Climate Change

[Prof]

Heres another thought.
 
Are the greener issues pushed by car manufacturers?
We are persuaded to buy a new car, as it will be greener because it will be more fuel efficient.
 
However, these new cars cost in terms of Co2,
new plastics
new engines
transportation of the cars via see
batteries (they are a huge debate on their own!)
scrapping your existing car.
 
So we are doing the world a favour holding on to our ageing Rx7s despite the crap fuel consumption

I think it\'s not just cars either - most household appliances are built with designed life limits, and parts to repair them are either not obtainable or are so costly compared with replacement of the item as a whole, that it would be financially stupid to repair it.
 
I saw a printer once in Rymans - which came with print cartridges, and actaully cost less that a new set of cartridges for my existing printer - when Jo public are faced with such things - they naturally junk old in favour of new
 
As for the weather - It must be possible to control the weather in a similar way to accupuncture - by forcing some deliberate conditions at set points around the world to influence the weather conditions in ours (the side affect is someone else will no doubt end up with crap weather, but maybe we can take it in turns If I know when it\'s going to rain, I wont take holidays on those days )

[sadgoth]

Ive not yet understood why the seven estuary unit was canned...it seemed to be a great source of free energy that is completely guaranteed!

There were a number of reasons, the biggest being the ecological impact on the wetland areas upstream which are breeding and nesting grounds for a hug population of waterfowl. The area is also designated an SSSI under UK and EU law. The consultants brought in to do a feasibility study calculated that the construction costs + the mitigation costs for habitat creation for the bird population would make the project a non-starter.


While I am not either an engineer or an environmental scientist, I have worked to support the sector for 10 years. The whole CO2 debate is often taken out of context (particularly by the nay-sayers) and there is a lot of misquoting on both sides of the arguement.

That CO2 levels are increasing is a given, that since the industrial revolution CO2 output has increased dramatically is also widely accepted, that we are reducing the planet\'s ability to remove CO2 from the atmosphere by deforestation is also pretty obvious.

Now the question is what is the effect of this CO2 on climate? As Prof says, it is likely that there is some data missing from the computer models, but I would suggest that the overall premise that climatic shift can be affected by increases in CO2 has some merit.

The problem is that the zealots on the AGW side have made a rod for their own back by implying that man-made CO2 emmissions are wholly responsible for climate change, rather than an additional influencer. So if we continue to push CO2 into the atmosphere at the rate we are, it will speed up an already existing process.

H2O Vapour is always raised by the AGW deniers as some sort of "proof" that CO2 is not the culprit, but while water vapour is certainly a more efficient Greenhouse Gas than CO2, we are still adding to the overall greenhouse and that wil increase the greenhouse effect. Additionally, as the global temps rise (albeit slowly) more water vapour is released into the atmosphere increasing the greenhouse effect further. There is evidence to suggest (as Prof mentioned) that actually we are masking the true greenhouse effect by the pollutants and particulates we have released so as these reduce thanks to improvements in filtration and clean-burning technologies the true effects of CO2 will be seen.

re: renewables, I have actually been one of those to have benefitted from the wind industry, but the problem remains that without a huge amount of research into energy storage techniques we are in a situation where we are trying to create an energy industry based on intermittent power sources! Tidal power is probably the most promising renewable energy source, but for some strange reason the powers that be seem to have nailed their flag well and truly to the wind power camp.

[Competition PZ]

re new cars being green is well known BS line as the energy taken to MAKE a new car far exceeds any savings that can be returned. That energy released emissions in it\'s creation. So net loss to the planet in moving to a new car. But profit to big business
 
A few years back the US produced a publication on the total cost of a car, from the colelction of it\'s raw materials till it\'s scrapping. Will try and find it again. The Prius came out worse than most modern cars of vehicles compared Didn\'t stop all the Californians buying them for their image !!

[AtomicRex]

the powers that be

I see what you did there
 
I should have googled the development of the estuary...so thank you for that.  Understandable about the SSSI, and I certainly couldn\'t condone the interference of that.
 
Batteries are the biggest let down in the whole equation.  We have moved forward rapidly in other forms of development...but yet the battery world is yet to catch up!

[AtomicRex]

re new cars being green is well known BS line as the energy taken to MAKE a new car far exceeds any savings that can be returned. That energy released emissions in it\'s creation. So net loss to the planet in moving to a new car. But profit to big business
 
A few years back the US produced a publication on the total cost of a car, from the colelction of it\'s raw materials till it\'s scrapping. Will try and find it again. The Prius came out worse than most modern cars of vehicles compared Didn\'t stop all the Californians buying them for their image !!

