Libya

[jetpilot]

Seems revolution is becoming a trend. I must say i cant blame them over there, i understand its a terrible situation, tragic even. I do hope though we dont get overly involved though as i would imagine it would be another war we just cant win!

[Nik da Greek]

I thought it was proof that Cameron either blindly believes his own hype and like Blair that he\'s on some divinely-appointed Higher Calling or that he\'s a championship comedian.....or simply doesn\'t understand the concept of irony. What am I on about? Simply his quote two days ago that Britain couldn\'t rule out armed involvement and that Gaddafi "had to go because he has clearly lost the consent of his people to govern them" :confused:

What.....The.....F !? Surely the same could be said of Cameron himself and his old boy\'s priviledged elite unelected jollies network? Maybe Libya should be entitled to invade the UK by the same argument, since we are in fact currently governed by what amounts to an unelected dictatorship with little or no mandate from the populace. The arrogance of the **** sickens me, not to mention his ignorant inability to learn from history. Doesn\'t even have to be ancient history, Bliar the Antichrist provided plenty of recent examples of exactly why Britain should stay the fduk out of other country\'s business. In fact, British armed forces are still fighting an dying because of the last ill-concieved bout of meddling in something that\'s naff-all to do with us

[jetpilot]

In some twisted argument you could perhaps suggest our involvement in Irag & Afghanistan was because they posed a threat to us, not that i necessarily agree however!

After watching Ross Kemps latest offering last night it kind of goes to show what, say the UN is up against, i am sure what they do is no mean feat, but the "anarchy" still continues. They argued last night if the UN left it would be carnage on a higher level. So could argue is their presence "justified" as the revolutionaries still exist.

I find these situations fascinating, do we have a moral obligation to get involved as a civilized country or should we just leave them to it whilst the lives of millions of innocent people living there are affected. Some of the stories last night were just horrific.

Mr Greek on a side note, did you enjoy the cheeky fat chappy on TG last night!

[lee mills]

Lets be honest the only reason the west is even contemplating sending soldiers is down to one thing and one thing only THE OIL

[FDAsh]

since we are in fact currently governed by what amounts to an unelected dictatorship with little or no mandate from the populace.

Disagree with you here Nik, I think the election of a coalition government and the ousting of Labour was an accurate representation of the ill feelings towards any one party being in power.

I\'ve seen more common sense from Cameron and co. since their election than in all the years under Blair with his frivolous policies and spending.

[Nik da Greek]

I think all politicians in our crumbling governmental system are simply career self-servers who don\'t give a flying 4x about any policy, principles or the betterement of any portion of society that doesn\'t directly strengthen their grip on power. If their consolidation of power towards their own profit and self-aggrandisement by some fluke benefits the country then they\'re obviously happy to bask in the reflected glory, but please don\'t think that because I detest Cameron it means I think Blair shouldn\'t have been ousted, in fact I think he\'s quite clearly the living rule of why politicans should not be allowed any personal profit from office whatsoever, before or afterwards. He\'s so blatantly spent the last terms of office lining his own nest at the country\'s expense and setting himself up for life in whatever lucrative consultation role he can land, all the while dressing up his motivation as some fundamentalist religious insanity or even more simplistically because "it is right".

If you state the same mantra often enough with enough conviction, gullible people will believe it, and just because Cameron went to a nicer school and has nicer hair doesn\'t make his constant assertion that "it is right" any less implausible or unsubstatiated. The middle east crises have at least given him the opportunity for some nice holidays combined with some leisurely gun running to fascistic dictatorships all the while claiming the moral high ground. Yes, very good sense no doubt

The UN is literally as much use as a chocolate fireguard, they simply exist as the kid in the playground who says "come on guys, break it up" then stands on the sidelines wringing his hands like a cissy whilst the protagonaists beat s*** out of each other. Tell me what the UN have done to benefit Cyprus in the last 60 years, then tell me how much use they are to anyone

Mr Pilot, I haven\'t seen it yet

[HypoThermia]

Uh... I think we just hit Poe\'s Law. It won\'t be long before Godwin turns up...

Ian.

[Nik da Greek]

Please note I specifically avoided mentioning Hitler because there\'s always some smart arse who has nothing to offer the debate in question but just lives to post sanctimonious links to Wikipedia at every available opportunity :p.......

Oh, Ian, hi, didn\'t see you lurking in the shadows there. Anything to bring to the discussion lol? Here, have some smilies just to prove how godamned ironic and self-mocking we all are :Thumbs-up :rollin

[Brett]

Nik used the H word - Godwins law is invoked...

