Royal Purple Oil

[banned advertiser]

Ford Motor Company was experiencing problems with their Ford Puma rally engines, which was being caused by poor lubricant life. They changed to Royal Purple, and instead of changing the oil frequently through the rally, they were able to run for several rallies on the same sump full of Royal Purple oil.

This will go round in circles forever.

Tech info will educate and help people make informed decisions but wont change many buying decisions.

Like tuners, poeple have prefered oils, this will influence what they buy.

Some will stick there heads in the sand and because Mazda used information thats now 25 years old, will say "if it\'s not broke don\'t fix it".

How many guys with RX7\'s will be here in 2 years time, with the constant turnover of cars being sold, those may just say nutts, cheap will do, I wont have it come engine build.

It would be interesting to see an engine pulled apart that has run on fully syn oil. Recently Robbie on fduk pulled his engine with just a few thousand miles on it, bearly run in, and yet on mineral oil it was quiet scary to see the deposits on the rotors.

[kev-yorks]

I\'ll be pulling mine for some porting all being well at the end of the year. Its been run only on quartz 9000 fully synthetic so i\'ll take pics as and when. It may well either prove or disprove some of the myths.
Kevin

[banned advertiser]

Be interested to see Kev.

Unfortunately it only indicates a particular brand, without knowing its true make up, as lots of fully syns are all made with different ingredience.

But will be interesting.

[banned advertiser]

The design from the 7 to the 8 may well have improved, but remember the 7 works on OLD oil deisgn Fish

I can see a piston engine having huge changes in modernising from 25 years ago.
But the rotary being such a simple engine in comparision to the piston has probably had little change, and the tech use for oil not being much different. Not sure that its old tech that wont allow modern oils, unlike the piston.

[andrewrx7]

but remember the 7 works on OLD oil deisgn!

Fish

A genuine question (no sarcasm!!): what does that mean? What part of the FD engine is designed because of the oil type?

[andrewrx7]

Might also say, I\'ve also switched to RP - that was with around 8k on the engine, so almost new. Got to say, since putting the RP in, around 2k miles ago, done a bit of drag racing, the usual "fun" driving, dyno day etc...and the oil level has not dropped from the "Full" position. Maybe I\'m just not driving hard enough!!  :chat

[banned advertiser]

Yes some has done this and they don\'t recommend synthetics!  They\'re called Mazda, and people seem to ignore the vast amount of testing that went on to develop the engine.  Sorry oil man, good sales pitch, but I\'m not sold.....  (And my PHD was in gearbox development, largely focusing on wear and lubrication).

As for the new advice on the RX8, the wear characteristics and carbon adhesion properties of ceramics are vastly different to metals, and therefore the bear little relevance to and RX7.

Regards

Fraser

Hi Fraser
Not doubting your phd, and I deff do not have your qualifications, but mazda testing was done 30 years ago when the first rotaries came out, I doubt there have retested oils in the last 10 years to the same degree.
Not sure what you mean buy ceramics, as far as I know RX8 has no ceramic parts.
Please explain more.
Thanks
Gary

[Fish]

Gary, have to question a little bit. I am surethat Mazda would have done plenty of homework on the oil and seals issues.

OK I understand that the materials used have improved vastly, and the crap left behind from burning oil is reduced, but I would much rather trust the manufacturor than a salesman.

Not digging, but I bet other than Royal Purple the oil companies dont test on a rotary engine.

Fish

[andrewrx7]

Might just add another observation - don\'t know what it means though - that the RP I am currently using still looks very clean, even after about 2k miles. As I say, just an observation, but the other oils I have used in the past always seem to blacken up pretty quickly. I hope this is a good sign!

[kev-yorks]

That is one of the biggest diff\'s you\'ll find with snthetic\'s andrew beside\'s how well they lubricate they also clean the engine. When we swap from mineral to synthetic at work we normally do a short service interval with the first oil drop to help flush the system.
Kevin

[Adriansturgess]

Uhm....I\'d like some answers to this myself...at the moment I run cheap mineral oil but could be open to persuasion...I like the idea of less friction, more power, longer engine life etc..... but Clives\' question about tip to chamber wall contact sounds a bit alarming, would like to hear a knowlegable answer to that one.

