Half Bridge Questions

[Grant Monkhouse]

Immaiming to have to whole are where I live annoyed with the sound my car will make. Then even more when the trans am and mustang are completed. V8s and open headers?! Loads of noise! Hahahahahaha

[Mir]

hmmmm Really you dont agree with Semi PP, hmmm you do realise the fastest 13Bs in the world including the 13B record holder run Semi PP 13B engines , high 6 second pass.

How can you not agree on something you have never did yourself Syed. In my own experiance I have run a street port and Half bridgeport and I personally know the difference and driven both and there is a difference trust me on this one.

And one tuners porting is different to another tuners porting, you can change the shape, volume ,closing and opening times. So this whole discussion is quite moot and in most instances its like comparing apples to oranges.

Another comment you made , that the life of PP engine is reduced substanially, this does not make sense, the port is no where near the water jacket like a J Port is and hence more likely to fail out of the two, I know cars with PP ports around the world and they havent been stripped down in years, PP ports have to be reliable as they mostly used in NA form in long races eg Le Mans 24Hrs, GT series etc etc

No disrespect Blitzen, I understand your experience with rotaries and further confirm that probably you have had more experience with rotaries than I :god, but I am only saying what I have read and discussed with the reputed rotary mechanics. For example (I hope you know) Gabby Skern, (Mapper of the Fastest Two rotary 6.97, driven by Eddie Collen), he  graduated in motorsports tunning. He agrees with me that PP does reduce the life span of the Engine.

You could refer to the following links and you would offcourse see the pros and cons of various ports but you would see it vividly that PP\'s con is, it reduces the life span of the engine.

http://www.turborx7.com/portingpictures.htm
http://www.rotaryengineillustrated.com/porting/peripheral-port-14.html

As mentioned above, I am just airing what I know. I am open to change and if there are evidences available which suggest otherwise, I would change my approach. I believe this club is designed for sharing experiences, so plz do share it with us.

I hope I have not offended anyone in any shap or form.

Syed

[PGiljevic]

Read this, and then tell me WHY? you need a bridge or peripheral port :Typing Remember this is relevant as we are talking real road cars! (you will see a proper real back to back comparison against a VERY LOUD semi race car run on road (see video and data) compared to a legal well thought out set up that is quiet, efficient, powerful and FAST (RICESP V\'s ND4SPD) detailed below and in various links, report is near bottom of this post.... VBOX3i does not lie.
DO NOT port your engine unless you want to go slower and hate life, your car, and yourself for making a great engine garbage in a street car application.

Link > to proper sized pics n .... > http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/showthread.php?t=13776

Original post:

Turbo Rotary Exhaust Systems *Road cars*

I\'ll contribute with a related item (topic above).

http://www.smb.net.au/products.htm (Full RX7 systems and individual components, race tested! in real endurance races for rotaries, not hobby hacks! or private attempts but full factory backing world beating efforts!)

I have been running and testing SMB (Special Mens Business) for about 6 years now. This company (Walker Manufacturing) made the original SP specification exhaust for the race RX7\'s which dominated the worlds best manufacturers in the ultimate production version of the FD3S (Mazda RX7SP).

http://www.walkerman.com.au/



http://www.smb.net.au/mazdarx7certificate.htm

I have been doing long term durability and power testing on a full single turbo "ultimate street system" that is fully road compliant, for noise level and emissions better than OEM levels. The parts are featured below (see std of quality and performance.

Full catalyst and middle muffler.

TEST VEHICLE SET UP (RICESP)


Sensor arrangement (turbine pressure, turbine speed, exhaust pressure, AFR, EGT each rotor to name a few parameters, real time power, velocity and time to back it up)




(RR turbine pipe, WG legal, SMB supplied flanges and bends)


Exhaust specifications 3.5", race quality (power wise) Catalyst (Performance Weaponry, another business arm of Walker/SMB), SMB 3.5" middle muffler, SMB pipe work, SMB rear SP specification rear muffler, all in 3.5" diameter and internals.
Here is pics of new super high flow cat, and picture of std 4" metal substrate cat.
To give you an idea I have measured 238rwkw on the std MS cat and no cat at all yielded 235rwkw! at same boost pressure.

