Eu

[lockwood77]

Well I studied the foundations of the EEC/EU as part of my degree, perhaps that gives me a bit of knowledge? How about you?

Biased, yes - isn\'t a political view by definition biased in the sense that you mean it?

You seem to support protectionism from your comment about Bombardier, a policy that has been shown to produce negative results for any country indulging in it over the years. You take that view and your export market goes up in smoke as every other country retaliates. Usually goes hand in hand with xenophobia...

I certainly come from a socialist standpoint, but at the moment I wouldn\'t call myself a Labourite at all as I am completely disillusioned with the lot of them. I want the Tories out, but I\'m afraid at the moment I can\'t offer you a great alternative - all I know is that with them at the helm, things will be worse than they could be (but they would still be bad). Not a terribly optimistic or positive viewpoint, but I can\'t see any chinks of light in politics at the moment.

I\'m not terribly sure we do still have a seat at the EU Treaty table from what I\'ve read and if we do, exactly what influence will we have now that everybody else knows we\'re not part of it?

On balance I really don\'t know what I think about Europe any more, but the fact is we\'re part of it and we should have every involvement with any changes up to the point of a final decision, and then we can choose whether we want to be part of it any more. We just look like children throwing our teddy out of the pram to the rest of the world - you only have to read what all the American commentators said about it, and they\'re hardly the most socialist country in the world - they think it\'s analogous to communism!

[jetpilot]

Well I studied the foundations of the EEC/EU as part of my degree, perhaps that gives me a bit of knowledge? How about you?

At the point you didnt know we still have a seat at the table re the discussions im not sure how valid your above statement is.

From my limited understanding and not having studied it, from what i have seen and heard through various experts opinions, the vetoing of the treaty was the correct decision for the country and will be beneficial in the long run.

I am not interested in an "EU" and never have been, a system where by countries could effectively "fake" their status by borrowing huge sums of money is massively flawed because no one actually did proper checks of their accounts! As others have mentioned, unelected beurocrats justifying huge salaries to make decisions is flawed! A single currency, flawed, economists warned of the failures of this and no one took notice and now look at it!

And what does it cost to run the EU, 120 Billion i think i read? Who\'s paying for that, not the countries in massive debt thats for sure!

I am sure in principal the concept works, but as we all know from modifying cars, often something that works on paper couldnt be further from fact in reality!

[Ada7]

Bombardier have played very heavily on how hard done by they were in losing the tender for supplying further units of class 377 traction rolling stock to the Thameslink project. They have made great stock in the press about how this means massive redundancies for the workforce at Derby and they are the last British rolling stock manufacturer. They also allege they have missed out due to government procurement obligations that force them to source from other EU companies (in this case Siemens from Germany). There are a few innaccuracies and exagerations in these claims, not to mention downright untruths.

Firstly, they embarked on a tender for contract. They put in a weaker tender than the rival firm, and therefore lost. That\'s how it works. Companies are awarded tender contracts on the strength of how able they are to fulfill the criteria, not on a complacent reliance on having already produced stock for that client in the past, nor, as Bombardier did, offering a loss-leading tender on a parallel contract as a sweetener (the replacement of signalling equipment throughout the South East network).

Secondly, Bombardier are in no way a British, or even UK company. The Derby works is a tiny subsidiary of one of the most massive global concerns in transportation manufacture. Their primary concern is the production of Lear jets, their rail franchises are a small part of their business in comparison. They are also, if any multinational can be considered to originate from anywhere, Canadian. Therefore Siemens have won out as an EU company over a foreign one.

Thirdly, Bombardier had already announced extensive job losses in the Derby works even before the tender was put out by the SRA. The difference in numbers pre and post failing to secure the contract has been about 200, rising from 1200 redundancies to 1400, so they have attempted to hide in the press their already advanced plans for laying off workforce behind the loss of the Thameslink contract.

