FMIC advice

[Indian]

Oh that\'s mine alright. All 734whp when Steve Kan tuned it on his dyno. No Rw throttle body there.
 Thanks for checking out my profile.

Let me enlighten you. People do not change the stock intercooler because of flow lol they change it because if cooling characteristics. It becomes heat soak very quickly, it doesn\'t flow less like what your jumping in. You should take some physics classes.

Btw; just to add to your lesson, go to any website that sells intercooler kits.. if you look closely,  they will print their pistol drop..  not gain! Gosh man .. your thick

[Grizzly]

So i was right, Trolling it is then...............

Try Fitting WI so your air temp stays solid then try dynoing with a Stock, PFS SMIC and a FMIC and come back and tell me what extra power you get

[Indian]

Actually, after some thought, you may be right.
I\'m going to sell my PFC and go back to a stocker.
Thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge.
Now I\'m away to meet Grizzly, we\'re going on a date.:rolleyes:

It\'s comments like this that shows the limits if your intelligence.  Your one if those big spenders that don\'t go very fast arent you?

[Indian]

So i was right, Trolling it is then...............

Again , trying to explain reasons for the change and I\'m trolling.. genius :evillaugh

[Indian]

So i was right, Trolling it is then...............

Try Fitting WI so your air temp stays solid then try dynoing with a Stock, PFS SMIC and a FMIC and come back and tell me what extra power you get

Dumb ass,  no one is saying you might not make a bit more power changing intercoolers. I\'m questioning your logic as to why you got a boost increase when you changed to a bigger intercooler.  Can you not read?

Again you prove how intelligent you are..

[philiwily]

Lol, as fast as my very limited budget will let me, no 750bhp here.
But I do all my own building, tuning and mapping, so usually know a bit more than someone who just hands other people money. Wink wink.
I\'m going now, bye.

[Indian]

Lol. Never said I was a tuner. But I have whAt you lack.. common and logic sense. After whAt you displayed here, I would think about bringing a bicycle to your shop..building..wwhatever you say you have

[Grizzly]

Dumb ass,  no one is saying you might not make a bit more power changing intercoolers. I\'m questioning your logic as to why you got a boost increase when you changed to a bigger intercooler.  Can you not read?

Again you prove how intelligent you are..

O man, No PRESURE increase. Lets spell this out..... The Boost stays the same but you get more Volume!!!

So 1 bar stock ic v\'s 1 bar V-Mount or FMIC. You will get more power with the aftermarket Intercooler at the SAME!!! boost presure because there is more VOLUME!!!! of air going through it.

Calling me Dumb?? I feel for you. Go and ask the Guy who Built your car and he will bring you up to speed.

[Indian]

O man, No PRESURE increase. Lets spell this out..... The Boost stays the same but you get more Volume!!!

So 0.8 bar stock ic v\'s 0.8 bar V-Mount or FMIC. You will get more power with the aftermarket Intercooler at the SAME!!! boost presure because there is more VOLUME!!!! of air going through it.

Calling me Dumb?? I feel for you.

You\'ve got to be :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing kidding me right? Please tell me your joking with me on this ?  Can believe I stayed up for this . Lmao

[Grizzly]

Just a quick question, do you think a To4e at 1 bar puts out the same HP as a S475 at 1 bar? on identical set ups? Or what about a T04E at 1 bar on a stock Motor would make the same power as a T04E at 1 bar on a Full Bridge?




Its all about getting as much Air in as you can for the set Boost presure, once you have done that you add fuel and you get Power.......

[Grizzly]

Dumb ass,  no one is saying you might not make a bit more power changing intercoolers. I\'m questioning your logic as to why you got a boost increase when you changed to a bigger intercooler.  Can you not read?

Again you prove how intelligent you are..

I\'ll be Honist you are starting to confuse me now, so you argue you don\'t make any more power with an IC then you contridict your self and say you can? Then you Question my Logic ?? you have just said " no one is saying you might not make a bit more power changing intercoolers"

Btw tell me where i said anything about Boost Increase in Presure i said the VOLUME!! will increase when you remove restrictions at the same Boost Presure. Maybe thats your problem you don\'t know the Diffrence.

