.

[Mazdarotaryparts]

I just wanted to clarify the relevance that the aforementioned video clips have with the Rotary Engine Formula Motor Oil. The videos were produced to advertise the Engine Treatment, but are valid marketing material to use as every performance benefit and claim can be reproduced with the oil.

The clips were edited and produced by us, on behalf of Mazda Rotary Parts to help them launch the oil to their customers.

The Rotary Engine Formula differs from our regular motor oil, as every aspect of the blend was aimed to reduce the burn rate of the oil, as well as elevated levels of core technology in light of the high performance aspects of the rotary engine.

I hope that this verifies the validity of Mazda Rotary Parts marketing, which in no way has been misleading and stands to benefit significantly every owner of a rotary engine.

Kind Regards

Mike

[Mazdarotaryparts]

As a result of these posts above certain people saw it could be in their best interests to complain officially to Trading Standards with complaints that after investigation have not been upheld.

Mazdarotaryparts would like to take the opportunity to state that this was actually not viewed as a problem indeed we welcomed the challenge toward a product we firmly believed could enhance the life of the Rotary Engine.

As a result of the complaint Mazdarotaryparts had the claims of the Prolong Rotary Oil product, the validity of the warranty issued and all relevant advertising statements, be they web site, forum, video or other fully investigated.


Quite rightly the Trading Standards wished to make sure that the product was not wrongfully sold or advertised.


Trading Standards Agency has concluded its investigation and the result is that Mazdarotaryparts have not been asked or told to withdraw either the product or alter any advertising material surrounding Prolong Rotary Oil .


Mazdarotaryparts would also like to make it very clear that at no stage were any derogatory comments  made toward any makes of oil specifically on Mazdarotaryclub,  with the only  comments passed being that Mazda only recommend the use of Mineral oil inside of any of their Rotary Engines,


We would also like to make it very clear that had Prolong Rotary Oil not been Mineral based that Mazdarotaryparts would not sell the oil as it would go against the official Mazda recommendations.

Further information can be found on this thread.

  http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29434&highlight=Royal+Purple

The last thing we will make clear is that we at Mazdarotaryparts were asked if we would like to put in an official complaint by the Trading Standards Agency against the company/person that had issued the complaint,

This is a request that Mazdarotaryparts has declined.

[Wo:Deep]

I made a little oil - summary...

And the best oil (by far) when you look @ the values is MOTUL 300V factory line 15W50.
As the Silcolene also a motorcycle oil. But completely esther (double esther) basestocks. no "mixture".

@ Simon: what are your thoughts about using this oil in Rotaries. The values are obviously great!

here are the values:
                                                                                           

Motoröle:	MOTUL 300V   factory line
SAE Grade:	15W-50
Flash Point:	252,00
Sulfated Ash:	0,97
HTHS   Viscosity:	5,33
dyn Viscosity   @ 15°C
kin Viscosity   @ 40°C	115,70
kin Viscosity   @ 100°C	17,01
density @ 15°C	0,87
NOACK	4,90

[jacekr35]

Hi Oilman
 
As I know all the thread.
Just a simple question. Would you also recommend synth oil for first gen SA22 rotary 1979 ?
standard engine but hardly use in historic rally and race
 
I think about Motul 300V Le Mans 20w60 competition
 
JacekR35

[metalCORE]

@Wo:deep: spend any time following this thread? oilman has mentioned it on page 1 (post # 3, to be exact).

(Einfach eine gute Möglichkeit, dich mal wieder feiern zu lassen, gell? ;-) )

[jacekr35]

There is no question about modern rotaries - synth are ok. I am asking about 1979 rotary engine. (30 years old )
old rubber seals. Oilman mentioned that synth olis are comapatible with rubber seals for last 20 years. Are they good also for 30 years old first gen. rotaries ?

[metalCORE]

@Jacek: my post was directed to wo:deep, not you.

I don\'t know what oilman can recommend for an SA, but i guess it could be similar to the others, rotaries it self are not so different, and you have to use new rubber/seals in your older engine equally.

The benefit of these oils is independent from the type of the rotary, i suppose.

[clive]

There is no question about modern rotaries - synth are ok. I am asking about 1979 rotary engine. (30 years old )
old rubber seals. Oilman mentioned that synth olis are comapatible with rubber seals for last 20 years. Are they good also for 30 years old first gen. rotaries ?

I had a search for you and found that this was said about Motul 300V Le Mans 20w60 competition


Oil for High Performance 4 stroke engine
Designed for professional of racing
100% Synthetic

As it is 100% Synthetic I would strongly advise against it as this has been know to swell up and destroy the oil seals on either side of the Rotors leading to engine failure,


Mazda says "Mineral Only" in ANY Rotary and they issued a prohibition notice and asked me to post it here on MRC and the RX8OC to tell the would NOT to use non Mineral in ANY  Rotary so I am at a loss  as to why these debates continue after all Mazda have made a few Rotarys over the years and surely they have every right to demand what is the best type of oil they want used.


Hope this helps

[DSNorth]

Thanks for a very informative post

Ive always run fully Synth , but only cos I was told to :d

Now I know why

[damehyndman]

I\'ve been following this thread since it first started and I certainly have no technical input, but it strikes me that Mazda don\'t help much if on one hand they advise semi-synthetics (that are not really synthetics) for the RX8 and now advise mineral only for ALL rotaries.

As the Fat Controller says on Thomas The Tank Engine they "are causing confusion and delay!"

[stew]

Simon/Guy- alright fella\'s. Still have some ProS 5w40 from when I had the Elise. Just buying an FD3s, pick it up Saturday. Glad to know that ProS is ok for tuned rotary engines. The car I\'m buying has 350+bhp.

Will give you a call sometime for Diff oil too.

Stew Toal