Engine Fires!

[ro284]

Sympathy to those guys that have lost thier pride and joy to an engine fire, Sorry to hear of another one today, The only thing to hope for after something like that is the Insurance companies pay out as they should! i can\'t imagine anything more frightening for an FD owner, than to have the engine go up in flames, So what is the cause? iv\'e read about the FD Pulsation damper Eliminator, is that a common weak point? how often should it be replaced? i gather that on one FD at least this was thought to have caused an explosion! and fire, or is there anything else likely to cause this, apart from obvious perished/damaged hoses? Should we fit new braided? I have been thinking about a hidden security switch to isolate the fuel pump,to stop the car being pinched,  which if the worst happened the pump could be switched off leaving the engine to gobble up any dregs in the fuel line before it stops, in the hope that there is no more fuel for the fire! it seems once the fire has started it is very difficult to put out, i think on some makes of cars if a fuel line cracks and pressure in the line drops the pump is switched off as a safety feature,But i\'m not sure if this happens on an FD, i have put out a couple of fires in boingers,easily,  but an FD is obviously more difficult, Any suggestions from our resident experts, where and what else to check regularly? avoiding the risk in the first place, theres not much room for a big extinguisher in an FD
cheers Bob

[banned advertiser]

Other 2 places to check are oil lines to turbo and brake fluid on to turbo.

[yogibear]

Hi Guys

Will definatly be fitting some kind of plumbed in system in my next car. I cant see it being that hard to do. I replaced all of the hoses in the rats nest on mine a month ago and in hindsite wish id done the fuel lines at the same time it would have made sence. Cant say how much I wish id invested in a plumbed in system before id had a problem. Its the old story of spending money on go faster and flashy bits first and safety stuff last. :-(

Niall

[rextreme]

Battery box should also be tight.
My friend had a small fire from the battery clamp rubbing on the terminal from a dodgy install at a workshop. He is still waiting for it to be rectified after 6 months.
now misfires after 2nd turbo comes on. Workshop has replaced the wiring loom and all.
He is getting mad.

[ro284]

Gary.Other 2 places to check are oil lines to turbo and brake fluid on to turbo.

Thanks Gary, I\'d never even thought of that side! but obvious when it\'s pionted out! not just petrol leaks to worry about!

Niall, Will definatly be fitting some kind of plumbed in system in my next car. I cant see it being that hard to do. I replaced all of the hoses in the rats nest on mine a month ago and in hindsite wish id done the fuel lines at the same time it would have made sence. Cant say how much I wish id invested in a plumbed in system before id had a problem. Its the old story of spending money on go faster and flashy bits first and safety stuff last. :-(
Niall

So sorry for your misfortune Niall, and you are right of course, iv\'e also spent a lot of time and money on rear spats. etc! (for example) that should have been invested in safety, and far more important things!
Rextreme, Sorry for your friends problems, makes you realize that it is also too easy to rely on workshops that may not be as thorough as they should be, even with the wiring, also there has been a bit of discussion about undersize alarm wiring causing running problems (on another thread resulting in a engine distroying misfire/running lean! Rextreme.could this be something to do with your friends second turbo problem!i-e alarm wiring?) some after-market wiring is too small for the job, not having the capacity to carry the load can also cause heat, where there should not be heat!
For sure i am going to fit braided fuel lines, and check the things Gary pointed out, and rewire the undersize alarm wires, but i\'m still a bit concerned about what else there is to fail under UIM, i think that is where the Pulsation Damper is, The next question is, should that be a job for a Rotary specialist? or DIY? should we regard the PD as a consumable to be changed after a certain mileage or age? i always run 99 ron, the only time i get a hint of a fuel smell is when i use optimax, no idea why that is! hope it\'s from the exhaust, but what with heatsoak from a rotary, it\'s so hot under the hood, even the slightest leak could be bad news!
Cheers Bob

[banned advertiser]

While checking wires, I had a problem where the fuses boxes were not bolted back to the wing in the engine bay, and were flopping around arcing on body work. Also check fuel filters and pipes to and from, again most are 12 years old. The Pulsation Damper is not in the hand book for replacement at any given milage or age, but like so many things on old cars, common sence prevails.

Foam is very messy, power is good, have used and was quite effective, and cleans off better. The new gas one are good, a gas covers the flame, starves it of air, but the gas wraps round and does not immediately disapate so helps stop reignition.

[M@r]{]

I feel a group buy coming on for decent fire extinguishers!!

[iaint]

The two recent ones on the forum were at different ends of the cars though. BlitzBoys was from leaks on a recent fuel pump upgrade (swirl pot IIRC).  No clue what Yogis was from, might never know for sure though because of the damage.

After my recent upgrades I had a fuel leak caused (primarily_ by the failure of a 14 year old piece of hose (between the two injector rails).  I was lucky - the jet of fuel only sprayed on a hot bit of the engine that wasn\'t hot enough to ignite the fuel - just lots of smoke!!!  

With the benefit of hindsight and for any future fuel system work I\'d ensist on all old flexible lines being replaced, probably with braided lines.  I\'d also insist the person doing the work give the car a full test to ensure nothing\'s been missed - I\'d pay for their time of course.

Just too much risk of losing your P&J - in car extinguishers seem pretty useless for a fuel fire and only useful for a small oil or electrical one.

[RobbieRX-7]

I was watching fifth gear the other night, and they made a little video of the bmw chasing the old supra, and the supra slamming into the back of the artic lorry. They did a little test and spilled neat fuel onto a red hot manifold and it didn\'t ignite. I reckon a lot of fires are prob caused by oil leaks on the engine/turbo\'s, especially hot rotary motors. I always carry 2 fire extinguishers after reading a story in the usa where someoone with a nice fd had a little fire, but his fire extinguisher failed to work. All he could do is watch it burn and i can just see that being my luck so i always carry 2 now. Also the powder extinguishers must be scrapped once used even for a little bit because they loose pressure and are useless afterwards.