[banned advertiser]

I would love to know for definite if any present day synthetics can break  "tip to chamber wall"  contact and therefore reduce or destroy compression.QUOTE]

Would not have thought a film of oil, how many micron? Would destroy compression? But may lower compression.
Lowering compression may not be a bad thing, if it saves fuel, engine etc but still runs with a slightly lower compression, that can’t be bad.
Using ceramic tips (you have used them) has proven to lower compression but are still a good thing, and still being used.
So not sure why this would be a deciding factor.
Does someone out there running a fully syn oil have access to a comp test, that would indicate without an expert from Mazda, which is never going to happen commenting, as to whether there is a compression problem.
Although that test would not necessarily prove anything as you would not know the condition of engine, but on a reasonably new car or engine would be an indication.
Said earlier, Im not an expert, but would like to see better proof and learn more.

[banned advertiser]

Gary, have to question a little bit. I am surethat Mazda would have done plenty of homework on the oil and seals issues.

OK I understand that the materials used have improved vastly, and the crap left behind from burning oil is reduced, but I would much rather trust the manufacturor than a salesman.

Not digging, but I bet other than Royal Purple the oil companies dont test on a rotary engine.

Fish

Hi Danny
No offence taken, Im all for learning more. No sales sheets just as I see it and from what Ive seen with Royal Purple.

Yes manufactures do spend millions on developement and research, but on almost every car that is made specialist made things even better, so it does not follow that every thing Mazda does is the best, some times economies play a part in running and messuring development.

Lots of tests come forward and observations on syn oils, but everyone saying only use mineral dont bring anything to the table, other than what Mazda say in a hand book. What tests have been done showing mineral as better?

Racing Beat in USA have strong ties with Mazda USA and I think Im right in saying help develop racing parts etc for Mazda, (if not they are definately an authority) and they recomend Royal Purple.
When I was at Rockingham some of the Jap guys that were there, saw Royal Purple on our stand, and got all excited as they dont see it often and sung its priases highly, Japs cant all be wrong about oils as well.

[banned advertiser]

I still feel that Mazda are by far the best people to answer this question especially as they are still developing the Rotary right now and didn\'t stop developing it years ago as has been ludicrously suggested on this thread.

We know that Mazda are still developing the rotary, but what was said if read correctly was I doubt as much reserch went in to oils during the last couple years as went in to oils when the rotary was first developed.
They had an oil, that worked, why spend millions looking at modern alternatives, if it did the job. Not did the job to improve running but did the basic requirement. Mazda where probably not worried what the enthusiast, or tuner thought, more of the average jo in the street which will have the car until out of warentee, then its not there problem.

Would be very interesting if you can get Mazda themselves to comment on oils, but I doubt it.

[Jake]

Just found the following after browsing the Royal Purple site regarding Royal Purple and rotaries.  Thought it might be of interest to this thread:


Rotary Engines

Can Royal Purple Motor Oil be used in a rotary engine?

Yes. A rotary engine is a modified four cycle engine that recommends the use of an API licensed motor oil for street applications.

More information and FAQs on lubrication of Rotary Engines:

In a rotary engine, the oil lubricates the eccentric shaft bearings, thrust needle bearings and rotor bearings similar to a crank and rod bearing of a piston engine as well as being injected into the combustion chambers to lubricate the apex seals, corner seals, and side seals helping to create the sealing mechanism doing the equivalent job of the piston rings.

Royal Purple provides outstanding protection for the e-shaft, rotor bearings, thrust bearings and is suitable for the oil injection system as it has proven to run cleaner than other oils and is an excellent choice for rotary apex seals, corner seals, and side seals.

Mazda makes a statement in the Owner’s Manual not to use synthetic oils in a rotary engine, why do you say that it is OK?

Royal Purple has performed seal compatibility testing on the components used in a rotary with excellent results, including older rotary engine seals dating back to the Cosmo. Royal Purple’s Technical Services Manager David Canitz has been an owner and racer of rotary engine cars and has used synthetic motor oils in rotaries since 1985 with excellent results. He has been trying to find an answer to this Mazda statement for the last 18 years.

In the early development of synthetic oils decades ago, there were purportedly some seal compatibility issues. Today’s synthetic oils do not have the compatibility issues of the old oils. There is no substantiated evidence of seal compatibility issues with Royal Purple.

Here are some facts:

 The Mazda Factory racing departments recommend and use ‘synthetic’ oils including the winning 1991 Leman’s 20-G 4 rotor Mazda 787B.
 
