A/F Ratio type question

[sdminus]

I ran a water spray bar and have concidered a co2 version. I have a Nx ntercooler spray bar on my fmic.
However i decided not to go with the co2 version because i was concearned about sucking co2 into the intake.
I m by no means an expert on this but i have ditched it for a dual stage water injection kit. Need less to say i am very pleased with it and my FMIC. Im not attracted to the charge cooler due to the fact my FMIC works so well. Water temps are stable and it is a very reliable setup.
Beware if you drop your temps to low you could experiance fuel drop out !!!!

Scott

[Tintin]

How low are we talking ?? and whats fuel drop out ??

One of the main resasons to start this project was to try something new , I think this setup will really prove its self on really hot days when even the water in your WI tanks is starting to warm up

[sdminus]

I dont know the full in\'s and out\'s but believe it to be when the air charge is very low. From what i understand of it when the correction table can not provide enough fuel. ( hense why i dont map my own car LOL )
My water spray bar was my saviour at rotorstock but let me down badly at santa pod. Its not precise enough. Basically i was always guessing how long to run it for. I used 3 liters of water in 2 runs at the pod.
On that day i decided to go WI. I really rate it. best mod i have done. When i looked into the co2 many people told me to be careful of the solinoid freezing open.


Im no expert just thought i would share some of my findings. :-)

[Tintin]

I am actually planning on fitting WI as well for everyday use and the CO2 will be for use on the strip ,

just got round to doing the CO2 first , thought I\'d ask a few questions and I got chatting to Richard at Turbobits and the rest is history , before I knew it we\'d designed the system and were trying to work out the final details , whole process lasted less than a week , its costing me a bit more than I wanted to pay but I couldn\'t find a way of reducing the costs easily

Once I get this set up and running I\'ll move on to WI , want to find out as much as I can as I don\'t necessarily want to go down the "usual" route , also fancy building my own kit , not to save money but understand it all a bit more

[sdminus]

Do you have a air chrage temp gauge ?

I get air charge temps at a few degs above ambient or a deg or 2 less with WI. The prob i found was that you only truly know what your air charge will be when you start you run. By which point it will be too late. You could try putting in a boost activated switch to trigger it but i feal you will drop your temps too far which will lead to differant probs but all with a similar result.

Scott

I can lend you my nx spary bar if you like so you can have a play

[Tintin]

Cheers for the offer of lending me the spraybar but my stuff will be being shipped out today

Blimey I didn\'t realise the WI was that effective or is that just your FMIC doing its job ? , I don\'t think I\'m going to get things that cool as I\'m running a stock interheater , eventually I want to go to a CC with the CO2 on the CC\'s radiator , I\'m going to activate it via a micro switch on WOT ( the WI was going to be done on boost ) . I\'ve been put off FMIC\'s in the past because of the stuff said about the radiator not getting enough cooling and pressure drop due and lag due to the length of pipe run and bends

I better get myself a intake temp gauge and speak to someone in the know , really didn\'t realise you can go too low as when you inject nitrous into the inlet manifold thats pretty damn cold and I thought the temp sensor would pick that up

[sdminus]

When you inject nitrous you also add fuel to the best of my knowledge.
I think there is a lot of scare mongering with the fd. FMIC is one of those things. If its installed well the water temps dont suffer at all. I did a very long stint ( on a track of course) at 110 - 160 mph on a very very hot day and my water temps came up to about 85 degs.
You could use a boost activated switch like on my WI. I think they are cheap My WI comes in a .1 bar and then the second stage at .7 bar all controlled by boost activated micro switches

Scott

[Tintin]

it depends what type of nitrous kit your running , wet you inject extra fuel , dry you don\'t

I spoke to Richard about this today , he didn\'t think it would be an issue but we\'ll just have to see

The new problem is I don\'t think a bottle is going to last very long , did a quick calc and worked out the bottle should last about 8 seconds   so to combat this we\'re put less holes in the spray bar and once I\'ve formed it I\'m going to solder over any holes that aren\'t needed , hopefully as the bottle gets emptied it will cool which will lower bottle pressure and make the CO2 last longer , if I can get 20 secs out of a bottle I can live with that so 2 bottles would give me 40 secs which would hopefully enough gas for 3 runs
This is bearing in mind that the feed line length won\'t be an issue , obviously once the bottle is empty theres no pressure to push down whats still in the line so this would be dead gas

As I\'ve said before this is going to be a case of trial and error , hopefully it will all pay off  

[Tintin]

Who said anything about budget

Decided today that a 20oz bottle just wasn\'t going to cut it , previously thought about using two bottles but realised today that it only worked out a touch cheaper than a 5lb bottle , add another £30 and you\'ve got a 11lb bottle

An 11lber wouldn\'t need filling very often , also wouldn\'t need a decanting whip which I would have done with a 20ozer so an 11lber it is , price has now doubled so the budget is well and truely shot , and at the end of the day if it isn\'t very effective I\'ll just get a fuel solonoid , fogger and refill the bottle with NO2

Should have most the gear this week so it should be somewhere near by JAE

[sdminus]

Good luck !!! will be nice to see the results

Scott

[zevans]

You\'re a nutter.

