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[Glenn Butcher]

Hi all,

Roundaboutnow (Pink Pather 20B) prompted me to get off my bum and get someone to have a look at his data files from rotorstock.com.  He wanted to find out if the map in his car caused the engines expiry.  I had help from a number of very highly regarded MoTeC guru\'s here in Oz.  I\'ll leave it up to Dave, for him tell you about what their thoughts were with the map that was in his M800 ECU.

As a part of doing this, I found that there is some wonderful information available from the MoTeC software download site - you can download for free!  There are even some demo\'s and sample files.

Go to this site here: http://software.motec.com.au/release/

Download:

* M400 / M600 / M800 ECU software
* Interpreter software
* ADL Dash Manager software
* Telemetry software - this is fascinating to view (the demo).

As for the hints and tips on tuning etc. you can press the F1 key for help (in the ECU Manager) and a whole stack of information becomes available.

It REALLY is worth doing, even if you never purchase a MoTeC product - however you will soon see how good it is.

[20B_boy]

Did the people that had the car on the rollers actually tune the car?

[Roundabout-Now]

Yep, they did tune the car. You can even check using the Motec software, as there is a really handy compare feature which will highlight what\'s been changed and what the change was. Very cool. The software is great fun to toy around with, but I wouldn\'t want to be the one that alters it while it\'s connected to the car

Glenns helped a lot by getting the map checked out (thanks again), but I think that the engine was already on its way out. There were a couple of telltale signs (i think so, but I\'m not the expert), but I had been assured it was ok. At one point I was going to pop down to the local mazda garage to get a compression test, as I still felt that something was wrong despite assurances, but I believed what I was told and didn\'t bother. Think the local mechanics would have shat themselves when I turned up in the Pink P :rollin

If you want then I can send you the before and after maps and you can have a play with the motec software (available free from their site as Glenn said).

[20B_boy]

Yeah, I\'d be really interested matey. I think you sent Geff your original map? there looked to be some scary bits to it then! be interested to compare to see what they changed...

Who assured you of the motor being ok?

[antnicuk]

One thing i did notice as the pink panther went down the track was the missfires towards the end of the gears, not sure what revs you would be doing but it didnt sound that high.  Not sure if its tuning or something to do with your ignition system.  Mine used to do but clean plugs sorted it with the help of an ignition booster.

regards
tony
ps,
do you have to pre mix the oil/petrol with a motec or will it run the oil injection? Have a supercharged 20b in an FD, was going to go with the micro tec.

[Roundabout-Now]

Rich - drop me a PM with your email address and I\'ll send you the 2 files. I was assured about the engine by a couple of reputable people, although I think it was just to placate me and stop me worrying, rather than any actual tests being carried out.

antnicuk - I think a lot of the misfires were due to me holding gears a tiny bit too long and hitting the rev limit, especially in 1st and second. Rev limit was set at 7200rpm.  I did have a problem a while ago with misfires on hot plugs, but was running the colder ones at Rotorstock, so pretty sure it was just the limiter (right up until the last run when it did it at 5000rpm cos the engine had just gone).

I\'m running premix, but I seem to remember reading that the new motec software will run the oil injection. Email motec just to check, but why run the oil injection? If you drop it then its one less thing to go wrong, and think of the huge weight saving  

[20B_boy]

Cheers matey, you have PM...

MoTeC were promising OMP support for ages (years?), dunno whether the latest windows s/ware does the job or not tbh. But frankly pre mixing is my preference any way, personal preference eh. I\'d be surprised if it cant in fairness - its frightening what it can/is mean to be able to do. Just wish u could make it work in PSI or bar - those other things are way too much for me to comprehend!

[Glenn Butcher]

Hi all,

Sorry - I was away for the weekend.

Rich, it is actually pretty straight forward - just work in kPa (Kilopascals).  And you need to add the 14.5 for atmospheric pressure.  In the ECU Manager, just look in help for kPa and it will explain it all for you.

I hope Dave won\'t mind, but the guys who checked the map for me said that the ignition would have been ok (apart from the split between leading and trailing) if it was running on METHANOL!

Quote here on the help:

MAP Sensor

The MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor measures Absolute Pressure (ie. pressure relative to a vacuum).
0 kPa Absolute = Complete Vacuum
100 kPa = 1 Bar  = 14.5 PSI
Atmospheric Pressure at sea level is approximately 100 to 102 kPa, depending on the day.
MAP sensors normally produce a voltage between 0 and 5V, depending on the pressure.
The pressure sensor may be used to measure the inlet manifold pressure or to measure the barometric pressure depending on the Load Sensing arrangement detailed earlier.

