3 rotor conversion

[normski]

Sorry but it will not be there this year.
Why ?  We are going abroad, and the car is going to LeMans with us on a trailer.

Anyone want the same conversion it\'s around £26000.00 so Pip says! ouch!!!!

Sad but true!

[Jake]

Woah, that\'s a hell of a lot of money.  What is the benefit in doing this conversion over spending 20k on a 13b?

[John Yorke]

Woah, that\'s a hell of a lot of money.  What is the benefit in doing this conversion over spending 20k on a 13b?

Ask the question.................... How many 3 rotor FD\'s do you see? It is an awsome conversion but, alot of work, the gains ....... It is a total show stopper, the torque is phenominal, dont think there is much out there to touch it.
Spend 20K on a 13b, you would get the bhp but not the torque but it would be a well sorted car.
All comes down to what you want, as an engineering exercise the 20b is the way to go, if you have that deeper pockets to do it right.
Think there maybe one or 2 supprises @ RS111 :cool

[rx7veilside]

or for half the price whack a ls1/6 speed box 25mpg and shedloads of torque..dont see many of them either

[normski]

Yes it\'s monster job. some big B-spoke engineering work has gone on. I don\'t want to count the cost of it all but pip has done me a big ass favour by Sponsoring it to the tune of thousands, as it was his first proper road use 20B conversion. We have gone through the brakes, instruments, b-spoke radiator, gearbox, cooling system, fuel system, Exhaust manifold, engine mounts, breaded hoses, the list goes on and on. It’s not an easy job even for the mighty Pip Gardener, Hundreds of hours if work. But, as he said, he now has the patterns and knows all the little bad bits, so the next one should not take anywhere near so long. I suppose my one was the experimental version, it’s his prototype. Anyway the nightmare for my pocket is almost over. Yes your right, about the extra pull from the 20B engine, it will rip your face off.  Also it is far more reliable with big power, that was why I went for it in the first place. I did not want to keep on paying 10K a time, every year for new engine.  :god  long live the 20B

[Newera]

I don\'t doubt Pip\'s work, but I\'ve never yet seen a 20B in an FD chassis get particularly good results around a racetrack. Have seen Pan Speed\'s stunningly well prep\'d 550 bhp 13B be 2nd fastest only to an 800 bhp race prepared R32 by Garage Saurus, here in Japan.

Would a 20B be as quick?

Not really...

The only 3 rotor FD that\'s well known in Japan is RE-Amemiya\'s red show car with T78 Turbo. It\'s fast, but not THAT quick!

Although, relatively speaking... FD tuners in Japan generally don\'t fit 3 rotor engines into their cars for circuits and drag racing\'s not that popular in Japan...

Maybe a 20B will be quick as a drag car, but that\'s a waste of an FD chassis.  

Just my opinion of course!

If 20B in an FD is your thing, I\'m happy for ya!

Miguel.

[normski]

You make some interesting points there on the 20B. I don\'t know on the 13B or the 20B thing. BUT! (if sorted correctly) a 13B will never match the pull of the 20B. As also said, 13B will go pop pulling 550 BHP (probably) far far quicker than the 550BHP 120B engine would. It seems the main place for the 20B conversions in the FD are Aus, and the USA. There are a few very well sorted ones out there. Anyway I hope my thing should be putting out around 620BHP which is still not stressing the thing too much. The US LeMans race venue has a number LMP1 prototype 20B cars racing in it, has been for the last 2 or 3 years, and they have done very very well. Most are pushing well over 700BHP for over 12 hours without going POP! As Pip says, it\'s not too bad to stuff a 20B into an FD, but to maintain the 50/50 balance and still do it is another thing. The other aspect is the running and setup of the car. most find it very very hard to sort out. Take poor old Carl and his 4 rotor, he is still working on the monster. 3 and 4 rotor engines are sods to set up to run nice and smooth. Carl would agree with that one, ask him. But as we say, when they are sorted, they are total beasts. Sorry but for me, take a well tuned 13B pulling 5 to 600BHP and it would not last a hart beat against a similar  level tuned 20B which would be outputting near 900BHP or more.

For my money, the 13B engine ( for road use and a life of at least 70K) is only good for around 400 to 450BHP. If you go too much above that with them they die very very quick, I know, cos I have done it. My thing should last 80 to 90K even with around 600BHP thats for me is upside of the 20B engine. And of course that massive pull!  :yes

[JamesFD3]

Isn\'t RE- Amemiya\'s Asparadrink GT300 RX-7 a N/A 3-rotor? Must be a reason why they use the 3-rotor engine,torque,reliabilty etc...

[antnicuk]

Norm

Sounds like yours will be well a well sorted conversion,  what kind of boost you hoping to run?
I would like to see what Torque Kev Yorks car puts out....  anyone know?
The supercharged 20b FD we have has no more Torque than my 13b at the moment although its still in the early stages of tuning and mine was running less boost.

With ECU\'s ready made for the 20b, setting up is no different to a 13b,  plug and play, although you may have to make your own loom as you would for a 13b with a microtec or motec. Carls beast is a different kettle of fish completely

I hate to be brutally honest here but i dont think you will see 70k miles on a stock 20b let alone one with 600 plus BHP.  Our stock cosmo died of natural causes at 55k. You got to remember that all the componants are identical in the 20b as they are for the 13b except the eccentric shaft is in 2 pieces and longer which is why they take a little more work to make them high rev, same rotors, seals, springs and housings etc doing the same revolutions as a 13b, so why should it last longer?  (based on the same tuning)

It will obviosly have more power than a 13b running the same porting and boost as the engine is 50% bigger. So your right when you say a 13b running the same power as a 20 b will go pop sooner cos it has to run more boost to match the power.