And the winner was a Jeep!
 
Everything is recycled or used from parts bins!  the development of the cars is zero....and when one falls to pieces it gets recycled.
 
The number of parts that can be recycled is limited...and the whole manufacturing of the batteries has a massive footprint.  It does make me giggle that the small minded greenies only look at blinkered part of using the car!  Oh and the stuff that comes out of the wall doesn\'t carry any Co2 to make it either! :Hammer:Hammer:Hammer:Hammer

[Grant Monkhouse]

This is a subject we have banded around the office of late!
 
Our idea was mainly centred towards prisoners....but I guess the same follows for your idea too!  We could use it for the job seekers, that would be useful!
 
They would need to achieve a quota for each and everyday.  If they weren\'t reaching the quota then they get a small electric shock!  Now this obviously would come out of their quota...thus meaning they had to pedal even harder so as not to get a slightly more powerful 2nd and 3rd shock.
 
You\'d soon get a job!

Only downside I can see to using prisoners isthat they would steal the bikes and buy drugs with it, using fat people is more beneficial as if they try running away they won\'t get very far because they would be knackered or you would find them at mcds.

Fat prisoners would be good though! I think we should get in touch with the PM as were into a money winner here!

[Competition PZ]

ah but the flaw Grant is by making them pedal-for-power they become strong and fit, overpower the guards and run away.
But I have the solutino for that too .... you do not chase them. Let them go home, fatten back up over a year and THEN go bring them back.
I love renewable energies AND we might even get a government grant to produce the solution Grant

[Grant Monkhouse]

ah but the flaw Grant is by making them pedal-for-power they become strong and fit, overpower the guards and run away.
But I have the solutino for that too .... you do not chase them. Let them go home, fatten back up over a year and THEN go bring them back.
I love renewable energies AND we might even get a government grant to produce the solution Grant

I had been thinking about that, and with a fat person being undeniably greedy by nurture they will become fat again. It\'s a perfect solution, to an endless problem. He\'ll I would even put the hours in on the electrobikes to help me achieve the Greek god like physique. Lmao

And I can\'t remember who said that we don\'t get volcanoes erupting any more, what utter rubbish, if they don\'t then where did that huge ash (carbon) cloud come from last year which grounded and cancelled all flights in the uk? Because it sure as he\'ll didn\'t come out of my rx7!!!

[AtomicRex]

Because it sure as he\'ll didn\'t come out of my rx7!!!

Are you sure??
 
And if you are getting grants for this plan.....I would like some commission for my input

[TiddlesRX7]

There is no doubt about it Hydro power is the way forward. Look at the American side of Niagra falls. It generates enough power to supply New York and more daily. And thats just the smaller American side. The Canadian side is even bigger. I know we haven\'t a supply as big as this over here but, trust me we could be doing so much more as a nation than we are. I worked for the probably the biggest Hydro Turbine manufacturer in the country for best part of 12 years. I now work for the water board. I\'ve been to more sites than you can shake a stick at that are doing great things. But I still can\'t help seeing daily potential sites that could have a Hydro installation of some kind. Small or large. You could even get the farmer involved if you need to use their land for a source. The main trouble on out small (and getting smaller) island is that most of the areas where you could put an installation are part of the national parks and are therefore protected.

Oh and then there is the many many miles of tunnels/acuaducts/pipelines that supply water around our fair nation 24/7 via gravity. It seems a no brainer to me.

Ade

[Grant Monkhouse]

Are you sure??
 
And if you are getting grants for this plan.....I would like some commission for my input

That\'s fine by me, we will split it 50/50

50 million for me, 50 thousand for you. Lol

On a serious note, making our fossil fuel burning more efficient is a great idea, for me at this very moment I\'m installing units into tescos that will save up to 40% of energy used by the heating system in the store by controlling the frequency of the supply to motors. It\'s all I referring stuff and I\'m learning new things as an electrician, and the money is always a bonus.

But for the government and the media to use carbon emissions as scare tactics for us to pay more taxes is a joke, being honest would be better and I think more people would be willin to help towards creating more efficient ways to use the energy.

As for the amount of carbon in the air I watch a programme roughly a year ago where they were core drilling for ice samples in the artic or antarctic, I can\'t remember which, and through this they discovered that over the centuries carbon emissions went up and down, also they discovered that temperature increase came before the increase in carbon emissions, I found this programme really good at the time as it was the only one out of 20 programmes that gave the opposite argument, which I found funny as the scare mongering programmes always outweigh the good ones.

