For anyone still registered as 2616cc

[Martiny]

I cant hel wondering what they do about 2 stroke bikes and scooters.

Is a 50 then a 100 cc according to the DVLA???

[scooby_si]

wots crack with them then are they not boingers? Presume this is just a rotary witch hunt http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008\' target=\'_blank\'>http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_1_150.gif\' border=0>
Si

[scooby_si]

Anyway back on track got a further call today saying that he\'d had a word with fella at Mazda & that it was per an agreement between...blah blah, did i want his no.
Anyway after doing my but yer i have already supplied evidence you need wotever mazda say....He then says that that is indeed only when engine has been changed which when i said what if it has been changed before i took it he said i would need confirmation including all engine numbers etc from a garage etc. Is that a possibility or will they be able to check my engine no with mazda to confirm it\'s still a standard(ish) twin rotary?

Anyway called the mzda fella in the end who seemed to be chap who sorts out vehicle approvals & such like & did seem to know his stuff & did confirm the X2 bit was following on from the agreement with erm booger cant remember their name now not DVLA but vehicle agency or sumin (read i\'ll post proper name when i get it from my scrawlings at work....) anyway the agreement between mazda & those folks in the 50\'s & that it was something they\'d always done there after, & thus would need to have sumin sturdy to come up with a way to go against the way it\'s always been done as such. So that\'s not so promising in theory although he did say that there wasn\'t anything in writing in relation to this agreement, at least that he or anyone else could find had encountered. The only thing he could find that specifically related to the roatry was specified in some euroean thingy about exhaust emissiong etc, sounds like the thing the DVLA were previously trying to refer to, which he is going to email me (all going well..) & basically specifies in relation to emissions (& this alone potentially which sounds more promising) pistons engines will be as per the swept volume etc & rotaries will be twice that. Not word for word or 100% on that so will post more when i get it but surely if it is just in relations that shouldn\'t have any bearing on cars which aren\'t registered based on emissions but cc only?
This was the arguement when i inquired about why Mazda would want to do this & he said it was the way it had always been since the NSU RX3, 4 etc since the "agreement" & as i say the fact that it\'s always been like this is almost an acknowledgement of this being so... But in relation to looking at it more recently (Mazda) it wasn\'t anything worth doing etc as the new vehicles (or at least newest since the last UK 7\'s in 1994 were they not 1995 UK uns too?) ie the RX8 would be registered under emissions & not CC which since they clearly were bad on emissions etc they were always going to be in top bands etc........& so from theoretical point of view i\'d be stuffed trying to justify a 1.3 putting out 200bhp in 1.3cc terms anyway.
Damn it i dont want that logic the fact that it kicks a pistons ass like for like size aint my fault is it (although i wont mention the emissions of a 7 as i\'m being a stubborn narrow minded sod now so dont wana be put off by such nasty logic! lol)
I did comment on the it helps if it\'s got a couple of turbos when he was saying others wouldn\'t view it at all favourably as they know you cant get 200+break out of a 1.3 but we didnt dwell on that lol
Basically i\'ll see what it says in this european thing but if that\'s all they have in writting i\'m guna stick with being a proper annoying SOB! but just to clarify since it does relate to emissions specifically now i know cars registered after 2001 or whenever it was are registered in terms of emissions rather than cc but does this just relate to "new" cars or would it include any cars imported after that date also? Only that would also pea on my bonfire since mine was only registered this year http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008\' target=\'_blank\'>http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_2_24.gif\' border=0> So can anyone comfirm that? Otherwise i\'m going to continue being a pain...........
Si

[scooby_si]

Damn that\'s some rock solid abuse of the english language above even by my standards......lol
Si (good luck reading http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008\' target=\'_blank\'>http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/3/3_3_5.gif\' border=0>)

[Shark]

I think you\'re safe from the emissions lobby. if the car is pre 1997.
It should be based on the date of 1 January immediately before the date of manufacture of the engine.  - wonder what they do about rebuilds though...

horsepower is irrelevant.  If they left a hole in the system and think they meant to tax that it\'s their problem.  It will take them years to pass an amendment on that through the European courts.

Been onto the DFT website and got some stuff from there.  It\'s all tied in to other documents though.  You download one which refers you to another as a get out clause and I can\'t find the other to download to see if the rotary is one of their exceptions in \'the emissions publication\'.

Have managed to convince DVLa to let my local office handle everything and have go the garage doing my MOT to say they\'ll give me a letter confirming 1.3 at the same time as the MOT.  Might ask them to do me 2 letters.... 1 also stating that technically the vehicle is an Efini RX7 to get round their "you have to get this from Mazda angle"

You might also want to quote DVLA leaflet V149 (Rates of Vehicle Excise Duty) as published on their website http://www.dvla.gov.uk/forms/pdf/v149online.pdf only stating over or under 1549cc.  Utilising a commonly accepted reference to cubic centimetres and not swept volume and not making any statement to clarify the intent of the reference or any limitations.  Basically they seem to be pushing their luck.

further info is apparnetly available from form V355/1 available from local offices but not available for download on their site.