 MazdaComp USA printed manual (now Mazdaspeed) recommends the use of synthetic oils for racing conditions.
 
 Royal Purple Motor Oils have been used in rotary engines (both race and street) for ten plus years with excellent results.
 
 Royal Purple Motor Oil is compatible with the bearing material, sealing elastomers, and combustion seals used in a rotary engine.
 

I heard that synthetic oil doesn\'t burn like mineral based oils and will coat the inside of the engine with deposits.

If this was a problem with synthetic motor oils in general, then all internal combustion engines using a ‘synthetic’ would experience increased deposits on internal surfaces. The opposite is actually the norm.

Conventional four cycle motor oils will typically leave deposits of carbon and ash when injected into the rotary apex seal, corner seal, and side seal areas. Royal Purple’s motor oil actually burns cleaner due to the synthetic base stock being free of contamination and many of the additives being ‘ashless’. This may not be true for all synthetics but Royal Purple has been proven to work extremely well in rotary engines.

Royal Purple’s formulation of synthetic hydrocarbon motor oil does burn at the nominal combustion temperatures experienced in both street and racing applications, whether normally aspirated, turbocharged, or supercharged. (500 â€" 1700° F idle to race rpms typical combustion temps)

Will the synthetic oil effect the oil seals?

No. Royal Purple’s Motor Oil is fully compatible with the elastomers found in rotary engines as well as more conventional piston engines. The oil seals, housing seals and other elastomers used in rotary engines typically consist of Buna N, Nitriles, Neoprene, or Viton materials which are also commonly found in piston engine cars.

I hear that synthetic is ‘thinner or lighter’ oil, is there a greater possibility that the oil will leak between the seals?

No. If an engine’s sealing surfaces are in good condition, synthetic oil should not cause any leakage. However, if an engine has marginal seals, there is a 50/50 chance the seals will leak less or more. A synthetic motor oil is going to have similar viscosity to that of a conventional motor oil â€" except at extreme temperatures. Due to a flatter viscosity curve, at low temperatures it will not thicken as much (easier winter cranking) and it does not thin out as quickly at higher operating temperatures (better oil film at higher rpm).

Should I go longer or shorter between oil changes?

Royal Purple recommends that the maximum oil drain / filter change interval listed in the Owner’s Manual be followed while under warranty (new RX8). For FA, FB, FC, FC Turbos, and FD rotaries, extending drain intervals from two to five fold is possible if desired. Since the rotary engine injects oil through the use of a metered oil pump, either adding oil into the carb base plate air / fuel mixture or directly injecting oil into the rotor housing, rotary engines will consume oil of one quart per 1000 â€" 3000 miles. It is important to maintain the proper crankcase oil level in your rotary engine if you decide to extend oil drain intervals.

If I pre-mix my fuel for the rotary engine, do I use the same ratio as with mineral based oils? Does it burn at the same rate?

In an ideal world, the rotary engine metered oil pump should inject an ashless oil designed to burn in the combustion chamber and use a four cycle oil in the crankcase for the eccentric shaft, rotor bearings, and thrust bearings. For the street, Mazda simplified the OE system to use just one oil, that being a typical four cycle oil for both the e-shaft as well as the combustion chamber. Royal Purple recommends using our standard TCW III 2 Cycle Oil if the metered oil pump is still enabled. The two cycle oil being added to the fuel tank is in addition to what Mazda designed to inject and acts as a supplement or insurance. Depending on which engine, the level of modifications (street port, Bridgeport, peripheral port, nitrous, turbocharged) and application, the typical mix ratio could vary from 200:1 to 800:1.

For a pure racing application where the metered oil pump has been disabled or removed, again based on the actual engine and modification level, the ratio could vary from 150:1 to 600:1. For this application, we recommend our Racing 2 Cycle TCW III product or the standard 2 Cycle TCW III can also be used.

A stock FD twin turbo 13B with the MOP oil injection system can typically use about one quart per 1500 miles under hard street driving. If this vehicle is getting 15 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio is 400:1. If the oil consumption on this vehicle reduces to 1 quart per 2500 miles and fuel efficiency increases to 20 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio increases to 600:1. The stock metering oil pump is a great system as it varies with throttle position (load on the engine). Pre-mixing has to be calculated for the ‘worst case’ that will be seen by the engine for that fuel load. Under racing conditions, that’s wide open throttle at racing rpms. This means that at idle, the ratio may be slightly fat (rich).