As for smoke coming out of my car, it only does that when it\'s cold due to the premix, so there is no way I could ground the planes due to an rx7 induced ash cloud, as I o ly get the chance to drive it on weekends. Lol.

[Competition PZ]

few points, it was me on the volcano point. The volcanoes that get talked about as producing huge amounts aren\'t active now. Our volcanoes are small fry compared to those. I\'ve some Mt St Helens ash somewhere .... and it was "small" comapred to the volcanoes of yesteryear.
 
hydro plans wont work for full scale production here becase we jsut dont have the landspace. Niagara is a natural winner, Hoover dam man made and it\'s more awesome BUT that dam is backing up the river all the way into Canada and increased the width/depth. We just dont have enough rainfall on enough land to capture enough to use for large amounts of power. BUT the idea of short term "top ups" for sure - as they are used now with nuclear pumping it up at night and call on it for the peaks. BUT when everyone plugs in their electric car at 7 at night then the peak can never be met --- the aspect of electric cars that seems to be forgotten.
 
I\'ve rallied the PZ on gravel stage and left a pretty good ash cloud on that one
Cant claim any planes tho\'
 
EDIT: THought best "evidence" the remembrance on volcanoes so .....

studies show that globally, volcanoes on land and under the sea release a total of about 200 million tonnes of CO₂ annually.
This seems like a huge amount of CO₂, but a visit to the U.S. Department of Energy\'s Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center (CDIAC) website (http://cdiac.ornl.gov/) helps anyone armed with a handheld calculator and a high school chemistry text put the volcanic CO₂ tally into perspective. Because while 200 million tonnes of CO₂ is large, the global fossil fuel CO₂ emissions for 2003 tipped the scales at 26.8 billion tonnes. Thus, not only does volcanic CO₂ not dwarf that of human activity, it actually comprises less than 1 percent of that value.

[marco]

the problem with nuclear is public perception. there are small number of existing sites that could be regenerated, but it would be a very very difficult task to get new sites developed, NIMBYism would stop most projects in their tracks. There would have to be a lot of promotion and re-education to counter the years of greenpeace and CND propaganda.

[skybusr34]

Solar panels are complete pants, in the time that you have them they only just start to pay for themselves before you have replace them, due to the life of the actual solar unit itself.

sorry not true...

i own a company called core heating. we supply and install renewables

solar (pv cells) for electricity. if you have 10k to invest in a system. you will recieve back from the government  approx £1000 per  year through the new RHI scheme. thats on top of the actual electricity you produce for your own home. and on top of that if you have a "return to the grid" system. any unused electricity you dont use the grid purchase off you.

ASHP  air source heat pumps.   these are basically air con units in reverse.. they  are pretty good for energy effencies..
 approx energy them give out  
for every 1kw of electricity to run. produce apporx 3.8kw of heat

these also are on the RHI scheme. estimated annual payback for a 3bed house appox 140m2   is near about 800 quid a  year

GSHP  these pull the heat from your back garden,  these give approx 4.5kw of heat to 1kw of electricv..  these offer  slightly higher on the RHI

solar thermal for hot wateris prob the cheapest of the bunch and a good system can produce about 80% of your annual hot water for approx 20p a day.

we are still along way off full renewable tbh but  pgetting better.

my house has solar for hot water and my underfloor heating. i heat my down stair of my house for almost free. i have an ASHP for my 1st floor heating and as back up for down stairs if the weather is bad. but over the winter so far. my heating and  hot water bill for energy has been approx 40 a month for a 3bed house with 3 adults..   my carbon foot print is very low. so i can sleep easy having a fuel burning rex:D

[Competition PZ]

sky, what are your half life for your panels ?
Friend got pulled into the grant-aided installation and the numbers they presented to jsutify him stumping up the cash were based on the panel producing at the same rate in 20 years time. Checking the manufacturers own published figures it\'s 10 years.
 
It\'s just wrong that the government supported the con and in a few years it MIGHT start to make sense ( and maybe is already if you let us knwo the panels and half-life ), but the pollution to mine the raw materials for panels is causing horrendous emissions --- just not in the UK ! Everyone is paying a little so a few can benefit.
I think the grants are ended now, but still higher return to grid pricing, yes ?
 
Solar thermal is sound science ( well not so much up here ) but still can assist main heating very effectively. Hadn\'t ever looked at using it to do underfloor, so maybe talk to you off-forum for some advice