Nitrous and Water Injection

[chrisBoid]

WOW.

That is the stuff my dreams are made of.  Having the expertise, time and money to achieve that must be incredible

I will be following this and your 4rotor project closely

[BUZNUTS]

Nitrous Oxide gas is what we normally call our little helper. When used properly it is a good safe boost to performance. A wet system is necessary and you must always make extra allowances for fuel octane limits and ignition timing retard when installing your system. A high rpm activation point is usually rec. also. If you are keen post your set up and I will do my best to point you in the safe direction. It should be no more dangerous than raising your boost levels.
REgards-Anthony

[bill shurvinton]

Wet nitrous systems are really very much old technology. In order to do NOS on a turbo \'properly\' you really need a system where the ECU is in control of

1. Fuel
2. Spark
3. Wastegate
4. NOS
5. monitoring systems (if NOS runs out etc)

You then have the ability to control things such that you either use the NOS to aid spool-up at low RPM (which only needs a 20HP or so shot), or can run a constant flow regime.

The technology is all there, just that most of the customers for NOS systems tend to come from the lower end of the gene pool thus not making research into well designed solutions profitable.

[Archbish]

why a high rev application for a turbo\'d car?  Surely nos in the lower range with a boost cutoff switch allowing the car to get into the rev range quicker?

[chrisBoid]

BUZNUTS : I am in the research stage at the moment and there is a helluva lot of research to do as any upgrade has a knock on effect to all the surrounding components, which in turn need research etc.  Rest assured, all my findings and subsequent build will be posted in full

bill : you say "wet" is old and everything should be under ECU control which sounds good.  I\'ve only heard of wet (fogging) or dry (injection) systems, how does ECU N2O work?  Is it a type of dry system?

[Archbish]

from memory the wet system is better, as the injectors could easily reach 100% once the nitrous is activated.  You\'d also need a stronger fuel pump...

[BUZNUTS]

The reason I have always used a wet sytem is to give me the ability to use different octane fuels for the N2O enrichment. Also the likelyhood of a Rotor having the ability to flow the extra ammount of fuel through the injectors is fairly low. I know there is the accuracy debate but in reality a N2O shot involves a linear ammount of gas which only requires a linear ammount of fuel to be added, Dry systems are very effective and safe for small shots but if you only require a small increase it will be far safer to add a small ammount of boost. The smoother transition of boost from a turbo rather than N2O is more gentle on your engine and easier to control possible detonation.
REgards-Anthony

[20B_boy]

Bill

With the greatest respect (and I sincerely mean that), how many big power/NOS\'d/etc Rotary engines have you built or been involved in? I respect your constructive critisism and note your valid remarks relating to the design aspects of some of the work seen on here. I am however intrigued to know what practical experience you have in these kind of applications? I appreciate that your theory is I\'m sure most accurate, I just would be interested to hear of the practical applications you have had a hand in that back up what you have to say - especially when you are talking about the work of some seriuosly well known rotary tuners and many of us arent able to split the wheat from the chaff.

The CPC manifold the other week, you basically tore apart on its \'technical demerit\'; I appreciate that theoretically a better design exists - but based on some of the motors that CPC have put together I\'m presuming that they are aware of its limitations and this is considered in the overal package. Not having built any 500hp+ rotors I\'m not in any position to say thats inadequate or this is a serious compromise - because in practise I dont know how the thing performs in Reality when its bolted in a car and setup.

Now you appear to want to suggest that Anthony (as in Rodriguez - i.e. Mr MazTech) is doing his NOS installs \'incorrectly\'; I\'m wondering the same thing - on paper you have the correct answer - but do you have any practical experience of this application with which to backup what you say? otherwise your opinions are purely theoretical, arent they? (not that theres any thing wrong with theory!)

Please dont take this post the wrong way, I\'m just interested (as a fair few people are on this forum) to hear some of your back ground and practical experience in building rotors - with which to weight the reliance myself and others might place upon your opinions.

Thanks,

[Archbish]

Mr MazTech:

the likelyhood of a Rotor having the ability to flow the extra ammount of fuel through the injectors is fairly low

ArchBish:

the injectors could easily reach 100% once the nitrous is activated

SEE!!!!  SEE HOW TECHNICAL I AM!!!!!

all bow down before ArchBish: Technical Guru, Tent King and Spiritual Leader of the Rotorheads...

[bill shurvinton]

Its all down to how you approach the system.

Do want an integrated control regime, or a core ECU with bolts ons for this that and the other from different manufacturers that don\'t communicate with each other.

I know which one I would prefer.

A wet system gives you very little control. If you approach a dry system from the point of total ECU control then you can phase in the onset of boost exactly as you want rather than a wet system which gives you either

a) nothing
b) a kick in the back and total loss of traction as you shoot from vac to 18PSI, do not pass go, do not collect £200 in about 0.3 seconds. Very good for impressing your mates on a cruise I\'m sure, but as part of a well thought out engine control strategy not the greatest.

Rich: Whenever anyone comes out with \'show me a big horsepower engine you have built\' then that means that you are no longer interested in exploring the possibilities of technology, but merely lowering yourself to a simian \'mine\'s bigger than yours\'. I have no need to prove anything to anyone. I am here to promote debate based on fundamental scientific tenets. If the lack of emprical evidence galls you then that is your loss not mine. You seem to see everything in black and white. Shame. But please do not let the limitations of your paradigm spoil things for those who do want to explore new ways of doing things.

[BUZNUTS]

Hey Guys,
I dont want to flame or cause dramas only wanting to help. My answers might not be the only ones but I give them so that you guys can consider them.  I am sure others will have different opinions that also work well.
REgards-Anthony

[Glenn Butcher]

Guys guys guys,  I don\'t think you know who Anthony is!!!!!!!  

He is the tuner of one of the fastest rotarys in the world, and many many awesome cars.

Please - take advice from this man as it is very close to being gospel!

He joined up yesterday, and I am honoured to have him on board!

[Archbish]

There are a number of N2O controllers that increment the nitrous and fuel fed through the jets from 5 to 100%, and the time taken to introduce these increments.  And they run externally to the ECU!!

[BUZNUTS]

Thanks for the kind words Glen, it is good to be involved in healthy debate, however I do not appreciate anyone assuming that my experience is not based on scientific reason. Always remember that theory is and will only ever be the foreplay to practise, and far more science is involved in the diagnosis of results rather than purely the dabbling in theory. I hope you can take this the right way and always welcome other opinions as they have historically been a source for answers to my own developments, having a differing point of view. You see it has nothing to do with whether mine is bigger than yours.jk
REgards-Anthony
P.S. Just thought you would like to know that Simon Geshcus(nispro) and myself developed the N2O control for MOTEC engine management systems and I developed it for Microtech Engine Management systems, so I am not adverse to ECU controls.

[Glenn Butcher]

No probs. matey, Rich knew who you were also

Looking very much forward to reading all your posts!  wish there were more people like you on here - but knowledge like yours is rare, so thanks again for joining up and posting.

.ps Please give us some gossip in the Chit Chat section, what cars have you been working on lately, times run etc. when you get a moment.