The new version is for 450rwkw region! has basically the same flow as 3.5" straight pipe in flow testing.
















VBOX3i and RR file test report set up 100kmh to 200kmh in 7.5 seconds, note better than 1:1 exhaust pressure on a full catalyst system, see video for noise level (quiet and nice sounding) this is good tuning parts :coolgleamA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqvaMTJZn8k (video)



Air Strip testing 100kmh to 200kmh acceleration and power logging


Comparison to another FULL SMB muffler equipped vehicle (ND4SPD Capella)

To give this comparison test some context:
RICESP (stock std 13B-REW engine, full catalyst exhaust, T04 type turbo, plumb back waste gate, small standard inter cooler 1310kg)
*fully compliant genuine road car*

ND4SPD (Cosmo 13B, full bridge port, T51 type turbo charger, large front mounted inter cooler, gutted exhaust, open waste gate pipe 1250kg)
*quasi race car!*

I did some very interesting comparisons to ND4SPD (Mazda Capella I tuned with RRWEP110 WI) V\'s RICESP via the immense analysis power of the VBOX

I\'ll list up some comparison results: About the total FALLACY of " typical dyno sheets"! v\'s real world power and times taken for vehicles to actually do "work" with known levels of weight/mass!!!

This car makes on a dynohomodynamics ~390rwkw on 19psi boost (full bridge port & T51 turbo 1250kg as run at race track) where we got these recordings. You will see RICESP at 1310kg run weight is just as powerful (real rwkw! power as measured by me via VBOX!) and its just as fast in peak power band too (what really matters at the end of the day rather than poofter dyno sheet comparisons)

This report is of ND4SPD in its peak power band (6000rpm to 8200rpm) = 110kph to 150kph in 3rd gear on 19psi boost (VBOX measure = ~310rwkw owner has sheets of 380 to 390rwkw on homo dynamics guess machine)
ND4SPD = 110kmh to 150kmh = 2.07 seconds


This report shows RICESP and the first one is a FC RX7 fitted with a bridge port 13B running 15psi boost and a GT35 turbo lol (you can see I am twice as fast as it lol 4.43 seconds V\'s 2.06 seconds!) This car apparently makes 270rwkw dynohomodynaimcs @ 16psi boost LOL! You can see these dyno figures are not worth ....ing on in the REAL WORLD! and are vastly overstated from what the cars actually makes when you apply real physics to them!!!


And the other result table is at full boost when I tuned it (ND4SPD) on road just before setting national dyno record http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm < *read customer testimonial* (which to this day still stands!) for the only ever 13B rotary to lay down 3 back to back power runs of this level and still be able to drive home on pump petrol
Boost, EGT, RPM, AFR sensors fitted in this tuning session.
RICESP = 110kmh to 150kmh = 2.06 seconds


My RX7 is pretty quick I think you will all agree and this is still not sharing the current state of high power tune *I\'ll save that for another day*

[PGiljevic]

I hate my full bridge. The noise is ridiculous and it annoys all my neighbours. If you intend to drive it on a regular basis I would go for a street port

Any porting will make the car SLOWER over a stock standard port :3gears-lh
to add insult to injury it will be noisier, less efficient, use much more fuel, have a narrower power band, lack mid range power, be totally useless behind a normal manual syncromesh gear box, be adversely effected by any normal exhaust system (lower in power, choke on itself).

You will have a brap brap brap idle though :Hammer and that to some is more important than a car that works properly :o so each to their own :rollin

[PGiljevic]

A bridge will ultimately give you a wider powerband then a streetport and possibly spool a turbo slightly quicker

:rollin

BS ! on the wider power band, its actually the OPPOSITE

[PGiljevic]

OK iv decided to added water injection to the list but need to know some good makes and companies that supply them if anyone knows any
 
thanks in advance
 
Kris

Again > rad original links here for full size. http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/showthread.php?t=13776

Here it is for you to read here along with others, no hype or BS just real results to an order of detail NO OTHER PRETENDERS can muster nor ever will :Hammer

For my Water Injection Advice (as copied the world over but never replicated!) read the following:



VIDEO in action (RRWEP110 Water Injection system) > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lizxy3XIY8


Here > (how to do it) http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1590&page=6 (post #51 onwards)
History behind the system I pioneered & developed *over the last 15 years*! along with tuning advice (copied by MANY! word for word, product for product!, setting by setting!), again more real proof than anyone else pretending to know about this for rotaries.