Fourthly, their trains are wretched, badly designed, shoddily built, poorly executed, outdated, unreliable, power-hostile, inefficient pieces of utter rubbish and the Siemens ones are everything Bombardier stock is not, they are in fact the best metro-intense stock available. They deserve not only to lose the contract but to never be allowed to manufacture rolling stock again. Awful trains, without redemption in any way.

Hope this helps. Just thought some clarity could help the argument there. Don\'t believe everything you read in the press lol.

Oh, and Lockwood\'s bang on, Cameron\'s "veto" (which abstinance is not, by the way; veto means stopping something happening, not excluding yourself from the procedure that then happens anyway as if you never existed)... was nothing to do with protectionism and everything to do with him trying to excercise his political muscle in what he saw as an opportunity to prove his machismo. Unfortunately, it\'s blown up right in his face, he looks a complete fool left out of the playground gang, and he has split what little cohesion remained to the Coalition whilst utterly marginalising the UK in Europe. Top day\'s work. Not

Anon

[jetpilot]

Thanks Ada, a very helpful understanding of the Bombardier situation!

I am firm believer of quality over price and also getting the best deal, i have to be in my trade!

Hence this is probably why we have such a poor manufacturing industry these days!

I dont agree with your comments however on being on the outside of Europe, from the experts i have seen on political shows, they have concurred its a good thing!

[Will66]

Cheers Nik

Personally I think that Party Politics should be banned as any meaningful discussion on the running of the nation is mired in political name calling and pointless party based point scoring.

[lockwood77]

At the point you didnt know we still have a seat at the table re the discussions im not sure how valid your above statement is.

As I said, when I wrote that I wasn\'t sure we did have a seat at the table and this rather underlines my point: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a3e5eff4-2741-11e1-b7ec-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1h1FrBRK3

"Observer status" is hardly a negotiating position now is it?

From my limited understanding and not having studied it, from what i have seen and heard through various experts opinions, the vetoing of the treaty was the correct decision for the country and will be beneficial in the long run.

I can only assume you read the Sun/Mail/Express/possibly the Telegraph/watch Sky News (aka Fox News). I\'m not sure anyone is an expert on all this, everyone is making predictions but it\'s not exactly something the world has seen too much of before. Only time will tell and it will be a long while before it all pans out.

The Bombardier stuff is interesting, shows you how people spin things politically for their own ends regardless of the truth. Nothing new there!

[Alfred]

I am up to speed on his recent veto. He hasnt vetoed the Euro or being part of it, he has vetoed the bail out package and more so the sanctions ze Germans are trying to put on financial sectors and seeing as that is now our biggest industry he stood firm to them as it may put that at risk!

It is not our biggest industry - although David wants you to think it is (the City now provides HALF of all Tory party funds). What other "big industry" has the British taxpayer shelled out £289bn in "direct upfront financing"  to prop up since 2008? Add in the various government loans and  underwriting, and taxpayers are on the hook for £1.19tn.
It is merely our most powerful industry, with massive influence over the politicians. And David didn\'t go to war in Brussels for the whole industry, only the investment bankers who nobody trusts to do a good job any more.

In terms of jobs, our faltering manufacturing industry still employs 2m people - the finance sector employs 1m people and in the big banks, 80% of staff work in retail banking.
In terms of tax, from 2002-2008 (during the last boom in the City), the financial sector paid £193bn in corporation tax - around half the £378bn paid by the manufacturing sector.

It\'s a common misconception that the financial sector is our biggest industry nowadays, but it is myth, propegated and perpetuated by politicians for sinister backroom reasons.

The most depressing part is that the Labour Party\'s recent history is one of giving the City whatever they want, so we have no domestic parliamentary alternative. Now David has "protected" the City bankers from European fettling there doesn\'t appear to be anywhere left to add much-needed regulation to the gung-ho traders.
The bankers have won. They run the country now.

[jetpilot]

"Observer status" is hardly a negotiating position now is it?

Pointless discussion as you obviously feel your opinion and views are in higher regard as you have done a degree!

I shall watch the news or political documentaries no more!