What apex seals are you using???

[BlitzBoy]

My main expertise is(well was until someone tried to murder me), two strokes. !!

haha you make me giggle always when you write stuff like that. :cheers

In terms of performance\\reliabilty Mazda went with 2mm Fibre ceramics in their high reving 26B 4 Rotor.

The main benefit I can see is reliabilty of a thicker seal in being a bit more robust to det in a Turbo engine.

I think the technology in the latest 2mm seals from Mazda and bendy seals from other manufacturers negates the need for 3mm IMO.

Unless someone can show me big major advantages in 3mm seals and the extra cost milling out your rotors I will stick with 2mm.

This is a good discussion lets keep it going

[Bob Monkhouse]

When I say someone tried to murder me I\'m being serious!!! I have a rather large hole in my skull where some ....er ran me over (that would be deliberately),he tried to do it with a hammer first and when I took that off him he used a car(soft .......), took him seven attempts though, I take some killing!!!!!!
 I have 8 titanium screws in my head and, with all the gold teeth I\'ve got I\'ve been sorely tempted to weigh my head in for scrap, I can manage without a brain(been doing that for over 50years so I wouldn\'t miss it) though I\'m not sure how I\'d eat my tea!!!!

[johnf]

I have 8 titanium screws in my head

Would they be 2mm or 3mm screws then.........................................one piece or two

[pigeon]

Compression can be in the same with either seal if tolerances are worked correctly.
And that is really the main criterior for these engines.
Ceramics give lower compression but wear very well in fact on one engine that was running around 430hp after 36,000 miles on ceramics there was NO measurable wear!
Our own designed apex seals are two piece as per Mazda and we can make 2mm or 3mm.
 
Het Mark,you must have a load of different dyno figures for various seals including Hurleys,Mazda,PTS,and of course differing compressions,what are your results with exact like for like motors and turbo\'s?
 
Regards
Carl

 
How much difference in compression can you see using different seals and setups. Would you aim to lower the compression of an engine to allow higher boost levels to be run safer than that of an engine with higher compression?
 

haha you make me giggle always when you write stuff like that. :cheers
 
In terms of performance\\reliabilty Mazda went with 2mm Fibre ceramics in their high reving 26B 4 Rotor.
 
The main benefit I can see is reliabilty of a thicker seal in being a bit more robust to det in a Turbo engine.
 
I think the technology in the latest 2mm seals from Mazda and bendy seals from other manufacturers negates the need for 3mm IMO.
 
Unless someone can show me big major advantages in 3mm seals and the extra cost milling out your rotors I will stick with 2mm.
 
This is a good discussion lets keep it going

What seals are you running buddy?
 
Cheers Adam

[Grant Monkhouse]

In terms of performance\\reliabilty Mazda went with 2mm Fibre ceramics in their high reving 26B 4 Rotor.

Did they not also have ceramic coated apex springs due to the increased wear
on the the normal metal springs from the ceramic seals?

Did Mazda also do a 2 mm 3 piece seal? Would these give a better seal over the 2 piece ones?

[Bob Monkhouse]

In terms of performance\\reliabilty Mazda went with 2mm Fibre ceramics in their high reving 26B 4 Rotor.
 
Did they not also have ceramic coated apex springs due to the increased wear
on the the normal metal springs from the ceramic seals?
 
Did Mazda also do a 2 mm 3 piece seal? Would these give a better seal over the 2 piece ones?

Get back to work, spending time putting posts up on this forum does not earn you money.ps. tea is nearly ready so don\'t be late home!!

[Bob Monkhouse]

Would they be 2mm or 3mm screws then.........................................one piece or two

Dunno as I might have been present when they put them in but I wasn\'t watching.! When asked if I could have one for the kids i was told \'Certainly not, they are £150 each, don\'t you think we\'ve spent enough on you\'.(3 brain ops at 15-20 Grand a throw)!! Tightwads.:Hammer

[Bob Monkhouse]

Being serious now, (just for a change), high revving piston rings are - in Jap bikes anyway,- cold drawn wire then chrome plated, Italians tend to use heat treated cast iron though extremely thin ones are wire anyway. Dunno what apex seals are, maybe an austenitic ci though again I\'m guessing. The sideseals are ci, I know this cos I broke one- der!!