Ask them for a copy of "Vehicle Excise and Registration Act" as well.  I know it was passed as law in 1994 but I\'m sure there will be amendments to it since then, however that is what they quote in form V149

Will post next week after I see if my local office give any grief, but am still gathering ammo in case so please post if you get anything else that\'s relevant.  Such as confirmation that they don\'t actually have the fabled gentlemans agreement with Mazda on paper.

Gregor

[scooby_si]

cheers bud more ammo for my torment of tomorrow!!!!! lol
Do you have anything to confirm the emissions/registration thing can\'t be applied to my car since it was only registered in UK in 2004 although was first manufactured in 1996 ?
Si (trying to cover all bases incase they try worming http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008\' target=\'_blank\'>http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_7_207.gif\' border=0> out another way....)

[Shark]

Check out page 25 and try to work your way around.:rollin

Most is there but it refers to "the annex to \'the emissions publication\'" for exceptions not listed.
Can\'t find that though.

Enjoy...

Gregor

[scooby_si]

Right well here\'s the relevant, & only, document the mazda man could find which related to rotariers & any doubling on engine etc:

TITLE: Motor Vehicle Emissions ISSUE: 1 70/220/EEC

Sept/1997 PAGE: 5



ANNEX I
SCOPE, DEFINITIONS, APPLICATION FOR EEC TYPE-APPROVAL, GRANTING OF EEC
TYPE-APPROVAL, REQUIREMENTS AND TESTS, MODIFICATIONS OF THE TYPE,
CONFORMITY OF PRODUCTION, TRANSITIONAL PROVISIONS
1. SCOPE
This Directive applies to
? the tailpipe emissions, evaporative emissions, emissions of crankcase
gases and the durability of anti-pollution devices for all motor vehicles
equipped with positive-ignition engines
and
? the tailpipe emissions and durability of anti-pollution devices from
vehicles of categories M1 and N1
(1), equipped with compression-ignition engines
covered by Article 1 of Directive 70/220/EEC in the version of Directive
83/351/EEC (2), with the exception of those vehicles of category N1 for
which type-approval has been granted pursuant to Directive 88/77/EEC (3).
At the request of the manufacturers, type-approval pursuant to this
Directive may be extended from M1 or N1 vehicles equipped with compression
ignition engines which have already been type-approved, to M2 and N2
vehicles having a reference mass not exceeding 2840 kg and meeting the
conditions of Section 6 of this Annex (extension of EEC typeapproval). 2.
DEFINITIONS
For the purposes of this Directive:
2.1. \'Vehicle type\' with regard to the tailpipe emissions from the engine,
means a category of power-driven vehicles which do not differ in such
essential respects as: 2.1.1. the equivalent inertia determined in
relation to the reference mass as prescribed in Section 5.1 of Annex III;
and
2.1.2. the engine and vehicle characteristics as defined in Annex II. 2.2.
\'Reference mass\' means the mass of the vehicle in running order less the
uniform mass of the driver of 75 kg and increased by a uniform mass of 100
kg.
2.2.1. \'Mass of the vehicle in running order\' means the mass defined in
Section 2.6 of Annex I to Directive 70/156/EEC.
2.3. \'Maximum mass\' means the mass defined in Section 2.7 of Annex I to
Directive 70/156/EEC.
(1) As defined in Annex II A to Directive 70/156/EEC.
(2) OJ No L 197, 20.7.1983, p. 1.
(3) OJ No L 36, 9.2.1988, p. 33.


EEC

Sept/1997 PAGE: 6

2.4. \'Gaseous pollutants\' means the exhaust gas emissions of carbon
monoxide, hydrocarbons (assuming a ratio of C1H1,85), and oxides of
nitrogen, expressed in nitrogen dioxide (NO2) equivalent.
2.5. \'Particulate pollutants\' means components of the exhaust gas which
are removed from the diluted exhaust gas at a maximum temperature of 325 K
(52°C) by means of the filters described in Annex III.
2.6. \'Tailpipe emissions\' means:
? for positive-ignition engines, the emission of gaseous pollutants, ? for
compression-ignition engines, the emission of gaseous and particulate
pollutants. 2.7. \'Evaporative emissions\' means the hydrocarbon vapours
lost from the fuel system of a motor vehicle other than those from
tailpipe emissions.
2.7.1. \'Tank breathing losses\' are hydrocarbon emissions caused by
temperature changes in the fuel tank (assuming a ratio of C1H2,33).
2.7.2. \'Hot soak losses\' are hydrocarbon emissions arising from the fuel
system of a stationary vehicle after a period of driving (assuming a ratio
of C1H2,20).
2.8. \'Engine crankcase\' means the spaces in, or external to, an engine
which are connected to the oil sump by internal or external ducts through
which gases and vapours can escape. 2.9. \'Cold start device\' means a
device which temporarily enriches the air/fuel mixture of the engine thus
assisting the engine to start.
2.10. \'Starting aid\' means a device which assists the engine to start
without enrichment of the air/fuel mixture of the engine, e.g. glow plugs,
modifications to the injection timing. 2.11. \'Engine capacity\' means:
2.11.1. for reciprocating piston engines, the nominal engine swept volume,
2.11.2. for rotary piston (Wankel) engines, double the nominal engine
swept volume, 2.12. \'Anti-pollution device\' means those components of a
vehicle that control and/or limit tailpipe and evaporative emissions,