You also wont see 70k out of a 13b with 450 bhp, more like 25k.... if i\'m lucky

[kev-yorks]

Not on a full tune yet Tony but at the mo its 380ft/lb@0.94bar.
Kevin

[iaint]

I love the idea of the 3-rotor conversion - it\'s just stunning but it\'s not a rational choice - it\'s more a labour of love!

For the price you could do a very high-revving 13b - it\'d have a huge advantage round track letting you stay in gear longer.  You could also run it at high-boost mapped safely.  I\'d love one.

It still wouldn\'t be a 20b though.

I\'ve often wondered if a n/a 20b would be feasible for ultimate reliability and brappy power..?

Other alternatives would be to use some of the custom sandwiches from Oz - close to the length of the 13b but triple rotor. Mmmmm.  But you\'d pay for it.

Normski - will you be at Le Mans for the 24 hours?  If so I\'d love to catch up with you and have a nose round El Beast.

Iain

[antnicuk]

thats pretty good going, ours is 320 ish (iirc) at 0.8,   what sort of rpm is that?,  i was suprised how high up the rev band the torque was on ours.  But then there must be a reason Mazda put twins on it as standard,   it increased the torque on the 13b.

Do you think you will lose torque by removing the exhaust sleeves?  we removed ours but couldnt comapre it to its previous state.

[20B_boy]

My thing should last 80 to 90K even with around 600BHP thats for me is upside of the 20B engine.

Thats scary! :-O

[Newera]

He, he - Nice to have an intelligent conversation here...

The 20b is 33% larger than the 13b, 3 rotors against 2 (Not 50%).

I guess there\'s a point, yes - 600 bhp is easier to make reliably with a 20b than a 13b. Can\'t dispute that  :driving

The difficulty people have with these in Aus, is weight balance. Without knocking out some of the bulkhead and moving the engine back, you\'re going to have too much weight over the front of the cross member, resulting in an upset of the 50/50 weight balance an FD\'s mostly unique for.

Also there has to be a strong cradle to stop the engine from twisting itself. This is fitted in the 20b but won\'t fit in a 13b - so something has to be made up, and the list goes on and on.

Sorted 20b FD\'s may exist in the States & in Aus, but they\'re countries where drag\'s the big thing, usually... Not so in Japan. Drag\'s kinda that way in the UK to a smaller extent, but hopefully time-attack will gain popularity. Driving properly and high speed handlings is what the FD\'s all about for - to me, anyways... :3gears-lh

Tuned 20b\'s do sound awesome in anger though. I\'m not sure I\'d want 600 bhp in a car like this if the handling was compromised and the cost was so high to make, but if it\'s a well sorted reliable well handling car, that\'s going to come out (If anyone in the UK can do it, it\'ll be Pip, IMHO!) - then it\'ll be very special.

Say for example it did cost £20K for the 20b conversion... How many rebuilds could you do with that much money on a 13b... 4-6, depending on the extent of failure, roughly? Say you watched compression closely - you could re-fresh when due...

Or spend the £20K on something else that\'s interesting, such as a V-Tec powered Aerial Atom....Maybe you could find a used one of those. Power / weight ratio\'s SICK!!

But getting back to rotaries - Le Mans cars can\'t be compared to road cars - period. :King

One other well known UK tuner of rotaries tried making a 20b FD 4 years ago, for a customer whose car we supplied. The 20b was fitted with an undersized turbo, plus had no cradle, the results were an unreliable engine at best which had 3 rebuilds (not by the same tuner, I might add!) before the owner sold it on. It was some 4 years ago when the tuner had much less experience, but it demonstrated how things shouldn\'t be done.  :3Confused  :2Confused  :2Confused

Looking forward to seeing this project. Are there any pics of the build? Would love to see them ! :yes  :Thumbsup!

Miguel.

[antnicuk]

Hi Miguel,
how are you doing?

just a couple of points,   the 20b is 50 % bigger than a 13b,  but the 13b is 33% smaller than the 20b,   50% of 2 rotors is 1 rotor, add that to the 2 and you have 3.......  not easy to explain but i tried....... :xconfused  :xconfused

The 20 b we have is fitted well back and the front of the engine block is in the same place as a 13b if not further back.

We just bolted the whole cosmo subframe on the front of the FD so the engine uses the stock mounts etc is obviously as strong as stock. The cosmos, like the FD has a complete self contain suspension set up, so the geometry is set up regardless of whre you bolt it on the car.  We didnt have to cut the bulk head out we just modified its shape a little............... with a hammer, but i have seen the bulk head cut out on others.   Ours and the other that i have seen both have the engine sat further back, you obviously have to modify the prop and move the gear change point in the gear box so the lever remains in the same position in the car which isnt actually too difficult.

I assume your talking about the pink FD which roundabout owned.  Thats been very quiet.

I agree that you cant compare le man cars to stock cars though,  i think they coated the housings in something and may have used different tips but dont hold me to that.

Saying all that, i personally would prefer a 13b with good power,  the fuel economy of a ported 20 b is painfull and the power people are getting from 13bs at low boost is phenomanal unless you have an all out drag car of course,  (the one i refer to is my cousins car by the way)