OK for those who might know, what temps would you map to on a rotary?
I used to map to circa 850c POST turbo on my cortina but I have a change to fit two EGT sensors pre turbo, one per port. I know that the rear rotor is most likely to see hotter temps, but not by that much.
Should I be looking at circa 900-950c?
Thanks
Fish
Guess those that know, are not willing to share information. :(
Now posted on a couple of other forums.
Fish
Danny,
Temps approaching 900C on a piston engine are generally seen as a bad thing, even with a few trick bits (forged pistons etc). The temp in the down-pipe isn\'t going to be significantly lower than post turbo.
Pre turbo is obviously going to be hotter than post but maybe (probably?) not more than 25C due to the speed of the gasses. There may also be a drop in temp on the exit side as the pressure may be lower after the turbine.
I would guess that noone has got round to measuring that bit on a FD in the UK yet? Either that or you\'re right and they\'re not willing to share that \'commercially viable\' info!
Maybe once you\'ve mapped the beastie you can let us know what the temp differential accross the turbos is? :D
Iain
Iain, I have had one reply offline, which I am a little upset about.
I thought the whole idea was to share niformation.
Post turbo temps can be as much as 50c less in past tests on the cortina\'s.
But yes once mapped I WILL be posting temps that I am running.
Fish
I think you\'ll find that very few people in the UK know what TIT should be on a rotary, partly because few people tune using EGT these days and partly because most EGT probes will last about 2 minutes in the exhaust of a rotary.
As TIT is a function of ignition timing as well as AFR it adds some complexity to rolling road tuning, as on many rollers you cannot hold power for that long due to heat soak. On an engine dyno its a completely different ball game...Hands up those who have put a 13B on an engine dyno in the UK?
However the other rotary forums have some good stuff on EGTs
QuoteOriginally posted by Fish
Iain, I have had one reply offline, which I am a little upset about.
I thought the whole idea was to share niformation.
Post turbo temps can be as much as 50c less in past tests on the cortina\'s.
But yes once mapped I WILL be posting temps that I am running.
Fish
I did gladly share the info with you as one of my customers.
I just don\'t think it should be bandied about for all and sundry to see or know, especially other tuners/other tuners customers.
Sorry if that is not good enough.But I think as a valued customer I was prepared to let you know.Why should everyone know everything all the time about how to do everything that has taken some of us years to learn?
Also the old adage "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing!" comes to mind all of the time.Many informative post\'s do not put up the complete information or to the other end of the spectrum they over complicate the issue and then confuse things.Information overload becomes the thought.for some this could easily lead to creating problems for themselves.
I see many people reading info on here and other boards and only ever understanding half of it,then they get completely the wrong end of the stick.
That can\'t allways be helpful.
Also if someone reads this and then goes to their tuner or builder and they insist that the criteria given for exhaust gas temperature be stuck to cos Carl say\'s so, then their engine subsequently blows up where does that leave both my reputation and the other tuners?
Also as Bill has said,the EGT probes do not last long with the rotaries fiery breath.
I don\'t really know why you should be upset over this and very suprised.
Kind regards
Carl
I agree with Carl here, its all well and good sharing the information with people who are going to use it for themselves, but some people would want to make a profit on what they gleaned.
Look at the thread marked \'FAO:Brett\' in the 2nd gen section, I bent over backwards to give him lots of usefull information and I dont have a problem with that as none of it was \'black art\' stuff, but when it comes down to info that could potentially loose a popular company(ies) money then I feel it should be restricted.
BTW if InitalD is reading this, (Not mega poster initial-D, the other one) did you actually read that thread? A response of some kind would have been appreciated!
QuoteOriginally posted by IainT
I would guess that noone has got round to measuring that bit on a FD in the UK yet? Either that or you\'re right and they\'re not willing to share that \'commercially viable\' info!
QuoteOriginally posted by Carl
I did gladly share the info with you as one of my customers.
I just don\'t think it should be bandied about for all and sundry to see or know, especially other tuners/other tuners customers.
Looking at my intial comment I realised it could be taken as a criticism of a Tuner not sharing the info - the single-quotes make it look a little sarcastic - not my intention!
Was going to write more about this but suffice to say commercial info is exactly that and some people on here make their living from what they\'ve invested tinme and money in for many years.
On tyhe plus side - Danny has the info he needs courtesy of Carl and I\'m looking forwards to seeing the results of the tuning. Finding temp sensors that can live in that environment could be fun!
