The reasons synthetic oils are better

[oilman]

this is interesting ive always been told to use mineral oil i use the same stuff they put in the rx8??

I use fully synthetic 5w-30 in my own RX8.

40% less oil consumption and the car feels much smoother!

Cheers
Simon

[oilman]

Seals, seals, seals!

It\'s an old argument and bearing in mind that all synthetics are seal compatible these days just not valid.

Rotary engines are used in unmanned spy drones due to their quietness, and yes synthetics have been extensively tested in Rotaries, Silkolene have been doing it for years from the Norton Rotary engined bikes of yester year to supplying Pro R 0w-20 for the current spy drones.

Synthetic burn more cleanly, tolerate heat better and evaporate less easily that\'s why they last longer.

In my honest opinion, anyone running a modded RX7 would have to be mad to use anything else if they want to protect their engine properly.

It is my opinion that part of the reason for short engine life is oil quality, poor basic oil quality in a car that really requires something better. Sure, in stock form an N/A RX7 may not test a mineral oil if changed frequently but once you add a turbocharger you are talking a whole new ball game. You NEED an oil that will withstand heat better than a mineral oil to prevent carbonisation.

Cheers
Simon

[kev-yorks]

Seals, seals, seals!

It\'s an old argument and bearing in mind that all synthetics are seal compatible these days just not valid.

Rotary engines are used in unmanned spy drones due to their quietness, and yes synthetics have been extensively tested in Rotaries, Silkolene have been doing it for years from the Norton Rotary engined bikes of yester year to supplying Pro R 0w-20 for the current spy drones.

Synthetic burn more cleanly, tolerate heat better and evaporate less easily that\'s why they last longer.

In my honest opinion, anyone running a modded RX7 would have to be mad to use anything else if they want to protect their engine properly.

It is my opinion that part of the reason for short engine life is oil quality, poor basic oil quality in a car that really requires something better. Sure, in stock form an N/A RX7 may not test a mineral oil if changed frequently but once you add a turbocharger you are talking a whole new ball game. You NEED an oil that will withstand heat better than a mineral oil to prevent carbonisation.

Cheers
Simon

Got to say i agree 100% with this hence why i use synthetics but to be honest Simon i don\'t think there\'s much chance of getting many people to change there views. All i would say is that if they had seen a couple of engines stripped down be it petrol diesel piston or rotary side by side one run on mineral and one on synthetic\'s or even semi synthetic\'s then there would be a lot more converts.
Regards Kevin

[oilman]

I\'m not looking for converts, in fact I supply all oils from monogrades to race synthetics, I\'m merely looking to explode a ridiculous myth that seems to have stayed with the rotary since the seals were not compatible some 25 plus years ago.

If the MRC would arrange a suitable venue and enough Members, I would be happy to bring along the man that knows about synthetics and rotaries (the Silkolene Chemist John Rowland) to give a talk on why they are better for your cars.

Cheers
Simon

[kev-yorks]

Simon do you think he would be willing to do a little piece for the rotary rev\'s news letter as i know Clive is always looking for items to include and something like this would be for the benefit of all rotary owners. Might be worth dropping Clive a PM if he would.
Kevin

[Ricco_04]

I think your right about the seeing is believeing.

I do fully believe that certain synthetics will not only be fine but also benefit the engine, but you will also get some people who pay £17 per 5 liters mineral (castrol) or £55 ish for synthetic.

The best thing is to provide the info and let them make their choice, I do certainly enjoy reading this, I don\'t understand it all but im getting there  :driving

[kev-yorks]

I think your right about the seeing is believeing.

I do fully believe that certain synthetics will not only be fine but also benefit the engine, but you will also get some people who pay £17 per 5 liters mineral (castrol) or £55 ish for synthetic.

The best thing is to provide the info and let them make their choice, I do certainly enjoy reading this, I don\'t understand it all but im getting there  :driving

If you look around you can get full synthetics for less than that or go half way house and use a semi synthetic. But don\'t forget when doing the sums you can also safely extend your drain intervals.
Kevin

[clive]

Simon do you think he would be willing to do a little piece for the rotary rev\'s news letter as i know Clive is always looking for items to include and something like this would be for the benefit of all rotary owners. Might be worth dropping Clive a PM if he would.
Kevin

Yes please, and  if this guy is really Rotary knowledgeable could we have recommendations for new and old normally aspirated plus Turbo Rotary\'s and also I would love to know for definite if any present day synthetics can break  "tip to chamber wall"  contact and therefore reduce or destroy compression.

When Mazda were racing in the early nineties they apparently had this happen and whilst they would never publicly admit it this is the reason they printed Nonsynthetic oil only in the 3rd Gen owners manual, they also say Use only oil with API Service SG rating and that extra additives are not recommended.

Yes oils have come a long way but to me the oil argument for Rotary longevity is not a huge issue because we tend to loose more engines through water seal failure on stock engines and tip detonation on the modified ones than we ever do due to oil related problems, however when these engines are stripped carbon is the issue most builders are fighting to clear out.
So the question there is does this come from oil deposits or fuel, and I ask because apparently Shell Optimax does help combat the carbon problem.

Even though my company sells not cheap 76 Racing mineral oil I still send people to Asda to buy Texaco or Castrol at a fiver a gallon if they only have a stock car .

BTW as for the friction side of things and the way oil adheres to metal surfaces, I witnessed this myself many years ago.
I was asked to look at an old transit that was driven home with the oil light on and had a bad rumble!, I was straight away told by the owner who had no money for a new engine that he had always put Slick 50 in the engine and sure enough even though there was NO oil in the sump I literally pealed the badly worn big end and main bearings off the crankshaft and finding that there was still a good film of Slick50 then fitted new bearings  without removing the crank and the owner then used the Transit for the next couple of years.

