Posts ref Alarm wire blowing engines.

[Warthog]

I know thats a dramatic heading but I did it to catch your eye.

Right, pulled together here is all the posts that can be found that try to explain the problem etc.


 
Most alarms seem to cut in to the 12v supply line which feeds the ignition.

The alarm may well be off, but the original wires are still cut in to and go through the alarm system.

Several times I\'ve had cars that run fine on the dyno up to a certain rev / load point, and then the ignition suddenly starts missing.

Shove a direct 12v feed to the ignition from the battery and the miss goes.

Alarms are a very real problem on many FD\'s I\'ve tuned.

Good luck sorting your engine Richard

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 cjr

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Not sure where running lean has come from. The alarm wiring CAN cause the coils to break down and therefore not fire the spark to the plugs. Generaly this is found cars running over 300 rwhp. Also we need to remember that all the ancillarys on our engines are mostly 12+ years old!
 
  #27       IP: 82.1.224.95

12th July 2006, 11:16 PM
 

 stuart wizy

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so the origanal wire from ignition barrel to coil pack is snipped, joined to the alarm wiring and then back to the origanl wiring?
It makes sense then going from purposfull high ampage wire going down to door bell type wire and then back to high ampage wire!
the coil pack will require a high current for a good spark, and it wont get it through bell wire!!
if some alarms are wired like this then it does make sense when the engine needs a strong spark at high power
 

 stuart wizy

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back in my old pushrod n/a engine days with carburetors, a weak spark would make the engine pink and overheat, run the carb to rich and it would pink and overheat after a drive, this pinking on a turbocharged engine is detonation.
Its the same principle
 

 iaint

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My Clifford alarm allegedly disables the car via 4 different points. Something like Fuel pump, coils, injectors and something else! I can certainly see ho there could be problems from a 1mm wire vs a 4mm wire.

As for members and guests calling Max a liar in his recounting of his EXPERIENCES mapping many FDs - please back this up with something concrete.

I\'ve known Max since I first got my FD and he\'s one of the most decent blokes I\'ve had the pleaseure of meeting in the scene (and there are a lot of decent people around here). I don\'t believe he\'s dishonest or prone to exaggeration and would take what he says about this as a likely issue. Well worth keeping in view when modding our cars.

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 antnicuk

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BlitzBoy

Hopefully only the the tips need replacing, cant see why the housings will need to be changed if changed recently.

Anyway we dont know the real cause until the engine is stripped.
One failure I had was where the oil injection on the rear rotor failed and caused the tips to warp and lead to loss in compression, intially I though it was det that caused it but I was wrong , so fingers crossed for you mate that only your tips need replacing
 



if it did detonate it may have caused damage to the housings as the tip makes it way of the engine, and it may damage the turbo also.

I had an engine fail for exactly the same reason, oil injection failed and jammed a tip....

I\'m afraid pulling the engine apart is unlikely to show what killed it, if it detonated it could be for so many reasons, coils, plugs, injectors, vacume pipe, map sensor, air temp sensor, too much boost, cheap fuel, wastegate, boost controller. Unless while stripping it you find a pipe to the wastegate off or something as obvious, then you wont find out what caused it, but Richard needs to check all h can before he justs rebuilds it to ensure it doesnt happen again.

As for the alarm, its seems quite straight forward to me, all new alarm wiring i have seen is very thin, but this may not be the only problem, the alarm box that cuts the power to the coils also makes the connection to enable them to work, if this connection is made through a small circuit board then it just wont carry the current. It should be run through a decent relay.

We all know RX7s need massive ignition current compared with other cars, the stock FD ignition needs uprating over about 1 bar (generally). If your car runs rich then it will get hotter, you can see the EGT\'s go through the roof if the car is running rich and the turbo will glow red more than usual.

On the 20b FD the ignition was failing at higher boost on the rollers, so ReWorx replaced the wiring on the alarm to the coils to cure it. That is a brand new clifford.

It is so easy to kill a rotary engine running high boost, if you were building an engine would you give a warranty when the owner wants it as fast as possible and there is little knob on the boost controller next to the stereo that will tweak the boost just a little cos they think it will make it go faster and cant make that much difference............... these things arnt like a piston engine, there is no margin for error. Any changes at all to my car, and i have mapped,

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 CraigN

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As someone said the badboy clifford alarms can cut sometimes upto 4 different circuits on a vehicle to imobilise it.

The fuel pump is one i have allways asked never to have done. On my cosworth and my FD i have used a simple 4 way relay and
my own wiring and i rewired my fuel pump straight to the battery with the relay wired to the standard fuel pump wiring just to switch on the system.

I like 14v @ My fuel pump at all times previous experience with the cosworth has proved this.

Thatcham Cat1 regulations state that a circuit has to have 30cm of wire removed (or the distance between the points the alarm attatches to the circuit has to be no less than 30cm)
It also has to be soldered and insulated properly. Scotch locks and spade connectors are a disaster waiting to happen.

Again as people have said if lower quality wire is used in the alarm system (cheapo alarm or dodgy installer) and it is for example in the fuel system the voltage to the pump will drop and
it will not supply enough fuel. This i think is easier to understand than the ignition problems talked about here.

