Best Pads For Standard Disc\'s & Best Pads For Standard Disc\'s

[fro]

Rich, what mintex compound are you using? 1155?

I\'m not sure I\'d recommend Hawk pads for road use (or at all). Certainly not the combination I\'m using at present anyway.
I have Hawk black pads with new black diamond discs at the front. After only a week of road use, the discs are very badly scored. Worse than anything I\'ve ever seen after such little use.
It looks very likely that I\'ll have to bin the discs when I change pads (if they even last that long). Has anyone had similar experiences?

[Mazdarotaryparts]

Hi Fro / Ken and all,

This thread is getting a little confusing all over with pads causing soft pedals and now pads scoring Discs :confused:

I cant really see that new pads can score Disc\'s unless they have broken up  :confused:

Although none of us know it all, the reason l have posted this is because if l am confused by these comments after being in the Motor industry for 33 years and Racing for around 20, then folk reading this thread who know little about cars will be confused even more !!!


Here we go with a few things then.

Soft pedal is normally caused by air in the system.

A brake pedal\'s "feel" can be improved by fitting braided steel hoses, because stock rubber hoses balloon slightly when pressure is applied within them.  

A Disc will normally only score really badly if the pad material disappears letting the metal backing contact the Disc.

Brake "fade" is often banded about but few people in my experience have experienced proper brake fade.

Brake fad comes about by the brake pad over heating and losing its friction capabilities, picture sliding something hard across a piece of glass to give you an idea of grip when brake fade takes place.

Now picture putting your foot on the brake and the car NOT slowing at ALL, now that\'s proper brake fade !!

Fade is also sometimes accompanied by a lot more pedal travel due to the brake fluid actually boiling in-side the callipers, hence the reason for upgrading brake fluid to a better quality "Race" fluid  

Things I have found with Brake pads on FD\'s,

If you just want a better quality pad with no track days and a pad that will keep you nice rims clean then Black Diamond pads are the pads for you.  

With Hawk pads (HP+) bewarned that when you fit them to the front and bed them in you will immediately feel like Michael Schumacher with the way your FD now stops, BUT you will now find three things with these pads, A, they WILL make your wheels very dirty, and B, they WILL fade under prolonged hard use even on the road without letting them cool properly, and C that they are very "grab and stop" under hard braking providing little feed back of "feel" to the driver .

Having said all that, Hawk HP+ are fine on the front for the road providing you don\'t drive hard and don\'t mind the dust.

We have found that if your doing Track days then the combination Black Diamond Disc\'s,  Hawk HT 10 for the front and HP+ for the rear is a very good set up for an FD or an FC, without going to the expense of Big brake kits that often require major modifications to the brake system to make them perform properly.

You may now be wondering why l am now saying HP+ for the rear, this is because with the HP+ being a softer pad that the HT10 it means that you alter the "brake bias" to give more grip to the rear which on an FD it will stop the fronts locking quicker than the fronts and make the car more stable under braking into corners, especially if you are braking whilst in a bend.

BTW the term Brake bias is used to describe the proportioned level of grip of the braking system between the front and the bake of any vehicle.

Perhaps Rich can shed more light on Mintex on an FD but from my experience with the 1155 brake compound, (from memory I used this in one of my race cars)  it is very much a "race" pad with very little cold stopping capability that squeals like mad, something a lot of customers will not put up with.

None of the above is intended to be a grumble, but it scares me that people may getting wrong info, which is worrying especially when you think this thread is about brakes!!

I have no doubt that some of the "Internet technicians" giving advise or selling stuff out there with no experience of "hands on" real life stuff out there can find variations or different descriptions of what l have described, but please bear in mind the comments that even if my comments l have made above read a little wrong, they  are what l have been found through fitting these parts and the seat of my pants and not from a book or the internet !

[fro]

Yeah Clive, you\'re right about the 1155s. I\'ve used them on a circuit racing alfa 33 and they were superb but they were very wooden until completely up to temperature. I\'ve used 1144 compound in the past which is probably a better comprimise for the road, though they still squeal.
Sorry for hijacking the thread with the scored discs. The only time I\'ve experienced this in the past, it was due to defective discs (on the alfa again) and I\'m wondering if this is the case again, or if the pads are stupidly abrasive.
Would you prefer if I started a new thread?
Cheers

Rob

[Mazdarotaryparts]

Hi Rob

Thanks for the info, please leave the thread alone as hopfully its now become an informative " brake" thread.