[Indian]

Just a quick question, do you think a To4e at 1 bar puts out the same HP as a S475 at 1 bar? on identical set ups? Or what about a T04E at 1 bar on a stock Motor would make the same power as a T04E at 1 bar on a Full Bridge?




Its all about getting as much Air in as you can for the set Boost pressure, once you have done that you add fuel and you get Power.......

ahh boi.. your a daft one...  There are so many components that affect the factor of output here... I wouldn\'t be able to tell you unless I look at the maps for both turbos.. just because it\'s bigger doesnt necessarily mean youll make more power at a particular psi than a smaller turbo, but I would have hope that you would know that and werent trolling :rolleyes:..


now your comparing a stock motor to a bridge motor??... wow... you soon tell me its impossible to make over 500 on a stock motor too right?

[Indian]

I\'ll be Honist you are starting to confuse me now, so you argue you don\'t make any more power with an IC then you contridict your self and say you can? Then you Question my Logic ?? you have just said " no one is saying you might not make a bit more power changing intercoolers"

Btw tell me where i said anything about Boost Increase in Presure i said the VOLUME!! will increase when you remove restrictions at the same Boost Presure. Maybe thats your problem you don\'t know the Diffrence.

oye... ok got your CFM and boost pressure thing.... it was late and I was doing this on a phone last night... however...


here is where your logic seem mixed to me:
The stock IC is only good for Stock Boost, if you wind it up the IC won\'t be able to handle the extra flow so will act as a restriction, put a better flowing ic on and you will remove that Issue.

here is my Rebuttal:

First your theory on better airflow is all over the place.. you put more restrictions on air flow with longer pipes and more bends that the shorter run intercooler.

 Again I will say this.. people change intercoolers due to cooling inefficiency air increase causes the by product of cooling inefficiency  . You can push 50 psi of pressure through he stock intercooler and it will be fine.. However,it will  not be able to cool the air effectively as say a larger core intercooler with more surface area would. FACT..

For example... the dodge srt4\'s: have a larger direct replacement intercooler for higher boosting cars... you take out the stock intercooler core and replace it with the upgraded one... factory routing and pipes...  

case in point: http://www.modernperformance.com/product/MPx_Big_Front_Mount_Intercooler_03-05_Neon_SRT4/587
and
http://www.turboneonstore.com/customer/product.php?productid=647&cat=16&page=1

and here:

You don\'t seem to be getting the extra power doesn\'t come from the Cooler air but the Volume of air[/B][/U], you are removing a restriction in the smaller IC so for the same say 15psi of boost you are Pushing more VOLUME of air into the Bore which needs more fuel. The added lower inlet temp will also add more hp if fueled correctly but is not the reason for the extra power.

On the contrary, you do get more power from the lower charged air. it is a well known principle in the automotive world. Your volume theory does not work as i would expect that you know hot air expands right? It is all related to intercooler cooling characteristics. If your not changing your psi, then the only way to affect the motor with an intercooler to make more power is to cool the charge air more efficiently.


Maybe you should explain to me how the volume of air increases with an intercooler change and no psi change:

While you think about that,

lets me introduce some basic elementary physics to you:

volume= mass/density. so as you can see from the basic equation that volume is related to mass and density.

If you are not changing the mass(psi of air in the this case) then the only factor the change the volume is density... here is what Im trying to show you where your wrong...  if you increase the density of air as what an more efficient intercooler does,then what happens to the volume? lets plug in some easy numbers...

using mass as a constant of say..10 (arbitrary number)

we have :

v= 10/ say 5 = 2   ... hope you agree here
now,

v= 10/ say 7(increase in density as what intercoolers are marketed for = 1.42...    what happened to your volume?

Ok, I guess your going to say that the air is in a cylinder and your correct. however all your doing is routing an already quantified amount of air from one place to other and either heating or cooling it before reaching the throttle body. changing size isnt the highest factor here, its cooling at these moderate boost levels. Your force to change the size when you push more volume of air from the Turbo. Having more volume with a bigger pipe and intercooler helps with dissipation of heat and increases cooling efficiency as air is no longer tightly packed and can be spread out into a bigger surface area(intercooler) so that the molecules can be cooled effectively while channeling the increased amount of air.