Iain
The sensors I am using are rated to 1100c, so should be able to handle what a rotary puts out. This is going by what figures I have been told. You knows its all secret squirrel around here. ;)
Bill, as for engine dyno\'s, when Carl was building my engine I asked who else would be interested and no-one came forth. Thus making it stupidly expensive to do it.
This in conjunction with the Techedge WB02, should see good results.
Fish
QuoteOriginally posted by Fish
Bill, as for engine dyno\'s, when Carl was building my engine I asked who else would be interested and no-one came forth. Thus making it stupidly expensive to do it.
Fish
I think that realistically there are only three ways this is likely to happen:
1) Private individual with pots of cash decodes to have the full works on an engine and gets it mapped on engine dyno.
2) Tuner decides to do it to develop a number of cutting edge base maps in controlled circumstances.
3) Race team does it to enter a car in a series that would demand this level of development.
1 won\'t happen as a we\'re all skint from running FDs and lottery odds are steep! Benefits might not be that great over rr or \'road\' mapping for a single case.
2 is unlikely to happen unless a large company comes into the rotary scene as I can\'t imagine that any of the tuners have that much cash floating round to invest. Return on the cost may not be worthwhile.
3 is unlikely to happen as, as far as I\'m aware, there aren\'t any race series in the UK that are likely to be rotary friendly requiring that level of evelopment. Plus a race engine wouldn\'t compare well with a street ening would it?
Maybe scenario 2 is more likely though but it\'d still need fine tuning in situ...
Pending where your techedge is, I would put your EGT probe next to that, as the controller cannot handle temperatures above 800C, which can be seen in the downpipe.
There are heatsinks available to get around this problem, but first you need to know if you have a problem. The techedge only has 2 limitations for the tuner. 1 of those is that there is no overheat alarm, so you just get wrong answers if you do overcook it
Bill, the headers are already drilled and tapped, so that’s where the sensors will be. The Techedge is just in the mid pipe, but this could be moved to where the stock sensor will be (i.e. just after the turbo).
Iain, from what I gather there are some SERIOUS people out there with pots of money, looking or doing serious rotary engines.
But that comes back to secret squirrel ground. ;) The cost wouldn’t be that bad if a couple of people got together and sorted out the initial costs of mounting the engine on the dyno. (Engine mounts, oil/fuel lines and such)
Fish
QuoteOriginally posted by Fish
Bill, the headers are already drilled and tapped, so that’s where the sensors will be. The Techedge is just in the mid pipe, but this could be moved to where the stock sensor will be (i.e. just after the turbo).
Iain, from what I gather there are some SERIOUS people out there with pots of money, looking or doing serious rotary engines.
But that comes back to secret squirrel ground. ;) The cost wouldn’t be that bad if a couple of people got together and sorted out the initial costs of mounting the engine on the dyno. (Engine mounts, oil/fuel lines and such)
Fish
Hey Danny,
Where are all of these people with pots of money who are doing serious rotaries?
I have yet to meet any of them.
Most of them have not got much money, otherwise I think they would be driving Porsche 911\'s instead!
That is the way it seems to me anyway,LOL:rollin :rolleyes: :D ;) :) :p :p
Kind regards
Carl
I have to say that monied RX owners do seem a little thin on the ground, outside some of the clientele that Pip has built up over the years (Stacey Vickers car being a prime example).
Don\'t get me wrong, I\'m all for monitoring EGT (the innovate aux box comes with dual EGT probes so you can log lambda and EGT). However using EGT is a 2 edged sword. You must know what you are doing with them or you could cause damage. For example the textbook peak NA exhaust temperature (based on complete combustion of petrol) is around 900C. This occurs at 14.7:1. However a number of variables will change the peak, such as coolant temperature, spark timing, inlet air temperature. So a best EGT on 1 engine at 1 boost will not easily transfer.
As for the engine dyno, they don\'t cost that much, so why doesn\'t the club buy one?
Bill
QuoteOriginally posted by bill shurvinton
As for the engine dyno, they don\'t cost that much, so why doesn\'t the club buy one?
Bill
Bill, if more forum members became full members the club might just have a budget for stuff like this. ;)
Fish
Unlikely as I run by the Groucho Marx principle. I won\'t even join the London clubs I\'m eligable for :-)
However I would happily send Clive a contribution towards the dyno fund.
