The reasons synthetic oils are better

[RobMatthews]

off topic macer is that your car in your avitar?looks nice any more pics?

[DR SCHNITZEL]

i think the race teams will go for synth as they prob have money to burn and longevity isnt such a matter to them. if synth does make carbon build up/ clogged engines  then its no good for us semi poor road users is it? there must be an economic reason to use mineral oils as synth depending on use

[Wo:Deep]

Hey fellows...
look at here...
this is what Mazdaspeed sais about oil.
And when you read it, you´ll know why the most racing teams use synth oil.
And you can have a chance deciding what will be the right thing for you!

Here you go:

"1. Synthetic oil is not recommended, unless emissions components and oil injection are removed, and premix fuel is used.

Because the rotary uses oil injection synthetic oil could reduce the life of emission components such as catalytic converters and O2 sensors.

Also, the rotary burns oil to lubricate the the apex seals, and synthetic oil burns at a higher temp than mineral based oil. Repeated short trips may cause synthetic oil build up, leading to spark plug fouling.

Finally, oil sprayed inside the rotor cavities can contact the rotor oil seal O-rings, and oil inside the combustion chamber can contact the housing seal O-rings. Long term exposure to synthetic oil may cause these seals to swell and deteriorate.
"

Unfortunately their site is down at the moment, so I can´t post all...
Luckily I posted in another forum 90% of the text...

The last sentence I know tells something about that you can achieve slightly more hp with synth. oil. But you should only use it only if emissions components and oil injection are removed, and premix fuel is used!!


Hope that helped

Kind regards
Marc

[BlitzBoy]

Good infor, What premix oil do you use, im using 2 stroke shell oil at the moment

[arrouk]

i use millers kb2t, im told its safe with meth injection as well.

matt

[g11ary]

The great oil debate.
A while ago I was selling RP here on MRC and there were lots of debates as to how good it was, and each to his own, as the right oil for my car debate will go on for some while Im sure. Some vendors and members had very strong views on the subject of using a fully syn oil in a rotary.

But when I read threads on MRC about Prolong oils, American hype all too good to be true, it makes me sit up and think.
Every oil has a spec sheet and from that I can pretty much tell what\'s the additive, is this available?
On looking around I have found out that the prolong additives are chloride based and when mixed with moisture which every engine produces, turns in to hydrochloric acid, which loves to eat metal.

Im also waiting on a web site to be emailed over to me, a government site in USA where Prolong have been sued for 20-30 million dollars for false advertising.

So if using this oil, it might be prudent to get the engine replacement guarantees in writing from the seller, as Prolong have either insured against it, hence the high price for a mineral oil with an additive pack or it covers the costs of any law cases here.

[Mazdarotaryparts]

I would advise that anybody who decides as Gary has to try and pin the tail on the donkey to try and get their facts correct.

Please see this apology to Prolong below that a magazine has had to print after getting it wrong in Sepember 2008 !

PROLONG â€" AN APOLOGY

In the September 2008 issue, under the title Fuel-Saving Myths & Tips, David Ahl referred directly to the products of Prolong Super Lubricants Inc alongside products produced by the oil-additive companies Slick 50, STP, Zmax, and Duralube. David made specific reference to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) action that took place in 1999, which was levelled at all of the companies mentioned including Prolong. However, we would like to make it clear that, unlike the other companies, Prolong was not fined by the Commission and has since been allowed to continue to market its product as \'The World’s Most Powerful Oil\'.

Prolong has entered into an agreement with the FTC which states that they will not market or advertise that their product offers any kind of benefits without adequate independent scientific evidence to support the statements being available prior to the claims being made. For more information, visit http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/legal/prodecis.html.

Our article also stated that the use of Prolong would have \'virtually no effect on engine efficiency and certainly not on fuel mileage\'. On the contrary, a study performed at the US National Training Facility at Fort Irwin on behalf of the National Automotive Center (NAC) of the US Army Tank, Automotive and Armaments Command (TACOM) states explicitly that \'Test results indicate significant potential reduction in oil and exhaust temperatures and improvement in miles/gallon of fuel\'.

It was also stated that some additives can \'interfere and react with the additives already present in your oil\' and that \'some additives actually have particles that can clog oil passages and clog filters\'. We accept that none of these flaws is present within Prolong’s technology as evidenced by the fact that the product is not actually an additive and that Prolong is a producer of full motors oils, all of which include the same active ingredients that are included in the company\'s engine treatment. All of Prolong\'s motor oils meet the API standards mentioned in the article.
 
