Price 4 respray...

[Grizzly]

Ok let me put it this way, remembering once its laqured (by some one else!!) you can\'t go back to fix any faults, would i as a rep for a Paint manufacture say the prep, the most important part of the job!! should be undertaken by some one who has never painted a car before??? MMMM

You may find you can prep a car to an OK level, but do you think you could prep a car better than me? (a time served Painter who has pritty much done most things to do with the Paint side in there 20 years experiance)

Also when your polishing a car, i\'d recomend Nibbing it with 1200\'s then DA with a 2000 Abalon (spelling) pad then G3 with a Buffer then Machine glaze with a Black mop head then wax...

If you flat with 2000\'s or 3000\'s you\'ll be there all day, and in the Paint world if you have a defect, Say a run i\'d flat with 800\'s to knock the top off then 12000\'s and so forth, i have to admit though its easyer to just not get any Nibs or Runs then buff it

BTW have you had problems with Churchill Primers? when i was on the shop floor the boss at the time would insist on using cheap Primers that you\'d flat and paint then a week later would sink and leave rings round your repaires. I\'ve used Spray bog a few times which is ok as it does\'nt sink realy but is big style porus so you still need to go over it with some proper primer.

[Grizzly]

The thing is if you prep it i don\'t know many Shops that will give you a Garantee on the work?? becouse in effect you have done it?? Remember Prep is 70% of the job if its poor prep its a poor job...

[richard cash]

i understand what your saying but what ive been used to and been told contrdicts some things youve said, lol.

Im not sure on this guys level of competance prepping a car but if your asking me if i can prep a car better than you then i dont know but i really dont think theres that much to it. Prep is 90% of the time but if your willing to stick at it then its not like a complex science. IMO after you know what your doing all experience will give you is time saving, i mean ive been doing this stuff for about 5 years and i dont think theres much more i can learn about what sort of level a car needs to be prepped to. But your 20years of experience will give you the edge when it comes to time saving as youve experimented with different techniques etc. So maybe your quicker but i would say the finish would be the same. I really think that guy should prep it himself, see what he can do with the guidance of people on here, and if he ****s it up (cant see how he could) then let the bodyshop take it from there.


As for flatting, well i used to be very crap wit hlacquer and never got a shine so there was a very steep learning curve with cutting back and polishing for me. With runs id start with a 1200 on a DA; no run is big enough not to be removed with this grit paper on a machine. after loads of practise though i am much better with lacquer but if i know im cutting the car back, like say for a show car or my own RX7 then i would put the lacquer on dryer than normal. There is slightly less shine but the lacquer has less peel and flatting with 1500 or 2000 only is fine. I actually flatted my whole car back recently and it came out great, all i did was use 2000 and 1500 for denibbing. The whole process including G3 and polish was about 8hrs.

I havent had a problem with churchills stuff so far. When i apply primer i tend to thin it down as much as i can, around 30%. This makes the material go further but is obvliously less build. That said, if the prep work is up to scratch then you shouldnt have to cake the stuff on.

[richard cash]

also, grizzly, how does water based paints differ from the normal 2k stuff in application. Is it very similar or a completly new art??

[Grizzly]

Well the main things you\'ll find with water is that it covers really well!! light metallic don\'t really go patchy in the same way as Solvent, the metallic tends to be cleaner and brighter, it does\'nt lift the edge of any primer you brake through, for exapmle if you had a scratch on your wing, you\'d Flat it out Grey scotch it then prime the area flat it then Base it up. With water you can flat the Scratch out, scotch the wing then paint it (as long as its not down to metal). Basically because there is no Solvent it won\'t attack Solvent based products (like primer or old top coat) so it can reduce your Repair times if you know how to use it. Also something that\'s cool about water, you don\'t get static pick up (lines in the Base coat after Clearing where the panel has been statically charged by you tacking it off, then what happens the Base coat dust in the air is attracted to the Charged parts of the panel making crazy shapes)

But the big down side is has to be 100% dry before Clearing (obvious really Solvent clear and water base, you\'d trap Moisture under the Clear) and its quite allot harder to work if you have a problem (you can\'t really nib the base coat as it leaves scratches if you use anything heavier than 1500\'s and it tends to act like trying to flat solf paint, quite rubbery)

The hole water thing was a shock to the system for me in the earlier days, where with solvent you\'d build it up with say three or four nice coats with water you put a duster over the panel blow it dry then give it one good wet coat and whilst still put a drop coat over it to get rid of any patches and make the met stand out, Job done... You\'d then turn the heat up on the booth and blow it dry.