Quotemost EGT probes will last about 2 minutes in the exhaust of a rotary.
what is an EGT probe ? isn\'t it just a thermocouple ? a standard K type thermocople should easilly cope with the exhaust temp, they aren\'t that expensive either.
QuoteOriginally posted by bill shurvinton
I won\'t even join the London clubs I\'m eligable for :-)
Blimey, I thought it was only Jimmy Baring from FDUK that was eligible for those clubs in London?! :eek:
hi guys, seems like this is a thread that is covering quite alot of topics. First you have the kind of questions from people like mike and myself. as in we know a bit of what you are talking about but would be very keen to have a bit more explanation.
Then the people that quite simply want to know the answers to a particular problem, like fish, and of course those that have the answers.
Please, please please dont anyone take this the wrong way but There are always going to be questions in relation to tuning cars that tuners will not divulge publicly. Unless you are spending big wadges of cash. Have you ever walked up to a car that is serviced by a certain workshop and had the bonnet slammed shut before you got the chance to have a peak? Or worse and threatened with a good kickin? I have. Sure only in oz where the competion is massive because there is so many possible customers out there to be had. Knowledge is a very cool thing and i encourage all to share, ( go d only knows how many questions that I have
:D ) but not at the detriment of ones income, buisness.
this late night rave proudly brought to you by your random token aussie. michael.
I Will gladly find a home for the aforementioned club Dyno!
And make full use of it too!
Kind regards
Carl:D
Any donations will be gratefully received by me!!!LOL!
But I have so much more space...and a distinct lack of neighbours:-)
I Would have a distinct lack of neighbours too if I have the dyno!!!LOL.
Seriously though I would have it in a proper workshop dedicated for the job.
Kind regards
Carl
:cool
QuoteOriginally posted by MikeLMR
what is an EGT probe ? isn\'t it just a thermocouple ? a standard K type thermocople should easilly cope with the exhaust temp, they aren\'t that expensive either.
Mike, yes it is just a mineral insulated thermocouple.
Clicky (http://tinyurl.com/3lsss)
Cost is about £11 for the 3mm unit that I am and have used in the past. They are rated to handle 1100c, which is why I was asking what temps we should see. Everyone keeps saying that a rotary runs hotter! But by how much is the question.
As for the engine dyno bit, I think I would rather now spend my money on paying for one of the aussie tunners to come and have a holiday. ;)
Fish
Just starting to read this thread.
When Rotechniks did my balck car they put a egt in, I dont have it now in the car so cant look to see what it reads, but it must have been Fahrenheit.
It would read between 1400 and 1600. Usually at it max reading 1600 when cruising at 100-120 mph.
On way back from LeMans it just sat on max ;)
QuoteOriginally posted by Fish
As for the engine dyno bit, I think I would rather now spend my money on paying for one of the aussie tunners to come and have a holiday. ;)
Fish [/B]
Well that\'s very supportive of the Vendors who pay for banners on your website. You take their money and they say you don\'t trust any of them...Not good PR for a moderator?
Bill
Now Bill, where did I say that I didnt trust our paying vendors??? And at least I am a full member, unlike some who find it hard to part with £20. ;):p
I would rather spend the £1k or so on getting someone over here, who has been mapping these cars for longer than the year or so. Everyone knows that the Aussie\'s and Kiwi\'s have better knowledge of the rotary engine, or are you now coming out and telling us that you are a rotary tunning god? Come on spill the beans... :bandit
This is not a personal dig, but at least Carl is prepared to back the club, unlike some people/vendors that post/trade on the site.
Fish
QuoteOriginally posted by g11ary
It would read between 1400 and 1600. Usually at it max reading 1600 when cruising at 100-120 mph.
On way back from LeMans it just sat on max ;)
1600F is 871C so that sounds relatively cool for just post turbo but if it was in the downpipe then it\'s approaching the max you\'d want to see there...
Iain
I\'m not a tuner, merely a student of EFI and a card carrying Engineer. However when I tune one of my own cars I have more time available to fine tune it that any tuner would be able to give, so I would say that my own vehicles have a more optimised tune than anything tuned by a 3rd party.
Agreed, when on either the bench dyno or a rolling road, you still then need to check things out on the road itself. They just cannot give the same streeses that happen on the road.
The little bits of fine tuning takes a lot longer than 2 or 3 hours or even a day.
Here is a picture of the headers and sensor locations.
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/danny.fisher310/Pictures/Headers.jpg)
Fish
This may not be much help but.....