I need to investigate this as i have a HKS twin power fitted. The bodges i have found on my car since i bought it have to be seen to be believed, i have had fuel lines held on with blue anodised
hose finishers and Shells finest optimax leakign all over my spark plugs and HT leads !!!!!!

Ive allready wired the fuel pump so i will have a look at the ignition wiring and find were my alarm is wired into.

out of interes does anyone sell an aftermarket or "new" loom for a FD3s ? Again 17 year old wiring was a problem on my cossie and i had a completely new wiring loom made. A mate has a business that does just this
he supplies Mark Shead of M A Developments with looms for his Autronic setups on skylines and evos. I could ask him if he would be interested in making new looms for the FD.
 

 kev-yorks

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Quote:

maybe the guy who mapped it should have seen it? you surely would pick up on a loose / under ignition during mapping??
 

One of the down sides with rolling road tuning/mapping is you don\'t get all the variables you do on a road. I bet all you guys that aren\'t running water injection have been seeing mega high intake temps the last few weeks which also means all the ancillaries under the bonnet coils etc are much hotter than the norm which increases the load on all components. However good someone is you can\'t map for all conditions and eventualities. Even if it turns out to be the alarm wiring the extra heat in the wiring increases the electrical resistance which in turn increases the load on components causing more heat its a vicious circle.
Kevin

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July 2006, 11:45 PM
 
mattmaclennan

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Alarm/Turbo Timer/Whatever, if it interupts the wire surrounding the IGN then it\'s bad news in my eyes. I have the luxury of starting from a bare shell, I can chose the age/resistance/length/colour of my entire wiring loom, my car won\'t break because of a mass produced wiring loom fault. It\'ll be thrashing the living daylights out of it that breaks it! If you are worried, buy a new loom, have your alarm fitted properly, buy a warrenty from a company that will touch a 15 year old car. Plenty of Imports are sold with aftermarket warrentes, they amount to nothing when the motor blows and it\'s due to "lack of maintenance", and that applies to about anything that could have possible caused the engine to fail. YOU OWN A SPORTSCAR!!! THEY ARE EXPENSIVE!!!! try and have some fun in it.
 

 BlitzBoy

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I know from past experiance with different cars if an alarm is "incorrectly" fitted eg cut into the fuel pump wiring system with inadequate parts or care it will cause a voltage drop to the pump hence less fuel delivered to the engine and therefore will create a lean condition and possiable detonation.

In this case a possiablitly of being wired into the coil ignition system and causing a miss fire. So I thinks its all down to the installer and the parts used in the alarm. 9 times out of 10 an alarm will be fine, but the risk is there I think

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 iaint

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Quote:

Originally Posted by maximtaylor

Several times I\'ve had cars that run fine on the dyno up to a certain rev / load point, and then the ignition suddenly starts missing.

Shove a direct 12v feed to the ignition from the battery and the miss goes.

Alarms are a very real problem on many FD\'s I\'ve tuned.
 


This is a completely clear statement from Max. He\'s seen it a number of times where the fedd to the coils causes a problem. It could be the alarm, it could be general ageing of the loom.

I\'d beinterested to know if the people who are calling Max a liar have evidence to back that up? Has he actually never seen this problem on the dyno or are you actually wrong but not prepared to admit it?

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 Prof

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Here\'s a scenario for you:

Week spark may result in incomplete combustion, and therefore carbon buildup. Carbon buildup could result in local hotspots in the rotor, causing pre ignition. This can result in engine failure, because the point that ignition occurs is no longer under control.

Higher boost, more fuel, WI will all require a stronger spark to be sure and safe on the combustion - an ingintion amp is a safe precaution.

As for the alarms - CAT1 alarms must interrupt 2 circuits - commonly this is the fuel pump and the ignition circuit. The size of the wires used on quite a few alarms I have seen are a lot smaller than the wire that is often spliced to interrupt power to the ingition and fuel injection circuits. Smaller wire means higher resistance - higher resistance means more voltage drop. If you reduce the voltage on the primary side of a transformer or \'coil\' you will by definition reduce the voltage on the secondary. Since the voltage drop effect is effectively multiplied by the transformer, a small change in the primary will result in a much bigger change in the secondary circuit:

For example:

12 x 2500 = 30000

11.5 x 2500 = 28750


Power = volts x Amps, Amps = Volts / Resistance. Resistance is the spark gap/mixture, so assuming this is constant :

Power = Volts x Volts / Resistance

So a small change in voltage causes a more significant change in power.

These facts speak for themselves - so I tend to put some store in comments by Max and others about wiring and weak sparks.

Just my opinion....

Prof.