[banned advertiser]

Black Diamond are an ok street pad but not as good as the hawks, lots are using them and most use hp plus on the rear and ht10\'s on front. I think having used them ht10\'s are a bit harsh but very good, and would recomend hp plus rear and either blacks or blues on front, both track pads but not as harsh as the ht10\'s.
All in stock (inc black diamonds) here.
http://www.rotaryart.uk.com/acatalog/Black_Diamond.html

or

http://www.rotaryart.uk.com/acatalog/Hawk_performance_pads.html

So as said by Clive and what I quoted earlier is about right. There is a Hawk compound guide here, look at Blues or Blacks as they are not as ha HT10\'s and have a better heat range for fast street.

http://www.rotaryart.uk.com/acatalog/Hawk_performance_pads.html

Perhaps move some of the posts to new thread if you start one fro.

[fro]

I have Hawk black compound front pads with Black Diamond rotors (combi).
After bedding in according to the pad instructions (6 medium stops / 6 hard stops with brake ducts sealed, not coming to a rest) I have very heavy scoring of the disc. In addition to the bedding in, the picture below shows the scoring after a couple of hundred of normal road driving (no hard stops).

It\'s difficult to judge the scoring from the photo but it\'s quite nasty. If you run a fingernail down it, it will catch.

Has anyone experienced similar problems before? At the current wear rate I\'ll have to change the discs before the pads  :eek
With the current scoring I will probably have to change the discs when the pads are changed.
Cheers

Rob

[FD3SNuttah]

didnt get this problem when i had my black diamonds., get rid of the hawk pads, buy some green stuff or predator (black diamond) pads. what do the pads look like? are they badly scored as well?

[20B_boy]

Perhaps Rich can shed more light on Mintex on an FD but from my experience with the 1155 brake compound, (from memory I used this in one of my race cars)  it is very much a "race" pad with very little cold stopping capability that squeals like mad, something a lot of customers will not put up with.

TBH, I thought they were M1166\'s - I will check. I am also now using RZ/RS discs btw. May be my car is a funny, but I have had NO squeal from them that I can recall. They are dusting at a reasonable rate I think also. They were pretty good at the Ring last time altho no comparison to Phil or Max\'s biggies obviously. See how they get on next month. I think they cost a bit more than Hawks tho. I havent personally driven Hawks in my own cars for a while now and will be sticking with Mintex (or some thing bigger all round) for now unless the next set is completely different!

[MikeLMR]

I don\'t know if I\'m talking non-sense here but I think thats pretty normal ... I\'ve certainly seen it plenty of times before on cars I have worked on and none had any problems with brake judder  :confused: or any adverse affects

What exactly is the problem ?

[clive]

I feel now this thread should become an informative thread about brakes in general and not just a "selling" one particular brand thread purely about upgrades, after all, unless people know the basic\'s how can they make informed judgements on what is best for their car and particular driving style.


We should all bear in mind that different drivers and applications need different types of brake systems and possibly different types of manufactures products and  this has now become an important thread when you consider also the safety aspects involved.

I now welcome different peoples experiences of the many different brake products available particularly for the FD but also all other Rotary\'s including the RX-8 for which there are already different types of upgrades available.

[Rene7FD]

Were only the pads new, or the discs too?
With pads new only, the method of bedding in is correct.
But with new discs you should brake very gently for the first 100 miles or so.
(Btw, with new discs, also put new pads on)

[iaint]

I\'ve got the same discs and Hawke HT-10 pads and haven\'t noticed anything like this on them.  WIll go check for sure in a bit though.

Just checked - there\'s a little very light scoring but nothing that would cause any concern to me.  Just enough to feel it with the nail, almost feels smooth to the fingertip.

[Fish]

Are Hawk Blacks a race compound?

Fish

[fro]

Are Hawk Blacks a race compound?

Fish

They\'re classed as a all purpose race pad. In reply to an earlier question, both discs and pads are new.
I\'ve not had to treat new discs gently in the past. I\'ve put new discs on and literally gone straight out into race qualifying with no problems :rollin

[fro]

I don\'t know if I\'m talking non-sense here but I think thats pretty normal ... I\'ve certainly seen it plenty of times before on cars I have worked on and none had any problems with brake judder  :confused: or any adverse affects

What exactly is the problem ?

The problem is, when I come to replace the pads, the discs will have to be binned or skimmed. If this is normal with Hawk pads (and after a bit of research on rx7club it may be) then I\'m not sure I\'d buy them again.