I have an EGT gauge and the sensor is mounted in the downpipe right next to the stock O2 sensor.
At a constant 3000-3500 rpm it reads 1250F.
Under hard acceleration (81% duty cycle on injectors) it never goes over 1350F. However I have a water injection system which comes on at 5.5psi which will skew this number somewhat.
BTW. anyone know how to tune ignition timing on a car with WI as EGT\'s are going to be lower than normal.
Paul
Tune wihtout the WI, then switch it on for safety.
Fish
This is very true, DO NOT use water injection to cover for bad fueling / mapping:eek:
Regards,
Paul:)
Not a particularly optimal plan. Water injection should be embraced as an integral part of the system, not a bolt on safety margin. Otherwise you lose the potential 25-40% power gains that WI allows.
Don\'t believe me? Ask Sir Harry Ricardo
well you could but he died 30 years ago, you could ask his company but consultants fee\'s would cost more than that engine Dyno !
Hmmm,
My plan was to tune with the WI system. Not tune without it and switch it on later. I\'m still waiting for my datalogit to arrive from the US before I do anything.
However I do have a wideband O2 sensor. (Plug for Bill here if you intend to get one talk to him, great service.). The PFC base map fuelling is good for my mods. Its never lean and runs ~14.7AFR cruising. Under load it goes up to ~11\'s.
I\'d like to point out that I\'ve taken my time with this. I still havent given my car 100% throttle infact the most I got was about 65%. I also have a J&S knock sensor which is on max sensitivity and I havent gotten a peep out of it for retarding the ignition.
Using the peak hold on the Apexi unit I was very suprised to find the injector duty at 81%. I will be installing my 1300 injectors shortly and am in the process of getting an uprated denso pump.
My aim is going to be to get my fuelling close to the base mazda AFR map. Timing is where the black magic is, WI should allow me to run more advance. Tuning timing is generally done using EGT however if you add WI to the equation......
Paul.
PS. Apologies for the thread hijack
QuoteOriginally posted by MikeLMR
well you could but he died 30 years ago, you could ask his company but consultants fee\'s would cost more than that engine Dyno !
His Meisterwerk is currently being reprinted. A must for anyone SERIOUS about internal combustion. Contains all the founding research on water injection.
Paul: Bribe\'s in the post :-)
Tunning with WI can be fun, I just hope that one day when giving it plenty, the pump [edited] DOESNT pack up! Bye Bye Engine.... [edit end]
But hey what the hell, just get Bill to be the master mapper for you. ;)
Fish
QuoteOriginally posted by Fish
Tunning with WI can be fun, I just hope that one day when giving it plenty, the pump packs up! Bye Bye Engine....
Same outcome if fuel pump, injector, fuel reg, fuel filter etc, do not work as intended.
Dash warning lights are a good idea when using water though, if you are tuning with it.
:)
Well I certainly don\'t hope that the pump packs up whilst I\'m driving it. :) :)
I have led\'s to tell me when its on and when the water level is low. I feel I\'ve taken reasonable precautions to avoid this situation. However there is risk in everything you do. Doens\'t mean I\'m not going to have a go. :) :)
Paul
Having a flow sensor is also a very good precaution because if the water jet blocks up you would also be stuffed, this has happened to me a couple of times, an additional 100micron filter just before the jet solved the issue:D
Water injection is very useful in allowing you to use either more boost or more advance or both. But when mapping do leave a little room for error so that you can just about get away with running the engine without the water working, especially if it\'s your everyday motor and yer not called Mr "loadsa money":rollin ;)
Paul:)
Hey Paul
Thats good advice thanks, Any ideas where I can get a flow sensor & filter ?
Thanks Again
Paul
QuoteOriginally posted by paul C
Hey Paul
Thats good advice thanks, Any ideas where I can get a flow sensor & filter ?
Thanks Again
Paul
Just a std 100micron filter from ERL, think you\'ll already have one before the pump, but you can also put one after ;)
And the flow sensor can also be bought from ERL:
Water flow sensor 100-450ml/min 1/8 BSP ports. -Jan03 £69.50+vat
The link for ERL is:
Aquamist (http://www.aquamist.co.uk/sl/plist/frm-4.html)
However I\'m sure you can buy the flow sensors much cheaper from another supplier, just have a look on the internet at some engineering companies who supply water pumps etc.
Hope that helps,
Paul:)
ERL (http://www.aquamist.co.uk) do them.