 Bigger pipes will cause lag in the system, how is this more efficient? if there is an increase of volume by changing an intercooler then please explain how you will see a drop in response when the boost comes on? Surely the "increase in volume" would compensate for the new length of piping added.

please enlighten me.


Touching on the RW throttle body that your praising so much, . Remember the dyno they showed of how they gained around 10psi? well did you ask yourself what happened to the mass volume of air that passed the throttle body and entered the double trottlebodies?
think about it.. air velocity and channeling is the winner for this one.. some things arent just as they looked, there is a bit more of science behind them.


All of this is relative though, as my argument still stands that a stock turbo stock ecu rx7 with an upgraded intercooler is perfectly fine. :WaveBye

[Grizzly]

ahh boi.. your a daft one...  There are so many components that affect the factor of output here... I wouldn\'t be able to tell you unless I look at the maps for both turbos.. just because it\'s bigger doesnt necessarily mean youll make more power at a particular psi than a smaller turbo, but I would have hope that you would know that and werent trolling :rolleyes:..


now your comparing a stock motor to a bridge motor??... wow... you soon tell me its impossible to make over 500 on a stock motor too right?

Ok to make power you need fuel and air/Oxegen right? You can add Fuel very easy but to add more air at a set PSI is more difficult, you don\'t need to look at any Compressor map to say that the Bigger Turbo will put out Much more Volume of air at the same Boost presure so will make more Hp at that PSI?  

When people started using WI they found that you can drop air temps dramatically, the knock on effect is that you COULD use no intercooler if you wanted which would give you the ideal flow (which is what i\'m talking about) but for people that use their cars on the road this really isn\'t ideal so they buy really good flowing Intercoolers, you said about Pressure drop across an IC as well, you know the idea is not to get a pressure drop don’t you? what i mean is if you bought for example a Apexi GT fmic you would see allot less drop than say a £50 Bar and plate IC of ebay, why\'s that? Because it flows air better? why spend all that time Port matching and gas flowing if the IC is letting you down? (the more air disturbance the less flow you will get)

It\'s painful that you think a Stock IC is as efficient as a Apexi GT at moving volme of air? now if you had said yes but the Turbo response would suffer i would agree (longer pipes take more filling etc) but we\'re not talking about that (even though my Dyno graph would say otherwise), we are talking about a car at 6k with a Bar of Boost going through it, wi is on full blast and the Inlet temp is 18deg on both runs. No trying to cover it up the Apexi WILL FLOW MORE AIR.

Now 50psi through a Stock IC, Yes of course you can put a 1/4" air line with 50psi coming out of it through the IC but your CFM will be low, i bet on a Stock ic at something mad like 100cfm you would struggle to flow 10psi through a stock IC let allone 50psi as i keep saying as the Volume Increase it finds areas of the inlet that causes disturbance or unclean flow and that causes a restriction almost like your going from a 3" pipe to a 2.5" pipe. You will always find power however small by doing the Little things (port matching so there isn\'t a step between manifolds, removing as many 90deg bends as poss, not using end tanks that force the air directly into the back of the tank etc) This is why a Side port motor Will never put as much air / volume in the bore as a P/P, even when the peripheral is a smaller area than the two combined side ports.

Now Stock motors, My Fav. I like to Keep my Ports small myself as i like the Fast gas flow for low end/Off boost torque and drivability. Yes 500hp can be made and Pete Riceracing has done it for quite some time. BUT!! he doesn\'t use Volume he uses Presure so where as a Bridge would be making that Hp at 1 bar Pete\'s ports are open half the time so his air speed has to be Dubble so this means Much more Presure to get the same Volume of Oxegen/Air into the bore (assuming his air temp is the same with all that WI he uses)... You could say "but he uses a SMIC" but he will be the first to tell you it would have gone allong time ago but he wanted the Stock as OEM look.

I wrote this a Little quick as i\'m off to work, i am guessing your going to say you disagree with it all and i\'m a Nob but there you go...........

[Grizzly]

Touching on the RW throttle body that your praising so much

I was trying to give you an example of removing restrictions from the Inlet run thats proven to give more hp without touching the air temp, personaly really don\'t like RW Throttles (i have bored out stocker with a bit of air management) but the fact remains if you remove a restriction thats causeing an Air disturbance you will get a cleaner faster run and there for more power however small.