But if i was to do a wing in my garage at home i would not even dream about using Solvent, it is not nice to use and i think the extra Solvent in the Base will kill the shine off. Its a mith with 2k products like Primer or laquer if you put more Thinners in it will lie flatter and you\'ll get a better finish, all you\'ll do it over load the product with Thinner and the 2k will skin over traping solvent causing your finished job to loose its shine or solvent pop, How i would high build a car, first i\'d only put about 5% max of thinner in my High build then i\'d put one medium coat on and let it flash, then a heavy coat over that. No more. I\'d let it go rock hard, if i was not happy with the repair or shap i saw when the primer was still wet i\'d block it down with 240\'s and reprime, that way i\'d know that it was dry all the way through the primer and i would not get any sinkage or poping.

[Grizzly]

if you don\'t mind me saying DA\'ing runs out is a little bit dangrous, what you tend to do is remove the same amount of Paint from the surounding area as the run its self, So if your not very carfull you\'ll rub through trying to get rid of the Lump left by the run.

I know many tricks for getting rid of Runs from my early days (), The guy who tought me liked to let the run go hard then get a VERY!! sharp blade and cut the top section of the run off, then Flat and polish (works very well but be carfull not to push the blade in, just run across the surface), I personaly like to use 800\'s on a Block if you rub it very square to the run it will remove the higher points (the run) quicker then the low ones becouse the weight of the block will be resting on a smaller area.

[PETE SMITH]

This is scarey conversation...i\'m leaving it to the pro\'s :eek

[richard cash]

sorry, should have made it clear, I only DA on flat panels where the DA can lie flat but to be honest i dont tend to get runs as i try to put the lacquer on dryer than most people and then get the shine from the cutting back. just prefer to do this then put the lacquer on wet and worry for the 20mins after about getting a run, lol.

This is how i understand the thinners thing. Basically the better the pre-priming prepping is the less primer you need. So if i can get say a dent out perfectly down to 600grit paper then theres no need to put the primer on heavy and i know in the folliwing weeks there will be no sagging. So because of this i thin the paint down as much as i can to help me put a thin coat on. All the thinners is doing is helping me spray a small coat, not making it lie flat. I can get a good finish using 5% thinners, nice and flat that only needs 600-800flatting before basing, but if theres no need for the high build then i will never apply it. Obvliously using such high thinners will cause solvent trap if not left for a longer than normal amount of flashing time, but thats just patience, nothing more.

by the way grizzly, your input into this topic is appreciated by me at least . I love to talking to other sprayers, especially ones with your experience. Im not arogant and do realise i have much to learn, but all my opinions etc have come from experience. I have self taught myself everything, ive never gone to college to learn this stuff, and sometimes its meant ive gone the long way about things, but its more of a hobby for me than anything.

your info on the water based products seems very interesting, but from what i understand of your post, you use a 2K clear still over a waterbase? Is that correct?? Is there such thing as a waterbased clearcoat.

[Grizzly]

your info on the water based products seems very interesting, but from what i understand of your post, you use a 2K clear still over a waterbase? Is that correct?? Is there such thing as a waterbased clearcoat.

Basicly, Water base wa only brought in to bring most bodyshops up to EPA/VOC levels of Solvent used a year.

There is such a thing as Water base Clear but its no way near good enough to use on a customers car, I have only used it once and i supose its like the very early Water Base coat it stays very rubbery for a long time and also it can\'t be flated as it won\'t polish back.

If i do a high £££ Repaint for some one i tend to Metal the car so i start from fresh and use aero Etch (high acid content) i don\'t high build at all but i us Wet on wet with Flex additive in (realy quite a pain to flat) then the water base and i always finish with the Merc stone chip resitant Clear (about a £1000 for 4 liters) with doing al this i can 80% garantee it won\'t stone chip, a high speed stone chip tends o dent the panel before bringing the paint off.

The thing is as you can imagen i used to work in an enviroment where we had to repair that was Goosed in a set time (that was usaly not enough) so 80% of my filler work was finished in 240\'s (which all high builds would cover) but unless the repair was nasty to start with i\'d usaly just use etch to seal the porus filler, but i\'ve also been there were the car your painting has been around the block, Eg. i painted a 1972 TVR about six months ago that had stood in a farmers yard since 1989 and it had to be one of the worsed jobs i can remember doing, the car had been semi rebuilt years ago and the Glass was open to the elements so it had absorbed alot of water, but the worsed thing was it looked like it had been striped with a Grinder. So i\'d guess i filled every panel, then used polyester Spray filler to get it somthing like right then rehigh built it with our 2K Urethane Primer to seal it and stop it absorbing Mostiure. On the big repair jobs its often wise to prime them twice, I like to rub 99% of the first prime off and use a Dark colour primer (usaly Black) so i can wet it and check it for Wobbles, then i\'d tint a Primer thats not to far off the colour the car is going and reprime for max base coat coverage also possable stone chips, it may sound like alot of Priming and flatting but  by doing it this way you can get an idea of what its going to look like painted, you can often get a more quality finish at the end with No sinkage at all foing this way. There are loads of ways to do the same Job but its oftem wise to make sure each stage is applyed correctly and is completly dry before moving on to the next stage.

As you say its all about the Prep, but its also all about the paint your going over too.