Fish
QuoteOriginally posted by Fish
Tunning with WI can be fun, I just hope that one day when giving it plenty, the pump packs up! Bye Bye Engine....
But hey what the hell, just get Bill to be the master mapper for you. ;)
Fish
Guess you are not trained in FMEA, or you wouldn\'t make statements like that without having looked at the other failure modes and how to protect from them.
I must apologise for the comment I made above. It wasnt what I meant, and have adjusted the bit I got wrong.
I in no way wish for engines to go bang.
Fish
QuoteOriginally posted by Fish
I must apologise for the comment I made above. It wasnt what I meant, and have adjusted the bit I got wrong.
I in no way wish for engines to go bang.
Fish
I think we know that you meant well Danny.
I think you were only trying to warn others which is a good thing.
Kind regards
Carl
No worries.
I was confused for a while there:confused: :confused: . But no harm done :) and I learnt a few things about flow sensors etc..
I just rememberd my spray nozzels actually have filters around them.
Paul
Paul, whos WI kit are you using?
Fish
Its no specific manufacturer\'s kit. So its homebrew, it consists of the typical list of bits you need to diy one.
I have a 100psi pump. some different nozzels from McMaster-Carr, pressure switch, solenoid valve. relays, filters, fittings, fuses, high pressure hose etc.
Fortunatly my car has the washer reservoir on the boot so I got a spare washer bottle for the front which is where my water is stored. The nozzel is located in the standard intake elbow towards the throttle body.
Currently its using distilled water but I\'m going to add a 15% mix of methanol I think to stop the water freezing in winter.
Its all located where the battery is(was) under the bonnet. It all looks abit untidy at the mo but getting it tidyed up is on my todo list along with a bunch of other stuff.
Paul
My 12A turbo runs fine without water injection,so in the winter if it freezes,I will turn it off.Methanol will corrode your rotors and seals if there is any trace of it after the engine is shut off.
hi tim, i was wondering what boost you run in your 12a? If this is confidential and privy only to customers than I apologize for the intrusion.
QuoteOriginally posted by Fish
Tunning with WI can be fun, I just hope that one day when giving it plenty, the pump [edited] DOESNT pack up! Bye Bye Engine.... [edit end]
But hey what the hell, just get Bill to be the master mapper for you. ;)
Fish
With a good ECU you can put a sensor on pressure from the line, if the pressure goes below \'x\' using a compensation table you can back off the timing/fuel etc.. Guys do the same with Fuel supply, NOS, etc. etc.
Look at the MoTeC ECU Manager program, menu paths...
Adjust --> Fuel --> Compensations
Adjust --> Ignition --> Compensations
QuoteOriginally posted by Timrxmotors
My 12A turbo runs fine without water injection,so in the winter if it freezes,I will turn it off.Methanol will corrode your rotors and seals if there is any trace of it after the engine is shut off.
I\'m assuming this because most WI systems only come on above a set boost level running for the usual 5 mins off boost before shutdown will suffice to clear it out of the engine?
Iain
Can\'t see how methanol could hurt an iron rotor or an apex seal. I\'ll have to score some and dip them in it to see what the mechanism could be.
Plenty of people using Methanol as their FUEL for running rotaries in OZ and USA.
Just using it in water injection should not cause a problem since the system would be shut off most of the time and certainly should be off when driving normally and also when the engine is idling,after all how many of us drive into the garage or driveway at the end of a run in the car at full boost and throttle?Scary!!!
Mind you,Tim probably does!!!LOL!!
Kind regards
Carl
Try methanol and see for yourself! The damage is extensive.Maybe the methanol reacts with something to become corrosive.
I make 1.6 bar boost,\'controlled by a 1 bar wastegate spring,and no boost controller,no intercooler.The WI helps loads,but is not essential.
Always the mad doctor... ;):rollin :rollin :rollin
Fish
Thanks Tim, your set up sounds very interesting. Are there any pics available?:D
QuoteOriginally posted by Timrxmotors
Try methanol and see for yourself! The damage is extensive.Maybe the methanol reacts with something to become corrosive.
I make 1.6 bar boost,\'controlled by a 1 bar wastegate spring,and no boost controller,no intercooler.The WI helps loads,but is not essential.
Are you getting Methyl alcohol (which you can buy as an fuel dryer) and Nitromethanol mixed up here. Methanol is just wood alcohol, a good solvent but nothing that will dissolve metal.
Nitromethanol on the other hand is evil.