We would like to apologise to Prolong Super Lubricants for any misunderstandings that may have been caused by the piece. We would also like to reassure readers that the Prolong technology is patented and unique and that the company produces the only surface modifying oil available for use in internal combustion engines. Prolong remains stable and effective under both high loads and temperatures and provides considerable improved film strength under both extreme pressure and heat, even when compared to synthetic oils.

[royal]

This is not a complete portrayal of the truth. You\'ve used 10yr old videos to promote this oil and the FTC did rule them illegal with no scientific basis. Just because the claims made by the article have had successful action due to the army tests doesn\'t mean the videos are any more truthful. A quick search on the Federal Trade Commision site brings up a multitude of successful cases brought against prolong oils.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
It looks like the most scientific tests done were actually by General Motors. I can\'t look at the link from work but the excerpt below has a good summarisation. Isn\'t the rotary housing aluminium?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=55412

Deaffy,

Thanks for your response - it got me off my (considerable!) duff and got me back out investigating chlorinated hydrocarbons in lubricants. I didn\'t want to respond until I had something at least semi-intelligent to say.

I agree with you that Prolong is completely worthless - in some situations. Briefly, here\'s why:

The chlorine compounds that make up the lubricant package in Prolong bind themselves most effectively to iron and steel, forming Ferric Chloride (FeCl) compounds. In a "steel-on-steel" situation, these chlorinated hydrocarbons appear to be a very effective friction reducer.

Those same chlorine compounds DO NOT bind well to aluminum, magnesium or other non-ferrous metals.

The tests were conducted by GM using their own engines, which have a high percentage of non-ferrous load bearing surfaces inside them; of course they grenaded early on!

As far as Vanagon engines go, while there is a significant amount of "steel-on-steel" contact (cylinders and rings, which chlorinated hydrocarbons will help), there is also some non-ferrous load contact, (which they will do little or nothing for).

Aside from the fact that chlorinated packages are found in many name-brand lubricants, I partially retract my endorsement of using Prolong in VW engines; I will continue to use it in my vehicles for the sake of the ferrous load contacts, but will caution others in future that it just might be so much cash down the drain.

For a moderately in-depth review of chlorinated hydrocarbons (paraffins, lipids, etc.) in lubricants, go to this link and also take time to read the referenced source materials. This link has zero affiliation with Prolong, is a dispassionate view of the subject, and I think you\'ll find some heavy but accurate info here:

http://www.mpc-home.com/htmls/Chlorine%20and%20Engine%20Oils.htm

Steve

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Is this the original mentioned article?
http://www.thegsresources.com/garage/gs_additive.htm

And more

http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~rblander/snake_oil.txt

As if we needed any more evidence about the bogus claims
of the "Snake Oil" merchants, there\'s an interesting article
in the October 1998 issue of Consumer Report magazine about
an oil additive called "Prolong".  Their nationwide television
ads claim that this oil treatment bonds a 1-molecule-thick
low-friction coating to metal surfaces in the engine resulting
in longer life, better mileage, more savings.  It supposedly
protects the engine even when the oil is drained.  The ads show
Al Unser driving a Dodge Viper on a racetrack in the Mojave Desert
without oil or drain plug, and a testimonial from a woman who
supposedly drove from Santa Barbara to L.A., almost 5 hours,
with no engine oil.

Consumer Report took two factory rebuilt GM 4.3 litre V6 motors,
had them installed into Chevy Caprices, broke them in with regular oil,
changed the oil and filter, added Prolong to one engine, drove another
hundred miles or so to let the stuff take effect, then drained
the oil out.   Both engines failed simultaneously after 5 miles
and about 13 minutes.   The Federal Trade Commission has been notified.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
(and a successful case brought against Prolong oils)

[g11ary]

Not trying to pin any donkeys, you has a strong opinion about RP when I advertised it and was very vocal to others about not using it.
I to have an opinion about mineral oils and have the same right to express it, especially as you advertise it all hype and razzmatazz.

Let people make there own minds up, just as I had to allow when you were posting not to use RP.

You thread with the video links I found (and thats only my opinion rather extreme) so I asked the experts as they have better knowledge than i do.