So my questions are now, or any opinions good: How well worded does that sound in relation to using this in relation to the actuall size/CC for a rotary as in it initially says this is purely in relation to emissions so surely anything within cannot be used for actual CC related matters or does the last bit i\'ve made bold mean this can be used in whatever context they like?
Thoughts please as i\'m thinking "legally" it just relates to emissions so unless they have sumin better they can sod off? Although it does specifically say engine capacity?
Any thoughts folks b4 i try my luck once again.....
Ta
Si

[Shark]

2.11. \'Engine capacity\' means: 2.11.1. for reciprocating piston engines, the nominal engine swept volume, 2.11.2. for rotary piston (Wankel) engines, double the nominal engine swept volume,

I think it basically means that if DVLA get hold of this document, everyone is knackered.  

It wouldn\'t take much to search their database for RX7\'s and up the road tax for everyone.:flamed  I wouldn\'t bring their attention to it...

Legally?  I\'m no expert but if it appeared in a contract or terms and conditions of supply (which, essentially this is T&C for suply of road tax) I wouldn\'t pursue a challenge to it with any confidence.  Whilst it may reside in a document relating to emissions, the passage is very clear on the term \'engine capacity\'.

I think you\'d have more luck challenging the fact that the V5 and road tax is based on "cylinder capacity" of which we have none so road tax should be free!!!:burnout

At least in that case you could argue that the simplest and clearest interpretation of the words are in your favour.  Always a handy tactic in legal queries.

Are you dealing with your local office?  I\'d try to find out if they have this logged at the head office in Swansea against your registration.  If not, it may be best to withdraw and try another local office that might be less aware.  Gonna try my luck next week and can let you know how I get on....  that\'s not to say that they won\'t sell me road tax at the lower rate and then send evrything off to Swansewa for amendment and then change their mind there.:eek

Gregor

[scooby_si]

I did just send it off to DVLA swansea & is a very Welsh sounding bloke i\'ve been tormenting so kinda out of luck on the local office front as it stands, unless i could try with a photocopy of WGT\'s letter wotcha reckon?
I\'m guna try the sticking to my you have the CC docs & i\'ve had nothing relating to increase (other than emissions related if pushed) & see if they can get me any legal docs in a you have sod all so wot u on about stylee see where it goes although inevitably not holding my breath........http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008\' target=\'_blank\'>http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_3_1.gif\' border=0>
Si (gets ready to emigrate incase i do get everyone 2.6\'d http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008\' target=\'_blank\'>http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/1008.gif\' border=0> lol)

[Shark]

Well. the garage doing the MOT wouldn\'t give me a letter saying it\'s a 1.3.  Damn.

I do have to say though that they were brilliant and I\'d strngly recommend them to those local to this area.
see this thread

I think it\'ll look a bit fishy if I get a letter from Pip in Cheshire (assuming he\'s happy to provide one having never seen my car!) and present that with an MOT certificate from Oxford to my local office - especially if they\'re dated within a few days!


I\'ll keep watching and see how you get on Scooby and maybe pursue if you hit success.

Course, in the meantime if you get everyone 2.6\'d it\'ll make no difference to me so I\'ll stay off the lynchmob!:evillaugh

Gregor

[leggysrx7]

..i phoned and got pip to type a short letter stating my car was a 1.3, then sent it off with my V5 document, with the highlighted changes....two weeks later new v5 document with the engine capacity as 1.3.

Marc

[scooby_si]

me jealous as if http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008\' target=\'_blank\'>http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_217.gif\' border=0> lol
Seriously how long ago was that & was it just sent to DVLA or a particular department?
Ta
Si

[leggysrx7]

it was like 6weeks ago....faxed pip the details, inc reg and then he replied with a letter, one week later. Posted it off to dvla, can\'t remember exactly where. On the changes section i wrote 1.3, then inc the letter from Pip and a cover letter just explaining the error....

...received the new v5 documents a couple of weeks later....

..sorry to make you jealous

Marc

[Shark]

Mark,
In the letter you wrote,  how did you explain the error?

Gregor