What it does > (real records! NOT CLAIMS LIKE OTHERS!) http://www.riceracing.com.au/
http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm
Not one fictional power claim, but real cars, real customers, real records under controlled repeatable conditions, unmatched by anyone (discounting fictional claims and posts!)

[PGiljevic]

Whether it be a PP, bridge, Street or Stock PORTS, at the end of the day what matters the most is, what the actual owner of the car wants. Everyone, above, have spoken from their experience so I thought I can make a little input of my experience.

1 PP
1.1 Semi PP

2 Bridge Port
2.2 Half Bridge

3 Extended Street Port
3.3 Street Port

In my opinion, if you want a pure race car, then PP is all the way and there are several reasons, but it must be noted that with PP, the Engine life is reduced substantially... So its the call of the owner, what he really cares about-the life of the engine or pure fast car.

On the other hand, if you want a street car including a race car then you need a Street port.

I personally don\'t agree with Half bridge, Semi PP and extended street port business. All the aforementioned terms are confusing and also money making exercise-off course for the porters.

I would like to know the "power production difference" between "Extended Street port" compared with a mild Street Port i.e. Pineapple Racing Street port. I am just not convinced that, a normal street port will not attain the same power out put of an Extended Street port. Little bit of mapping and raising boost on the turbos will eventually achieve what an Extended Street port is producing. So why Extended then?

The above principle also applies to the other form of ports mentioned in the 2nd paragraph (above).

Moral of the Story.

PP
Bridge
Street

and thats it...terms before those ports are just not needed..believe me i have done a lot of research and I can say that I didn\'t find much of a difference. Pete (Rice Racing) has produced some figures/evidence and if you read those figures, you would not even want to port at all

No disrespect to anyone, just thought I should share what I think about porting..

Syed

Thanks Syed,

I posted it all up for people to read some real evidence on this subject and topic, I am the only person in the world who concerns themselves with REAL ROAD GOING ROTARIES and making the FASTEST ONES IN THE WORLD. I have been doing this for years n years, experimenting with all types of engines and porting styles, turbo systems, you name it I have f7cked around with it. I also believe in doing legitimate tests, stuff that anyone can replicate and there is no qualification or excuse, any customer or enthusiast can go repeat the exact same things.

I know what is fast and what is not, and for a street car better than anyone else in the world, if you are trying to compare drag cars or some other rubbish then you are living in a dream world and passing on just flat out BAD ADVICE to people period.

If you want to talk drag cars then no problem I\'m happy to put up information on those as well that run no sort of PP or semi PP or any other style of "magic port" that does 6\'s n sh7t..... The porting on a rotary motor is the most over rated and hyped up area known to man, next to adding extra dowels or studs kits LOL!!! :Hammer Totally irrelevant money making trash from mechanics who are trying to generate some more income to pay their rent @ the end of the day or line their own or their pushers (suppliers pockets) all the while selling you sh7t you DO NOT NEED. :rollin

Some will get their panties in a knot over my posts, too bad, when you can post up some legitimate test as applicable to real road going rotaries feel free to enter the debate :wave

[SiH]

What I love about your posts Rice, is your total humility, and openness to the possiblity that someone else may have a differing opinion, as opposed to just shouting them down.

[PGiljevic]

What I love about your posts Rice, is your total humility, and openness to the possiblity that someone else may have a differing opinion, as opposed to just shouting them down.