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A load off the original posts have been cleaned up, swo some parts are missing. Will try and find a wiring diagram image it has the main ignition wire on it with no relay in it alarms have to have a switchable device in them. This will cause a issue as spoken about earlier. As you know I did a course in microelectronics and I also have Ben who works for astrim( they build satalites) I do not lie about things like cars (I will and have lied to female friendsJ) A few points the misn ignition wire comes off the igniton barrel from the battery and goes round the front off the car to the ignitor and coils IT DOES NOT GO THROUGH A RELAY AND IT IS 4 OR 5mm Mazda did this for a reason. A alarm cuts into this and goes from 4 or 5mm down to 1mm maybe 2 1mm wires into a circuit board and out in 1mm or 2 1mm wires into mazda 4 or 5mm wire and onto ingnitor and coil.( I forget the size off the wire but it is one off the 2 sizes) Lets put it into a fishing angle

Big Carp fishing (30lb +) you have a leader say 30lb snakebite this then goes down to 20lb nylon line. We all know that the line can stretch and is good for 30+ . But you cast out 100 yards, at 50 yards you have a 1m section that has 8lb line. If you hook a 12lber you should get it to the bank if you take your time and your careful, you hit a 30lber and it takes the bait slow and just sits there and dosen’t fight you might get it in! You get a 20lber that hits and keeps going your fduked. The wire can just about take 300rwhp over that who knows down to state off coils, plugs , leads and general wiring.

On an aside when I had the motec on the fc I set fire to the car one time when I nailed it, My main power supply to ecu and coils was way to small and burnt itself and the carpet + a load off plastic on the fan. I should off known better and I did know better. My mistake and I hold my hand up freely. I won’t make it again thoughL





IF I CAN FIND ANYMORE I WILL POST THEM UP.:wiggle

[88GT-R]

Sorry to say Hog, but this is just going to carry on from the closed thread. Cry\'s like \'Why isn\'t my reply and opinion in this\' etc will only turn this subject into a farce. Can we not just let the parties involved rectify this topic themselves, and learn from whatever mistakes have happened.
Cheers,

John

[Warthog]

Just going to send you a PM mate.:Typing

[88GT-R]

:Thumbs-up Cool.....

[Warthog]

PM sent.

[richard cash]

just to add that my car blew from either this or a dodgy wiring loom. I have replaced the loom and have since taken all the imobiliser facilities off the alarm.

If anyone is worried by this alarm problem then the answer is simple. Put the cabling back to standard so the alarm is just acting as a sensor on the doors, boot and bonnet and anti hijacking features etc if you have them. Then use an alternative form of imobiliser, personally i have chosen to use a snap off steering wheel. theres nothing electrical to go wrong here and imo its better than any electronic ignition imobiliser.

[88GT-R]

Good to hear, Rich. I hope you aren\'t unfortunate enough to have to go through this again.
Cheers,
John

[88GT-R]

PM returned Hog

[Andy_k]

Just to add, i have watched this alarm problem first hand on my car.

On a hot day last summer (36c+) intake temps around 48c-50c pulled a couple of runs on the dyno (re:worx), and the top end of the power curve started to break up. Within 10 mins the alarm had been removed off the ignition circuit (now somewhere else) and another run was done without changing a thing on the power fc, the top end of the power curve was alot smoother.

I used to be a mechanic so i know what im looking at when it comes to cars.

IT IS A FACT THAT THIS STOPPED IGNITION BREAK UP ON MY CAR - END OF.

I try not to post to much on here because of things like this happening but thought it needed to be said.

[Warthog]

Richard---You may also want to get yourself a little zip up pouch and when you park her up take out the Fuel fuse EGI in the fuse box near the battery. Does the same thing no fuel no go.HTH.:Thumbs-up

[88GT-R]

........
Cheers,
J

[Newera]

I don\'t mean to continue an endless debate and if this post is seen as such, mods - please feel free to delete it. I\'m just trying to add some constructive comments here.

Having read and understood the various comments above as well as the whole original thread, there\'s one comment that is missing and for the life of me, I can\'t find an explaination!

Why would a partial misfire or weak spark on a new engine with negligible carbon build up, running lowish boost and normal engine temps have possible detonation?

The only other way we know of petrol to ignite without a spark and cause detonation is through either excessive heat and/or high compression of the mixture.

Perhaps now that Glenn has PM\'d Jeff, he can explain this and we can all know.

Miguel.

[rx7veilside]

but according to richard wasnt he driving allong normally and wasnt at top end of power curve where ign break up can be attributed to many things
his engine parameters of water and intake were ok and he was running little more than standard boost .96 i think  he quoted..ign break up may cause a slight missfire at low revs but highly unlikely it would pop an engine while driving normally..surely with such a low water temp of 85 deg which is pretty much an ideal temp with thermostat open and water flowing..had he have been ragging it surely water wld have risen to much higher temp esp if he was running a front mount and intake temp wld also have been higher

[richard cash]

i will say again though that when tim rebuilt the engine he showed me the loom and it was v. brittle around the outer plastic and also some wire going into the sensor was bare, last mm or so of wire actually where it enters the sesors. Most notably, this was the case around the crank angle sensors and if two of these touched then it wouldnt have been good. Its evident that the alarms do have an affect but it may not have bene the reason for my engine going. It would be impossible to tell. I did take the loom back with me though and on the journey home in the van from rx motors it was a normal fairly bumpy ride. when i had got home one of the sensors had fallen off!! so they couldnt have been hanging on by much

[arrouk]

wwith the alarm issue as a side point our looms are getting old now, so does any one do a replacment engine loom and if so how much?

matt