Hurley Engine Failure- Autopsy

[Jonathan_F]

ive taken an engine builder to court before with a previous car, but it is a very lengthly process. basically you need a couple of independent inspections and all receipts accumulated during the problems.  

I involved trading standards when i did and although they are powerless there are helpful with advice and will prepare all court papers on you behalf, they will also tell you whether there are any other cases against the same company which could support your claim.

The problem is even if you win you are not guarranteed to get the money back, i know a few people who have taken companies to court and then ended up taking them back to court several times for not paying. Sometimes they get away with paying you back 50p a week!

I was lucky i paid my bill with credit card, therefore the credit card company responsible so i took the credit card company to court for £1200 worth of rebuild plus any expenses during the time the car was off the road plus damages to the vehicle and they settled 3 days before after saying they would defend the claim. I got a £1900 payout.

In total it took me near on 9 months to get the money.

The court costs are £120 which you pay but get refunded if you win or settle beforehand.

That is interesting. I wish I\'d bought my car with a credit card. I may well inform trading standards. I\'ve only kept the rotors from the engine because all the other problems are circumstantial. Of course Hurleys could claim they are not from their engine etc. Its difficult isn\'t it.
Jon

[iaint]

I must say that in all this I find the using of second-hand parts for a rebuild to be worrying.  When I contacted them about rebuilds there was nothing in the emails and phone conversations that indicated that second hand/recon parts would be used.

All other builders approached discussed what could and couldn\'t be reused and what tolerences would be applied the the existing engien parts before consigning them to the bin.  I didn\'t use Hurley because of telephone attitude but that was a personal thing rather then based on bad reports.

In the end WGT used new housings and end plates due to wear and I have a strong engine - doubt it\'d eb as good with worn parts used...

[Jonathan_F]

I must say that in all this I find the using of second-hand parts for a rebuild to be worrying.  When I contacted them about rebuilds there was nothing in the emails and phone conversations that indicated that second hand/recon parts would be used.

All other builders approached discussed what could and couldn\'t be reused and what tolerences would be applied the the existing engien parts before consigning them to the bin.  I didn\'t use Hurley because of telephone attitude but that was a personal thing rather then based on bad reports.

In the end WGT used new housings and end plates due to wear and I have a strong engine - doubt it\'d eb as good with worn parts used...

I actually tried to use Hurleys to get me the new parts I needed (Plates and Housings) and Mick said they never buy new parts so he couldn\'t give me prices. His prices came in good in the end so they must have some buying power with Mazda. They offered no help when I said the rotors were incorrectly machined etc. Looks like they make a massive profit from a £2.7k engine.The chap who paid for my engine was also under the impression they would be rebuilding his own engine. I would say they used bits from a number of different engines. Difficult to prove as always.
Jon

[John Yorke]

I wonder if Hurley\'s rep abroad is for the parts they sell rather than the engines they build? The reason for this question is, on the boards abroad [Aus / States] their rep is second to none, yet here, they cant do a thing right. I am quite supprised they have not asked for a thread removal like most other \'bad\' threads on vendors, maybe they dont need MRC to make a living??
Jon, your report was very informative, unlike the most of us you have access to equipement that can paint a very discriptive picture, anyone with a grievence against a builder / tuner should be well advised to follow a similar path :wave

[oldone]

This has been an interesting thread so far....a few questions have come to mind,when the engine rebuild estimate\\quote was given...was it in writing or just general discussion ?.Was the rebuild go ahead given after the customer had a detailed desription of what was broken in the original motor ?.Was it ever said that new parts would be used in the rebuild or did the customer ask for the total price to be as cheap as possible (budget rebuild) ?.Tese are general questions to all who have posted.....
To be honest it seems that quest for absolute perfection is maybe getting a bit OTT.So it would be interesting to see the motor that the engineers are going to build,I would dearly love to see it and to feast on the absolute engineering skills presented (so I can be educated)and the performance such a motor will give. :guinness  :Talking1  :cheers

[Jonathan_F]

This has been an interesting thread so far....a few questions have come to mind,when the engine rebuild estimate\\quote was given...was it in writing or just general discussion ?.Was the rebuild go ahead given after the customer had a detailed desription of what was broken in the original motor ?.Was it ever said that new parts would be used in the rebuild or did the customer ask for the total price to be as cheap as possible (budget rebuild) ?.Tese are general questions to all who have posted.....
To be honest it seems that quest for absolute perfection is maybe getting a bit OTT.So it would be interesting to see the motor that the engineers are going to build,I would dearly love to see it and to feast on the absolute engineering skills presented (so I can be educated)and the performance such a motor will give. :guinness  :Talking1  :cheers

Oldone - Yes. Its often the fault of the customer for not tying down the details in a bill of sale or receipt.
No search for perfection here. Thats a road to nowhere. Just a search for THE TRUTH!
And a passing of information to help others. I have no grievance.

John Yorke - I hope this thread is not removed as I am only relating factually what has happened. The sump is a bit suspect as someone could of jacked it up on the sump..hugely unlikely as previous owner is an engineer and used to own a garage and the car has only been to WGT and they are not likely either.

[oldone]

:cool  :Typing  :cheers  :guinness

[Jonathan_F]

:cool  :Typing  :cheers  :guinness

 :cheers

I\'m loving your retro cars too. Oldschool is the term.