I\'m as open as Paris Hilton\'s anal cavity, and as humble as Charlie Sheen. :Ladys-man

What is important is the legitimate testing data, not the text used to foster relationships or garner support from people I don\'t even know :Hammer

Like all things in life, if you can prove it then do so :Talking1 is cheap, I\'d love to see someone go to 1/100th of the effort I go to and would be gagging with excitement if anyone could prove me wrong. :mmmm It\'s easy to do, just post up some legitimate testing information that can be replicated by anyone else in the world. We will all be waiting (not with baited breath though), cause some of us will keep on working and leading the way so others can copy and repeat the wisdom and call it their own :Giggle

WINNING :King

[BlitzBoy]

:rollin

BS ! on the wider power band, its actually the OPPOSITE

And BS to your statement haha :Thumbs-up, on my dyno plots from street to half bridge, I picked an extra 500 rpm of powerband going to half bridge, but as I know you hate dynos, I also picked up an extra 5 mph on my terminal speed on the quarter. But also you like rolling times as well, 60mph to 120mph in 6.5 seconds from 7.5

yes correct on bridge porting eating more fuel and being louder and not for everyone for the street. No one is disputing that point, but on the power point, bigger better shape ports let more air in, more air more fuel equals more power

[Grant Monkhouse]

I just wrote amhuge reply with lots of questions and the damn site loggedme out!

In short I agree with blitz, more in surely equals more out?

I will try post my larger reply again later but iv got a garage to paint first.

[Bulla]

Love this thread :Thumbsup!

[Prof]

At the end of the day more air and more fuel gets more power.
 
If you\'re doing it on stock ports by using more boost and WI to keep the bogey man at bay fine.
 
If you\'re porting and using the lower boost of a lazier running larger turbo, that\'s also fine.
 
Imagine doing both - you would surely make MORE power. So the comment you make about porting being gay yada yada is not a like for like comparison.
 
To do a proper test - setup 2 engines with identical setups except porting, with IDENTICAL TURBOS, WI and BOOST levels and see which one has the power where.
 
I suspect the unported engine would score lower down the rev range, but ultimately the bigger breathing ported engine would take the wee wee later on....
 
If this wasn\'t the case why the hell did Mazda go with PP on their LeMans car - or are you calling the engine designer (and I suspect the most experienced of all and having access to shed loads more stuff to measure engines with than any of us could lay claim to) gay ?
 
Since I don\'t have the where with all to make this test, perhaps you can ?

[Grant Monkhouse]

Cheers prof you just saved me a lot of typing!!

Like for like can only be a true comparison. There\'s no point comparing Anne fine that can rev to 10,000 rpm and one that only goes to 8,000 rpm even with the same turbo.  

To prove the power if ports and turbo the only solution is to get 4 cars, standard port, street port, BP and PP. all with the same fuel capabilities and turbo etc. However I believe that the turbo choice would be a critical factor as getting a turbo that works well on all these applications would be impossibleto gain the best from the engine.

I Would personally assume that anything smaller than a GT 42 on a PP would be too small?

And putting one of these on the standard ported engine would be stupid, yes you could change the AR but the the turbos aren\'t identical are they?

Whether your looking at a street car or drag car, the setup you choose has to match your application.

Standard and street port for the street. BP for the street track/strip and PP for everything as PP\'s sound the best in my eyes and if it sounds the best then they must be the best? Lol

[PGiljevic]

If you boys take the time to look at the info I supplied you :Thumbs-up you will see that on the same rpm, boost, gearing a stock ported motor makes a ton load more power @ 5700rpm

:3gears-lh

I put down the challenge to ANYONE to show me a bridge or PP that makes more power than a stock std ported 13B-REW

Average power on a stock part is far superior than a bridge port or a peripheral port, boost schmoost ! it makes no difference to how much is utilized in the chamber net air flow does not equal net horsepower, especially if a fair portion of it is going out the exhaust :Hammer

And again I also say you put any kind of an exhaust system behind a ported engine and you watch even its net air flow suck the big sausage :2Confused

I ran Peripheral Ports for over 7 years in a road car, I know a thing or two about them, also have run bridge, full bridge, J Bridge, and semi peripheral ports as well :King

Show me how your BP or PP turbo can accelerate a car then we can compare penis size :Ladys-man