[antnicuk]

I had a fuel hose pop off the end of my fuel rail at WOT on the motorway, it must have been pumping high pressure fuel via the 044 for about 30 seconds right next to the turbo which was still glowing red when i opened the bonnet.

I thank my lucky stars that it didnt go up but i think as mentioned above, its not just fuel that does it.  If it just floods with fuel it wont neccessarily ignite.  A small jet from a split hose or similar is probably more likely to ignite.

Manufacturers dont use braided hose and only use spring type hose clips.  If the rubber is new it will last some time.  My problem was a new hose blowing off the metal pipe.  The jubilee clip was quite tight but i need someway of securing it.

[iaint]

I had a fuel hose pop off the end of my fuel rail at WOT on the motorway, it must have been pumping high pressure fuel via the 044 for about 30 seconds right next to the turbo which was still glowing red when i opened the bonnet.

I thank my lucky stars that it didnt go up but i think as mentioned above, its not just fuel that does it.  If it just floods with fuel it wont neccessarily ignite.  A small jet from a split hose or similar is probably more likely to ignite.

Manufacturers dont use braided hose and only use spring type hose clips.  If the rubber is new it will last some time.  My problem was a new hose blowing off the metal pipe.  The jubilee clip was quite tight but i need someway of securing it.

Scary stuff.  My leak was similar, lots of smoke, no flame!

Race cars generally use braided hoses though - aeroquip type fitting wouldn\'t pop off.  Obviously it\'s something to think about as most of with a few mods are running higher fuel pressures.  Useful for the oil lines too and add a nice touch of functional bling to the proceedings

[Iain C]

Are you safer if your car stays atandard?
I guess on a 14 year old car things will fail no matter how good the car it?

[leggysrx7]

Would braided fuel lines reduce the chance of fire?? If so is there a specific kit for the fd? Having seen the damage a fire causes it might be worth making that our first modification!

[d6277n]

Hi guys,

Sorry to hear about another fire :2eek

Just a couple of quick bits and pieces:

Another thing to watch out for is brake fluid. It often has an autoignition temperature low enough to ignite on contact with hot engine components. Not sure about some of the other fluids (power steering fluid etc.). Petrol is a bit variable depending on what it hits and how much there is. A spark is very likely to set it off, whereas a hot surface may not.

In terms of extinguishers you have the following:

Water (red) - Don\'t put it on a fuel fire. End of story... At best it won\'t help, at worst it will make things a lot more interesting.

Foam (cream) - Works by excluding oxygen. Difficult to get all over an engine bay without raising the bonnet (not recommended as you\'re likely to get a face full of flames). Persistant, will put out a pool fire and can be ok to clean up. I would imagine if it gets burnt on that it may not be so easy to get off. Foam is water based and reasonably conducting so don\'t squirt it on anything high voltage.

Powder (blue) - very effective, works by displacing oxygen. Extinguishers don\'t last long once you\'ve pressed the handle, and can take a couple of seconds to start discharging (don\'t look down the end if it doesn\'t come out immediately!). A quick shake prior to use can help to speed things up. Will get into an engine bay through the grill, can be moderately persistant but gets *everywhere*. Can do serious damage to e.g. turbos if ingested and is a right b@stard to clean up. Also you won\'t be able to see much in the vicinity of the discharge after a second or two as it is very good at obscuring vision. The standard choice for a small portable extinguisher, and to be fair if it isn\'t enough then you\'re probably stuffed until the FB arrive.

CO2 (black) - Can be effective depending on the fire. Works by displacing oxygen. Non-persistant, so a fire with sufficient heat and fuel may re-ignite once it\'s dispersed. Small extinguishers don\'t last long, will get *very* cold during use (enough to burn the skin off you if you touch it) and are surprisingly noisy.

Halon/BCF (green) - best extinguishing agent, now no longer available outside certain critical applications due to ozone depletion (it was *really* bad for that). Works by excluding oxygen and chemically interfering with the combustion process (quenches the free radicals present during combustion). Incredibly effective at killing many fires stone dead. Not very persistant, harmful in confined spaces and could produce rather toxic byproducts.

Note that due to a daft EU directive, the UK full-body colour shown above in brackets has now gone. All new extinguishers have to be red with the appropriate colour label. Bloody confusing if you\'re under stress or in a smoky environment. Also, if you have an extinguishing system then make sure you check it regularly. Had a nasty near miss when I found the big powder one in my lab had leaked all the gas out over a few months. Fortunately we weren\'t on fire at the time

One final point - not sure if this applies to rexes, but many cars use fluorinated gaskets and seals on windows and other components. In a fire situation these can degrade to hydrofluoric acid (HF) and other nasties. HF will cause horrid burns that can require aggressive treatment if you are to avoid any complications (putting it under the tap helps but it isn\'t enough). If you handle a burnt car, be extremely careful when touching it, particularly any residues from window seals etc. There was a segment on Top Gear years ago talking about young kids playing in burnt out cars. A couple of them had lost fingers etc to HF burns. I spent three happy years during my PhD playing with HF and related things and they are genuinely nasty (my research certainly had it\'s moments... :Grrr :Hammer :Nono!  ).

NB. To cover my ass, the above is not to be relied upon in case of a fire etc. If you need to deal with this stuff, check the facts first :2Rolleyes

Sorry for the long post,

hope this helps,

Chris.

[ro284]

Brilliant post Chris very informative, many thanks,
Bob