Anyway, spose there is a risk of leaning out, for the same reasons there\'s a risk of leaning out if you have intake / exhaust / big turbo - you\'re shoving more lumps of air in. You\'ve done it a different way,  but that\'s still what you\'re doing...

The car\'s aware of intake temp so it will know it has to inject more fuel - but if something in the fuelling systems can\'t provide any more, you\'ll lean out! That might be because you\'ve gone off the ECU map, or if you have fixed that, you might go beyond what the standard fuel injectors can handle. Have you got anything fitted that will show you injector duty?

[Tintin]

You\'re a nutter.

Nice to be appriciated  :bandit

I don\'t have anything to show the duty cycle of the injectors and as for leaning out , if its only a bit I can\'t see this being a problem as its running well well well rich at the mo due to the RE-Amemiya ECU , so rich infact I\'m losing quite a bit of power ( thats according to Noble Motorsport )

When we went to the rolling road day down there I ran it with the boost button on , they assured me that if it started leaning out they would stop it there and then as I was a touch concered after hearing of a few fatalities connected to this , anyway , A/F ratio started off at 13:1 but by 3500 revs had dropped to 10:1 , should have been making 1.1 bar with the button but only made a shade under 13psi when the second turbo kicked in , it then slowley fell to 11psi . They assured me this was because of the overfueling , should the graph to Pip and he agreed , Cant quite afford an Apexi at the mo , so I\'ve decided to live with it untill I can

I\'ve taken the day off tomorrow to start the fitting , once its up and running I\'m going to hook 3 digital meters with mp probes on them to see how effective its working

1st will be in one of the filters so I know what temp the airs starting at
2nd will be before the intercooler so I\'ll know what damage the turbos have done
3rd will be either after the intercooler or around the inlet manifold to see how well air has cooled

I\'m planning on doing 3 runs

1st will be with intercooler fans and CO2 off
2nd just intercooler fans on , don\'t think this will make a great difference on the move think they\'ll do a better job standing still as they\'ll still be pulling air through
3rd will be the major one , intercooler fans on and CO2 on
Might do a 4th run with CO2 on but fans off just out of curiosity

I have know idea what sort of results I\'m going to see yet but I\'m hoping its going to be worth the trouble

Any idea what sort of temps are going to cause problems , would have thought the map can deal with most temps as I can\'t see things going into sub centigrades and anything above should be like driving in the middle of winter , does this sound logical

At the end of the day , as long as I don\'t cause any damage to the engine its all good , if it doesn\'t work , so be it , I\'ve learnt a bit and tryed a different aproach to others on here , if it does work though , great stuff , I\'ll have opened up a whole new avenue for others to explore , I know CO2 sprays are\'nt a new thing but I aint heard of anyone on here doing it ( could be a good reason for this )

On a different subject , I beat a Honda CBR 400 ( we think ) last night , I was well chuffed as my mate whos into his bikes assures me that they are pretty fast , he was also equally impressed that I did him   RACING IS NOT BIG OR CLEVER but this is how it went , standing start held him all the way through the gears , had to hit the rev buzzer in every gear to keep with him then finally flew past him at about 135 ish ( my mate reckons they top out at about 130 , this is why we think it was a 400 )

Anyway , more on the CO2 tomorrow hopefully with some pics

[Tintin]

Fitting is causing more thinking about than I anticipated , there is just no room under that bonnet

Anyway , got the sparybar installed , solenoid in there and piped to the spraybar , WOT is on , that took a bit of thinking about and jiggery pokery

Just got to run the braided line through the car or under the car can\'t work out which yet , and mount the bottle when it arrives , small mistake by Turbobits , the ordered it full of N2O rather than CO2 , hasn\'t charged me and it will work the same , then I just got to wire it all up ( thankfully thats the easy bit )

Mounting the bottle is going to take a bit of imagination as there isn\'t enough room under the shelf to mount the bottle on the correct brackets , I got a rough idea but I\'ll have to see if I can get the bits I need


Things are looking good for being finished for JAE , but I better not do any more today , getting grief off the missis for not spending any time with her

[zevans]

OK, you\'re not a nutter, you crossed the fine line into genius!

[Tintin]

Cheers fella  :rollin  :rollin  :rollin  :rollin