[richard cash]

with the polyester spray filler how is this applied and is it a much higher build than high-build primer. Ive not heard of it before.

[Grizzly]

There completely diffrent types of primer, One is made from the same stuff as filler (polyester) so the same rules apply, Its porus so don\'t wet flat, It is very prone to being attacked by Fuel oil etc but its got some good sides, Its very cheap and does\'nt sink if over apply\'d.

As opposed to the More modern Primers that tend to skin over creating a Mosture/Oil/fuel tight seal, it builds just the same as polyester but where as with polyester you can leather it on and not have any problems with the newer product you have two good coats and you leave it or you\'ll end up sealing Solvent in and it\'ll do odd things like sink or Blister off when it gets hot.

Basicly in a nut shell, The newer High builds are high solids so for example if you put two nice coats of our high build on a panel then put three good coats of Polly on a panel and rubbed them both with the same grade paper etc, you\'d go through the Polly first.... Our High build is exactly that.

[Grizzly]

with the polyester spray filler how is this applied and is it a much higher build than high-build primer. Ive not heard of it before.

How is it applyed? i\'d tend to etch your bare metal first (oviously the rest is well rubbed) then i\'d apply two wet coats with a Flash of between (until it goes mat) I\'d also try to keep it to two coats, if i think it needs any more i\'d rub it down first so you don\'t end up with an Excessive film build.

As for Thinners, I would say use as little as poss but i know that Polly tends to be a bit thick if no thinners is added, so i\'d say 5-10% max.

But the main thing i\'d always put somthing over it like wet on wet before painting just as a seal.

[Fish]

Been and had 2 quotes for a full respray with fitting a front bumper and side skirts inc. blending them in, fixing a couple of dents and holes where the wing was, then lastly of all a couple of bubbles which I take as rust bubbles.

1st quote was circa £4k, taking aboug 6 weeks.
2nd quote was cicra £2-2.5k, taking 2 weeks.

Work that out.

Anyone know of a good body shop in the SE London, Kent area.

Fish

[Trevrx]

Well the main things you\'ll find with water is that it covers really well!!

Grizzly, Do you know if it\'s true that all bodyshops will soon only be allowed to use water based?  A friend in the trade (one man band) is worried that it will cost him a fortune as you need a paint booth?

[Grizzly]

Yep....

If you use over a set amount of paint a year you already have to use water. But the government have gone sneeky they know it would be very hard to regulate so they will just stop manufacters selling Solvent Base coat in the UK, so it will push the prices way up to buy it (if you can get hold of it??).

Plus the law is changing so the amount Solvent used a year is being Reduced and large fines being put in place.

Belive me this will send alot of the smaller shops under, The change to water is not a masive one but you do need a booth.

You have to love the VOC/EPA rules. I remember the our Paint rep about five years ago saying that solvent is a thing of the past, In the next few years there will not be any Solid Colours and the Solvent will be drawing to a close, funny thing is it\'s going that way now, i have not been to a body shop whilst i\'ve been doing this job (six months) where they use solvent!! whats more my boss has told me to push the shops to use Base coat on Solid colour jobs (which means the solid colour is being phazed out).

Between you and me its possable to use water base out side a booth, Tell your Mate next time he has a small base coat job in to buy water base to do the job, if he uses Spies Hecker its very easy to use, for example, the paint can be thinned with Deionised water (the cheap way of thinning it) for every 100g of paint add 15g of Water (important not to under or over Thin as it goes funny). Before putting the base in the gun well rins the gun out with water as Thinners and water don\'t mix (oviously you wash the gun out after with Water too then when 99% of the base is off you can put in a solvent gun wash machine), have a Hot air gun handy when your about to apply the base, now put a dust coat on making sure you cover the repair and blow dry with the hot air gun (don\'t get the panel too warm), now apply one good coat over the repair and flick out the edges, whilst thats still very wet lay a drop coat into it until your happy it does\'nt lok patchy then blow dry with the heat gun. The idea of drying with a heat gun is the base coat likes warm moving air to dry, if you let it stand like Solvent base it will take an age to go off and most likly get full off bits and flys etc. now the most important thing is once the base is dry (gone mat) let it stand for a cuple of minutes, what tends to happen if you force dry it is it goes off but stays semi soft so if you leave it a few minutes the panel temp will finish it off and you can tack the edges and laqure. Don\'t tack the Base as you would usaly as it does scratch quite easy and only apply the one heavy coat  becouse if you try to build it up it will over apply and skin over trapping a layer of soft paint under a dry surface that you will have problems with.

The Thing is if you have an idea of how the Water acts you\'d find it easyer to use than Solvent, if you blow it dry with an electric Hot air gun it will spend less time open so you will get less dirt in it. plus if it goes Tits up you can wash it off with a hose pipe but don\'t let it go 100% off before you decide as water is not like solvent once its dry you can\'t get it off with anything (so gloves are good )

If you do decide to have a go and want some advice then PM me.