 :mmmm  :guinness

[oldone]

 :Thumbs-up  :driving

[Jit]

The search for the truth is often masked by the tuners though...sometimes, the tuners simply will not reveal the TRUE specification of the rebuild and will in some cases go completely out of their way to mask what work has or should we say hasnt been done. Until the engine is torn down, no one will know, BUT as Jon has said, a tuner can simply turn around and claim that any worn or out of spec engine component you wave in thier face simply didnt come from their engine.
Getting another tuner to strip your engine down for you as an independent witness would hold no legal weight since another tuner is rarely ever independent in the true sense of the word.
I dont think I could ever fully trust any tuner ever again which is why i feel the need to do work on cars myself. Ive also found to my detriment how politics between tuners can cause a witch hunting effect amongst some tuners, particularly within this community. Some people here might not have a clue to what i mean...and in their case, ignorance truly is bliss and should remain that way - dont even try speculating! Others on here do know the point Im making and possibly more specifically who this broadside is aimed at - Im sure these people would probably agree with me.

[oldone]

To lay claim\\responsibility to any motor I lay my hands on and tear down and assemble...I actually stamp my name on the bits i work on.i.e rotors,crank,housings (on the belly) etc.The reason is...when somebody strips the motor,they can see where it comes from or who worked on it.I am not ashamed of the work that has gone into it.I am not a vendor\\tuner,however proud of what i do,good or bad. :cheers

[Jonathan_F]

after i rebuilt my engine i changed the oil @50 miles,it was black,if you didnt watch him put the oil in how can you say it was old oil,

oil mixed with soot from the exhaust could make itlook dirtyer also

Its a judgement call bassed on ten years building engines and playing with oily bits.

There is plenty of oil left in the oil coolers to blacken the oil but it takes many a mile to get the oil into the state I saw. The oil was pouring out by the cup full. Not enough soot in the exhaust to effect it.

I bumped into someone from Hurleys at RS3. Mick\'s banned them from talking to me..my cover is blown!! :Talking1

[Jonathan_F]

So..back to the engine!
Point 3. The worn housings..use of second hand parts and lean running would of caused this.
Point 4. Use of old rotors from failed engines.
Point 5. Just incorrect machining by Hurleys. They machine their own rotors they tell me.
Point 6. Hurleys make their own corner seals. IMHO and from what other tuners say these cause problems. They are soft and in my case, the diameters were undersize allowing tipping.
Point 7. I’m not sure why the seals were worn like this but one tuner has told me that he has bought in the past Hurley seals that are too wide and never seal properly unless shortened.
Point 8. Low oil pressure caused by blocked pickup would of caused oil film breakdown under heavy load and worn bearings. Lean running means high bore pressures-speeds up wear also.
Point 9. Just use of poor parts by Hurleys.
Point 10. Overheating and cheap components caused the hardening â€" car was using alot of oil because of this.
Point 11. Low oil pressure would of lead to poor rotor cooling. Burst pipes also caused overheating on three occasions. A catalogue of problems. Lean running would not of helped.
Point 12. Blocked pick up would of left pump cavitating badly. This causes shockwaves and large strain which chattered the shaft keys almost to failure. And wore the chain no doubt.
Point 13. Sump damage was due to the engine being dropped ( no scratches from driving and no sump guard to hide them)
Point 14. This is the disturbing one as I suspect someone put this piece of paper into the engine on purpose to cause failure. Somewhere along the line at one of the places the car was taken to.
Point 15. Wrong stud fitted at WGT or by previous owner.
Point 16. Hurleys fitted the engine and obviously didn’t tighten all the bolts properly.
Point 17. Low oil pressure again.
Point 18. Blocked pickup (see point 12)

So quite a few nasty problems.

Whilst reinstalling my new engine I fitted a Sard pressure regulator. I found that the Walbro pump I have bought and fitted was not able to produce any more than 42kg/cm2 and at this pressure it was fluctuating wildly.
This means that I have been running the car incredibly lean for many weeks. My advice to anyone that fits a new pump is to have the pressure checked properly. Don’t assume it is correct. I’ve ordered a new pump but the suggestion is the filter may be blocked ( it was changed 1 year ago so i doubt this). I’ll let you know. The standard pump can hold 60kg/cm2.

So I bought another engine for the sump, oil pump and new irons that it have a a couple of new housings from WGT. Total cost 2k so far. I ported the lot using my engineering judgement and integrated every single mod I could find to improve reliability. These were:
No front gasket to stop ‘o’ ring walking away.
Shimming oil regulators
Grooving housings around combustion area to increase surface area and improve cooling
Porting every single component from HKS hardpipes to exhause pipe.
Removing secondary butterflys.
Removing air pump
I opened the primary injector bores up to prevent the spray pattery being obscured (should of checked it really)
Polished the rotor faces and slightly reduced the compression ratio (should of measured it to find out by how much) (could of done with getting them zinc plated after as well)
Balanced the rotors as a pair

The engine started first time but the news isn’t good. I’ve been a bit of an impatient idiot and run the engine under boost befor Pip’s mapped it. I’ve lost compression on the front rotor  (down to 4.2 even across the three)
Schoolboy error but its gotta come apart again. DOH!

[oldone]

Very interesting post J,its always good to read an enthusiastic,enquiring and experimental engine rebuild thread.One word of caution maybe if I may,be careful of \'over engineering\' a project all in one go.I can see where you are going with your engine rebuild and good for you... :cheers

[Jonathan_F]

Very interesting post J,its always good to read an enthusiastic,enquiring and experimental engine rebuild thread.One word of caution maybe if I may,be careful of \'over engineering\' a project all in one go.I can see where you are going with your engine rebuild and good for you... :cheers

Cheers pal. I need the encouragement to be honest. I\'m broke, tired and my girlfriend is not happy...

How many other people are like this??!!