I understand fully that less friction equals more power, more economy and a lot less wear but as I say, the one question I really want answered is does synthetic interfere with "tip to chamber wall" contact, by someone who knows Rotary\'s fully i.e. Mazda, and not just people singing from sales sheets that are written due to oil development via pistion engines !!!.

I still feel that Mazda are by far the best people to answer this question especially as they are still developing the Rotary right now and didn\'t stop developing it years ago as has been ludicrously suggested on this thread.

[efiniste]

Well I\'m about to pull and strip my engine that\'s done 5000 miles on Optimax and Royal Purple (apart from mineral oil when running in). I\'ll happily post pictures before I clean anything up (if I need to clean anything up that is!).

Steve

[clive]

Well I\'m about to pull and strip my engine that\'s done 5000 miles on Optimax and Royal Purple (apart from mineral oil when running in). I\'ll happily post pictures before I clean anything up (if I need to clean anything up that is!).

Steve

Hi Steve,

Sorry to hear that your engine has died so quick ( what of?)

Whilst its a great offer you have made and I would be interested to see the results I\'m not sure 5,000 is enough to build up any appreciable carbon "goo"

O\'yes I meant to put this story in last night ( just to bore you all some more)

The most graphic story I ever heard explaining not only frictional loses in an engine surrounding oil and what it actually does was when an Indianapolis Racer using the at the time dominant Turbocharged Offenhauser engine stripped the engine and expensively converted the crankshaft to accept roller bearings in place of the plain white metal bearings looking for an advantage over his fellow racers.

When the next Indy 500 arrived he was surprised to find his lap times were the same and that he had the same power as last year.

The reason was that he failed to understand that with the engine running and the oil pressure up the crankshaft actually "floats" completely on a film of oil between the two surfaces.

[efiniste]

Hi Clive, engine died of stupidity. I got a bit giddy with the boost on a cold night and cracked a tip. I\'m looking at it as an excuse to go single (although if my wife finds out how much I\'m about to spend that could be in more ways than one!).

I realise that there won\'t be much buildup but I\'ll post pics anyway. I\'ve got befores as well from last time I rebuilt it (the build, not the strip down) so I should be able to check exactly how much build up there is, if any.

[oilman]

I don\'t wish to pee on anyones bonfire but I did start this thread.

RP is not the only oil in the world chaps, good maybe but there are plenty of other decent synthetics that are as good if not better in some cases.

I\'ve been on this forum for a while now and yes I SELL OILS!

There are some very decent European Synthetics that Chemically are a match or better than RP, I have the analysis and comparisons of the quality (I have had them tested including RP) so don\'t think that you don\'t have a choice.

We use the Silkolene Pro S 5w-40 in the Dragon car because of its quality and use Motul 300V 5w-40 and 10w-40 in many highly modified RX7\'s 450bhp plus.

You don\'t have to pay £50 for 5L of oil when the likes of Silkolene and Motul are a little over £40 for 5L, expensive compared to GTX I know but they are not the same thing. One is boggo standard mineral oil and the other is ester/pao synthetic (manmade) not dug out of the ground!

Cheers
Simon

[oilman]

I\'m also happy to do a group buy on Silkolene Pro S 5w-40 (the same as Dragon use) and would require 10 orders minimum to cut a good deal for MRC.

Could also consider a deal on Motul 300V or 8100.

You\'ll find all of these oils in the Members Section of my website and others.

See plenty of offers here!

Cheers
Simon
http://www.opieoils.co.uk

[clive]

I don\'t wish to pee on anyones bonfire but I did start this thread.

RP is not the only oil in the world chaps, good maybe but there are plenty of other decent synthetics that are as good if not better in some cases.

I\'ve been on this forum for a while now and yes I SELL OILS!

There are some very decent European Synthetics that Chemically are a match or better than RP, I have the analysis and comparisons of the quality (I have had them tested including RP) so don\'t think that you don\'t have a choice.

We use the Silkolene Pro S 5w-40 in the Dragon car because of its quality and use Motul 300V 5w-40 and 10w-40 in many highly modified RX7\'s 450bhp plus.

You don\'t have to pay £50 for 5L of oil when the likes of Silkolene and Motul are a little over £40 for 5L, expensive compared to GTX I know but they are not the same thing. One is boggo standard mineral oil and the other is ester/pao synthetic (manmade) not dug out of the ground!

Cheers
Simon

To Be fair to Simon who quite rightly has pointed out that he started this thread that has now been hijacked by another Vendor and brand which does not seem very ethical, I now think the fairest thing to do is split the thread rather than watch two Vendors doing a my Dads bigger than your Dad.
Please go to the new thread called Royal Purple Oil to find the "other posts" removed from this thread.

[oilman]

Thankyou Clive, I wanted to resist the "my oils better than yours" stuff and stick to the whole point of the thread.

Getting back on track, I have put some questions to the Silkolene Chemist (the man who developed the oil for the Rotary engines in the spy drones) to which I hope to have answers soon which I will post here of course unabridged.

Your comments and questions are noted.

I have also requested of Silkolene whether they would be prepared to host a day at their plant in Stoke-on-Trent for MRC Members to learn about oil and put their questions to the man that knows!

If they agree (it may be limited numbers) it would be most interesting for those particularly with modded cars to learn why mineral oils are often not up to the job and can cause more harm than good in a stressed engine.

All I would say to those who are doubtfull of the benefits is it\'s your car and your money not mine and therefore I totally respect peoples personal choice of oil, if I am asked for advice I will give it and based on facts not fiction.

As I have said before, I use synthetics (good proper ones) in my rotary, would not dream of putting cheap oil in it. I love my car too much!

Cheers
Simon