I was pointed to some links by the FTC a government run body in USA so no bias.
This thread shows claims were unsubstantiated
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1999/09/prolong.shtm

there are lots of articles on there about Prolong, I have found at least half dozen, but have not had time to read all of them.

This was a independent test carry out after the video you showed.

"As if we needed any more evidence about the bogus claims
of the "Snake Oil" merchants, there\'s an interesting article
in the October 1998 issue of Consumer Report magazine about
an oil additive called "Prolong".  Their nationwide television
ads claim that this oil treatment bonds a 1-molecule-thick
low-friction coating to metal surfaces in the engine resulting
in longer life, better mileage, more savings.  It supposedly
protects the engine even when the oil is drained.  The ads show
Al Unser driving a Dodge Viper on a racetrack in the Mojave Desert
without oil or drain plug, and a testimonial from a woman who
supposedly drove from Santa Barbara to L.A., almost 5 hours,
with no engine oil.
 
Consumer Report took two factory rebuilt GM 4.3 litre V6 motors,
had them installed into Chevy Caprices, broke them in with regular oil,
changed the oil and filter, added Prolong to one engine, drove another
hundred miles or so to let the stuff take effect, then drained
the oil out.   Both engines failed simultaneously after 5 miles
and about 13 minutes.   The Federal Trade Commission has been notified."

the full article can be found here.
http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~rblander/snake_oil.txt

IF prolong have moved on, then good for them, but the video you show was related to the test done in 1998.

I will let the members make there minds up, and if Im wrong I will unreservedly apologise.

[Mazdarotaryparts]

If you have taken the time to read the above now consider this,

MRP are not selling Prolong additive but a complete Motor oil specifically designed for the Rotary.

I would like to think that people will be aware that for me to back something as controversial as putting a "different" type of oil into a Rotary would not be taken lightly.

Long before Prolong Rotary Oil was released onto the market I made it very very clear that they HAD to convince me first of the oils benefits long before I would ever consider selling Prolong through my company after all since I started my apprenticeship with Mazda in 1973 on Rotaries and to this day I have been actively telling "you only put mineral oil in a Rotary, end of !"

Now work it out, this means I have told people for 35 years to use normal Mineral oil in any Rotary!

However one thing had always bothered me and that was with the advent of the Turbo engine it did not seem really right to put "standard" mineral oil through a hot Turbo that demands more than just adequate luberication.

The very first thing I needed to know from Prolong was that, a, this new oil would be a full mineral and that, b, it would contain enough ester content to ensure that oil residue was burnt out of the chamber fully and would not create any harmfull build up that is potentialy very damaging to the Rotary engine.

Over the next few months Prolong not only supplied me with satisfactory answers to all of the many questions I threw at their tech guys but also made me fully aware of Federal court proceedings documents in America that actually worked in their favor and not against them, indeed you will see that I made reference to the Federal Court in my initial advertising post.

http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50995

Two months before the Rotary oil was launched I put this new Oil into the sump of my own 6,000 mile RX-8 as my contention was that if I was not prepared to experience the benefits of this new Oil then I could not and would not expect my customers to do so.

I have now committed my company to selling Prolong Rotary Motor oil with the sound belief that the life of the Rotary will be extended by use of this new engine oil even with out the other benifits that this new Rotary Motor Oil brings.

[Mazdarotaryparts]

This is not a complete portrayal of the truth. You\'ve used 10yr old videos to promote this oil and the FTC did rule them illegal with no scientific basis. Just because the claims made by the article have had successful action due to the army tests doesn\'t mean the videos are any more truthful. A quick search on the Federal Trade Commision site brings up a multitude of successful cases brought against prolong oils.

I would ask how do you know that it is not a portrayal of the truth and that certain quality\'s from the additive are not used today within the new Rotary Oil.

[Mazdarotaryparts]

Not trying to pin any donkeys, you has a strong opinion about RP when I advertised it and was very vocal to others about not using it.
I to have an opinion about mineral oils and have the same right to express it, especially as you advertise it all hype and razzmatazz.

Let people make there own minds up, just as I had to allow when you were posting not to use RP.

Sadly this does smack of sour grapes I\'m afraid, however the warning was to be very careful when attacking a company when legalities are involved which was why I have put up the apology letter that a magazine has been forced to print.

[g11ary]

I was questioning your advert, and Im allowed to ask questions about the oil if its as good as its supposed to be.