Thread locked in 5...4...3...2...

[Brett]

And for the record.... do you really want the oil situation controlled by the likes of the old Iraqi regime?  Think about it.... prices are bad enough as they are... if it really kicks off thats pretty much it for cars as a hobby...

[lee mills]

And for the record.... do you really want the oil situation controlled by the likes of the old Iraqi regime? Think about it.... prices are bad enough as they are... if it really kicks off thats pretty much it for cars as a hobby...

Not really but being as its not our country dont you think just for once maybe we should concentrate on getting our own house in order before wasting more lives and money on a conflict that you will never be thanked for.:rolleyes:

[Brett]

True... but when your \'house\' is more or less reliant on the status quo of the rest of the world what do you do?

Ideally everyone should have equality... but at what cost?

[Will66]

42 years of Dictatorship where the leader has sanctioned terrorist acts that have directly affected this country and an coalition of elected officials with an internationally recognised mandate to govern within the confines of our democratic principals are not even on the same page it terms of comparability.  Despite the fact that the aforementioned coalition has made unpopular decisions that were largely forced upon it by a colossal budget deficit left by the cack handed operations of the previous government.

Regardless of this, we\'re about to feel the bite of the Strategic Defence and Security Review.  The Ship that has been evacuating Brits from Lebanon is being decommissioned as part of the defence cuts when she gets back and we\'ve not got a Frigate/Destroyer sized ship on station in the Falklands for the first time in 29 years, one is within the required distance to satisfy what is required but it illustrates the fact that we\'re unable to meet emergent tasking with the fleet the size that it is.  The RAF/RN have lost the Harrier, which provided the UK contribution to close air support in Afghanistan until the Tornado took over, the RAF are loosing Tornados as well so that\'s going to be stretched further.  The Army are going to have big logistical problems with bringing back all the units that are based out in Germany, they\'ll struggle to find them homes and the like.

We are in a global economic slump and we are a nation that relies on international trade for prosperity.  90% of that trade travels by sea, major sea lanes pass close to some seriously unsavoury parts of the world.  Anything heading East of Italy in the Med gets within 60 miles of Libyan coastline.  Unless you want to spend an extra million or so and risk your cargo with some of the roughest seafaring conditions in the world, if you want to head get to anywhere from the Middle East to Japan you have to go through the Suez Canal and the Gulf supplies masses of oil to the world economies.  As a nation that has a vested interest in world trade we need to take an interest in these places not just through parking a gunboat in there but encouraging democracy and getting these people involved with the international community in a positive way.

[Nik da Greek]

Interesting and valid points there from someone who clearly understands the logstcis involved. What\'s probably most upsetting however is that like Will says in his opening sentence, this regime has been in power for 42 years. Why then is it suddenly so essential that the freedom of the Libyan people becomes the US and UKs number one priority? The argument may as well read "we need stability at any cost in the Middle East and North Africa, even if that means tacitly supporting an unelected and vicious dictator simply because he gaurantees predictability". The notion tha Cameron or any other career politician gives a flying fduk for how many Libyans die in the struggle, are executed for their uprising or suffer in any other way is particularly noxious given this country\'s stance of utter indifference to their plight for the last four decades.

It\'s about the oil and the transport links, and to dress it up as anything else is distasteful to anyone who can see beyond the very thin veneer of human rights concern worn by Cameron like a very ill-fittting mask. What he\'d like best s for Gaddafi to have stayed in power indefinitelty, because that way he could continue claiming the moral high ground by holding sanctions against Libya (which of course only make the average citizen suffer whilst the government recline in their bejewelled palaces) whilst brokering oil deals with the junta.

As for all the "Brits" moaning about hos they\'ve been betrayed by not being whisked away out of Libya as soon as trouble started, well what the hell were you doing there in the first place? Taking blood money from a red-handed dictator because he has no choice but to pay better than anyone  else. They knew exactly what they were doing by going there, let them fund their own extraction using the thousands of dollars of Libyan blood they have on their hands

[BlitzBoy]

On a purely miltitary point Britain can not get involved even if they wanted to, all the miltary resources are in Afghanistan, they might be able to fly some token Eurofighters to Italy and fly missions from there is about all this country can do.

My point of view is let the people of Libya fight it out, its clear there is still a couple million libyans backing Gaddaffi otherwise he would have gone days ago, so let the people of libya fight it out. I think there should be a no fly zone to level out the battlefield. I agree with Nick most nationals from other countries working out there were to earn mostly tax free money, so they know the risk.