IC idea, has it been done?

[m1tch]

Hey guys, im just wondering about something as I have had a look at different intercoolers for the FC, it seems that big front mouts are better for increase flow, but have lag, smaller uprated stock ones are almost as good and don\'t have lag cause of the smaller pipework, I was thinking if you could run both front mounted and top mounted, put have a vacuum acuated valve meaning for lower speeds it uses the top mount, and higher speeds switches to the front mount. I just thought of this as in my currently car (Mazda 323F with a GT engine) it has a VICS system that has a set of butteryfly valves in the intake manifold, which open or close depending if you want high torque or higher power depending on RPM, just thought I would ask if this had been done as it seems to make sense to have a larger IC at higher speeds, and the smaller but lag-less top mount for lower speeds.

[memski]

Sounds complicated dude, more to go wrong too if actuators/solonoids fail. More weight and room needed for pipework, more likely to heat soak too with the extra alloy in the bay Some run without an ic and inject methanol to keep inlet temps down, simple pipe from compressor to tb in that instance. If you\'re into reducing turbo lag porsche have variable turbine geometry which simply keeps the turbine a/r down at low engine speeds and the vanes enlarge to flow more at higher speeds - best of both worlds http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0606_2007_porsche_997_photos/vtg_turbocharger.html

[m1tch]

Ah yeah, gotta love those variable vanes lol ok I just thought I would ask about it lol is there any way you can actually reduce the lag on a FMIC? I guess you might have to run higher horsepower to warrent 1 of those against just an uprated top mount?

[memski]

Not necessarily, fmic = cooler inlet temps than smic, but with more boost volume to fill. Some run v-mounts which can put the intercooler in an almost horizontal position in the engine bay, this can reduce the length of pipework whilst having a more efficient intercooler (not blocking airflow to the rad).

Generally if you want less lag use a smaller turbo (maybe ballbearing gt), use smaller diammeter ic piping and less of it (routing), and a quality ic core. Manifold design also plays a part in it but it gets complicated here on I quite like a bit of lag, then bam the car takes off, old school and very simple: engine, turbo, and as little ancilliary crap as possible

[m1tch]

Simple is always the best I guess lol I think I might just uprate the stock core when I get mine, plus change the IC pipework to ensure the best flow, what size pipework does everyone use? I know smaller diameter means a faster flow of air but can get restricted, larger pipes mean more volume, but slower flow causing lag

[Timmy]

It makes no sence to do it as you get the worst of both worls instead of the best.
If your on the top mount at low speeds you get a problem with heat soak.
If you on the front mount at low speeds you have the lag
Than at high speeds neither should be a problem as there is enough air flow to cool the charge with either ic.

[m1tch]

Ah ok lol that makes sense now lol I forgot that a top mouted IC also was basically a vent for the really hot rotary heat lol

[Prof]

A second shutoff throttle plate or large check valve could be used to hold pressure in the intercooler and pipe work, but still allow the pressure to be let off at the turbo.  The only problem I could see with that, apart from controlling it, is that you will have \'stored\' boost in the system waiting to get through the throttle plates as soon you open them - could be a bit of a suprise. :spank
 
There are potentially other ways of cooling, but the current crop of ideas have been arrived at through much experimentation and calculation - they are the easiest, most cost effective and reliable ways to cool the charge.

[leon]

If were talking random off the wall ideas for cooling, what about using the aircon systems refrigerant to cool a lengh of pipe down? (making a larger diamiter pipe that goes around the ic pipe) i know some people would say about the weight/extra drive on the engine but couldnt you drive this by an elctric motor? and would it actualy cool things down:Thumbs-up

[Brett]

If were talking random off the wall ideas for cooling, what about using the aircon systems refrigerant to cool a lengh of pipe down? (making a larger diamiter pipe that goes around the ic pipe) i know some people would say about the weight/extra drive on the engine but couldnt you drive this by an elctric motor? and would it actualy cool things down:Thumbs-up

 Looked at this idea awhile ago - the amount of thermal exchange required would need a much larger aircon system, the result of this is that you would not gain anything worthwhile.  I\'m looking at Co2 as the way forward....

[leon]

well im glad im not the only one who gets these random ideas! Another one i got was cooling the fuel Now would that be of any benefit? :eek

[m1tch]

You can get charge coolers from deamon tweeks that have a water cooled jacket around some pipes for the air, so a bit like an inline water filled intercooler, but they are expensive lol

[Nik da Greek]

Did RE Works do a PWR chargecooler kit or something? Sure I remember seeing some featured somewhere. I think the main drawback with a front mount isn\'t so much the lag, cos rotaries produce large volumes of gas anyway, so spool up a turbo fairly quick compared to a piston equivalent, but its the fact that the IC blocks air flow to the water radiator. So, your charge is being cooled very effectively, but to the detriment of the engine cooling, which is now suffering cos the radiator is recieving already-warm air from the intercooler. And we all know not to overheat rotary engines!

[Prof]

I suppose as with all these things, there are 2 ways to reduce the charge temperature going into the engine.
 
1) Is to cool it - with an intercooler, chargecooler, water/meth injection, and any other oddball schemes that you can think of
 
2) the other way is not to heat the charge up too much in the first instance.
 
Looking at where the heat comes from - there is some transferred from the hot side of the turbo, some from the act of compressing the gas, and some comes from heat pickup in the intake piping on it\'s way to the throttle body. By far the largest amount of heat comes from gas compression - so reducing the charge pressure will go along way to reducing heat. That means running lower boost. The same volume of air could be fed to the throttle by using a larger turbo on lower boost. The 2nd most significant heat comes from the turbo hot side. Use of non heat conducting materials like ceramics could help to reduce heat transfer, as will adequate cooling (oil and water cooling), maybe even using a dedicated rad for the turbo. Insulating the pipework should help reduce heat pickup in the engine bay, although it\'s entirely possible that the pipework may lose heat to the engine bay at some times - now where was that thermal imager ?!

[leon]

Your right ive seen images of rx\'s under thermal cameras and there is an obvious glow at that side :Laugh  I know if i had an FC id be playing a lot more with experimental things as they seem to have a little more room to manovour without bringing the engine to a dangerous level.

*RAMBLE*

Has anyone submerged a small intercooler in a very cold liquid so it would act like driving on a very cold day. That i supose is on a similar vein as flooding the area around the IC with refrigerant.

and what about having two smaller IC\'s in either of the oil cooler places and a oil cooler in the middle? colder oil would help keep the general temperature of the engine down, you could run a diferant thermostat to open up at a diferant point forcing the temp down as well. but i guess the above is a bit of an odd idea as from my understanding is that if you are going for power you require large diamiter pipes with the trade off being spool, Having all that pipework to connect 2 ic\'s at a large diamiter would cause a great deal of lag wouldnt it? and i guess you cant simply engineer a bottle neck to increase the pressure can you?