Your original add says you have a lot of research, can I ask what this research was, any independent tests?
You also say you have put in in your 6000 mile RX8, how many miles has it now done and are there any documents showing the results of your testing?
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50995&highlight=mineral+oil

When you 1st posted this oil I had no comments, but your last thread I feel was misleading and although the old is different to the additive, you are selling the oil, using 2 videos of tests done using the additive and tests that were proven to be misleading in  a court of law.
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52553&highlight=mineral+oil

No sour grapes, as I said if Prolong have moved on then great, but you are using misleading advertising.

Maybe trading standards could shed some light.

Hopefully this thread could prove useful with some real research and technical notes, if talks are kept sensible.

[royal]

I\'m sorry clive but I\'m going to need more than your \'name\' to make me trust that.
Why did you use those videos to advertise the product if you wanted to project a professional image? They are blatently a joke. I wandered if it would be worth using the oil in the drift cars but it only took 5 minutes to find more negative references than lehman brothers accounts books..
Even if prolong had somehow completely changed their tune with the new \'oil\' as opposed to the additive, which doesn\'t seem likely given their history,I can\'t understand why a professional engine builder like yourself would get taken in by those videos?

Apart from your name and time in the industry you still havn\'t answered any of the queries above. What is the difference with the rotary version? Is it the same additive added to a mineral oil instead of a semi? That still doesn\'t change the chloride issues mentioned above.

[g11ary]

I have read through a couple of the Prolong web sites,
http://www.prolong.com/
http://www.prolong.co.za/3Automotive%20Tech.htm
And I cant find a mention of there new oil, in there HQ or other countries. Is this oil unique to UK?
I can only find on a UK site
http://www.prolong-uk.com/

Just a couple of questions as I cant find the answers on a Prolong site, your site quotes.

"This unique Motor Oil Specifically meets the needs of the Rotary Engine by offering the following advantages:
Greater than Minerals (what does this mean)? better? what is greater than?
Improves Performance (cool ok)
Reliability & Longevity (cool ok)
Ionic Bonding Completely (cool ok)
Eliminates Dry Starts (cool ok)
Withstands Temps 100°C ( I though all mineral oils will survive up to about 100-110 degrees, but fully synthetics are ok to about 130? thought this had been covered by oilman.
Greater than Synthetics (whats this mean)? "

Your site also says

"Prolong\'s Patented technology utilizes ionic bonding technology to offer extreme pressure protection, which reduces temperatures, slowing burn rate, while also being able to withstand temperatures in excess of 450 degrees." degrees what F or C?

When I used to run an exhaust temp probe it used to run at 1800-1900 degrees as rotaries are very hot, I would have thought that inside temps might be a little higher, hopefully someone that knows may confirm this. So converting 1800 degrees Fahrenheit to Celsius is 982 degrees, and if I do it the other way round 1800 Celsius becomes 3272 Fahrenheit?

Your site also goes on to say
"The only oil to come with a free lifetime engine warranty"

This is not strictly the whole story, the Prolong web site quotes.

"For vehicles under 10 years of age and having no more than 100,000 miles on first engine treatment. Keep with recommended service intervals and add Prolongs Booster Engine Treatment at oil changes (no more than 6000 miles/ 6 months)"

So only RX7\'s that are 1998 will have the warrantee cover, and that\'s only providing they can produce receipts for regular servicing  and can prove they also have bought the engine booster treatment, another additive. It also says 100k miles which most RX7\'s will be very near covering already, so warrantee is quite limited in terms of mileage available to most.
http://www.prolong-uk.com/index.php?action=prod&pid=11100

Say the engine was new, 100,000 miles divide 6000 miles servicing = 16-17 bottles of additive approx cost £254 + delivery.
16-17 bottles of Prolong oil with an additive in it £849 + del.
20 bottles to keep topped up at an average of 1ltr per 1000 miles is another £999. +del
Total cost of using Prolong = £2102.
If the average engine running on mineral does 70k using no additive a cheap mineral it could be done for £ 555 using the same 37 bottles at £15 each or if a dear mineral was used at £25 each it would cost £925
So the extra 30,000 miles would cost between £1177 and £1547 for piece of mind.

Your site says.

"Finally! Rotary Engine Formula Motor Oil with Ionic Bonding Technology specially formulated to meet the needs of the high performance Rotary Engine."

What is unique for the rotary or am I reading it wrong, looks same formula for all cars, so not rotary specific?