[Bob Monkhouse]

How much difference in compression can you see using different seals and setups. Would you aim to lower the compression of an engine to allow higher boost levels to be run safer than that of an engine with higher compression?
 
 
 
What seals are you running buddy?
 
Cheers Adam

When talking about compression its the combustion chamber size (and not the seals) that is important.l Different types of seals \'bleed off\' compression at lower rpm\'s, at high rpm they should all seal the same, I think the important thing here is how much detonation a particular type of seal will withstand as that is what is the main enemy of the rotary engine.

[pigeon]

When talking about compression its the combustion chamber size (and not the seals) that is important.l Different types of seals \'bleed off\' compression at lower rpm\'s, at high rpm they should all seal the same, I think the important thing here is how much detonation a particular type of seal will withstand as that is what is the main enemy of the rotary engine.

 
Are there any means to lower the compression of a rotary to enable higher boost to be run.
 
But yeah thats what im really after finding out. Sure bendy seals wont wipe out your housings and rotors. But can they handle as much det as oem seals before they let go.

[Grant Monkhouse]

there are different compression rotors to choose from throughout the series of cars that have had the 13b in them. Im sure if you google it they will come up.
People also make billet aluminium rotors in the states and im sure they would be able to manufacture them with which ever compression rotors you would like, however they are very expensive and for race use only!!

[Bob Monkhouse]

The only way to lower the cr. would be to machine the combustion chambers out in the rotor, however I don\'t think you can do this on the Mazda rotors. The other alternative is to use billet rotors, you can then have whatever cr you want.
     Again, however, the rotary doesn\'y utilise high boost like piston engines, more high volume(the only analogy I can think of is jet engines, in the \'60\'s, jet engines were high pressure,low volume and the engines were long and slim. Modern jet engines are the other way round,ie. High volume low pressure. You can see this in the size of modern jet intakes).
      This is why a big turbo on say, a Skline, would be a small turbo on a rotary, I think the rotary will run 20%+ bigger turbos than a piston engine. Also you have a very long inlet period on a 4 stroke(270degrees+) whereas a rotary has around 90 ish(someone who knows more than me will be able to quote inlet timings, I\'m not too sure on that one).
 So, big volume, low(relative) boost= see yer later Mr Skyline/impreza/chavmobile!!

[damehyndman]

If I remember correctly, ceramic seals are £200 each, though I hope I\'m wrong!!

£1000 pounds fitted! If they really are as tough as old boots, then the theory is you spend a lot less on engine rebuilds. It was a large wad up front, but the economics should make sense further down the line.

If you\'re out there Mr Hayward, I need to get that ECU re-mapped, second week of April suit?

[HaywardRotary]

Are there any means to lower the compression of a rotary to enable higher boost to be run.
 
But yeah thats what im really after finding out. Sure bendy seals wont wipe out your housings and rotors. But can they handle as much det as oem seals before they let go.

OEM seals dont handle det.
We have tested our seals under such extreme det that the Mazda corner seals broke and our apex seals were still fine and reuseable.
Our seals material are also kind to the rotor housings and do not create chatter marks or unusual wear on rotor housings. We can make 2mm or 3mm apex seals and 12a or 13b or 20b. in either case they are very strong!
Compression readings and compression ratio are 2 different things.

Regards
Carl

[HaywardRotary]

£1000 pounds fitted! If they really are as tough as old boots, then the theory is you spend a lot less on engine rebuilds. It was a large wad up front, but the economics should make sense further down the line.

If you\'re out there Mr Hayward, I need to get that ECU re-mapped, second week of April suit?

That should be fine Dame.
Give me a call and we\'ll arrange.:WaveBye
Regards
Carl