The ECU Sensor Setup parameters must be set to indicate the type and pressure range of the sensor.
Avoid severe vibration of the sensor as this can cause fluctuations in the  reading. Do not mount rigidly to the engine. Normally the pressure sensor is mounted to the vehicle body.

[20B_boy]

I seem to recall it had 15 degrees advance still at 2 bar?

[Roundabout-Now]

Glenn, I don\'t mind any info being shared about my car. If it helps anyone else in any way then that\'s good for rotaries in general.

When I said that I thought the engine was already on the way out, I didn\'t mean that the map was right. I just compared the setup when I bought it with the setup after it was tuned, and the ignition split hasn\'t been changed and the ignition timing doesn\'t seem to have been altered much (not at higher revs anyway). I\'ll look over the 2 files again later to check again in case I missed something there. The engine might have been on its way out because the ignition has always been wrong I suppose. Or it could just be that my run at Cadwell was the first serious hard use it had ever had, which highlighted the ignition problem and started the engine probs.

BTW, I understand how AFR is set (kind of), but how do you decide the right igniton advance and split? Is it just knowing how it works, or does it require checking for detenation while on a rolling road or road testing?

[Glenn Butcher]

Hi Dave,

Great stuff, if that is the case we\'ll make this thread a really informative one.  I\'ll upload your ECU files - for people to download if that is ok?

Let me know.

I\'ve been wanting to do something like this for a while - I\'ll add in screen dumps and all sorts.

This will be REALLY helpfull stuff for everyone in the rotary world.

[Glenn Butcher]

BTW...this is probably the best thread I have found on timing, but just keep in mind that figures quoted are mainly for 13B\'s not 20B\'s where peak torque is at much lower rpm\'s.

http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=101226


Another thing that both the guys (here in Oz) who I have spoken to at length about Dave\'s car is that turbo itself would not have helped the situation.  i.e. it is too small, making the engine hotter (contributing to possible detonation etc. etc.) to make reasonable power.  Where if a large turbo was installed you should be able to make double the power the car was making with a lot less stress - i.e. run it at 1 bar of boost and make 500-600rwhp.

[Roundabout-Now]

Please upload the files. I would have already done it myself already if I could have (no webspace ). I\'ll call Tim at Tuning Japanese tomorrow and try and get the other log file from Shakespeare County.

One note for anyone who uses the log file - for some reason the virtual dash feature on the Motec Interpreter reports the wrong rpm on the log file. Not sure why, as the correct rpms are logged in the file and on the graphs. Or to put it another way, no, my engine doesn\'t do 20,000rpm as the virtual dash reports

The turbo being too small does seem to be the general consensus. If I can stretch to it then I will get a bigger turbo while the engine is out. If not then I may have to look at water injection to help for now and change the turbo over winter. One other comment on the car by various techie people at Rotorstock was that some of the fuel lines appear small and the fuel reg isn\'t great, so they are more bits to do.

On another note, I got a call off Tim at japvillage (aka the guy who sold me the Pink Panther not to be confused with Tim at Tuning Jap mentioned before) the other day. He seemed suprised that I\'d only quoted 450bhp (est.) in the Japanese Perfomance article. As it turned out it was running 528 fwhp (or 404 rwhp) at Shakespeare County. Tim reckons it was much higher when they had it on the rollers (using the same turbo). If the engine was already loosing compression, would this give a huge drop in bhp? Tim claimed that they saw 600rwhp (seems high)? Is this more drop than would be expected from an engine on its way out?

[BlitzBoy]

Yeah as you lose compression, the more power u lose over time, u will get a hige drop in power, but hey im no expert, u need some one like Carl to give his views.
Just as a reference, Petit Racing in America when they do the Triple Rotor Transplant on stock twin turbos they get something like 500 bhp at the Fly

[20B_boy]

Originally posted by BlitzBoy
Yeah as you lose compression, the more power u lose over time, u will get a hige drop in power, but hey im no expert, u need some one like Carl to give his views.

Probably not 200 ponies tho Seriously, I (still) find it hard to believe a 20B would make 600atws on a T04R - its just not big enough?!

Just as a reference, Petit Racing in America when they do the Triple Rotor Transplant on stock twin turbos they get something like 500 bhp at the Fly [/B]

Yeah, they make about 450-500fly wheel, but what thats measured on is an interesting question; Dynojet would probably knock a slice off that from what u read.

Turbos arent really stock either; they are Cosmo twins but are rebuilt and mod\'d by petit before installation - fairly extensively I think.