Hi all,
realistically, tuning my FD for big power will not happen for at least 2 years due to needing £15-20k to do it (bear in mind this will involve V mounted intercooler and radiator).
To fill that 2 year gap, I want to make my existing setup as bullet proof as I can get it but keeping in mind the future upgrades. Below is a list of components I feel will need replacing to achieve this: -
* Down pipe.
* Mid pipe with performance cat.
* Already have an A’PEXi exhaust.
* Fuel pump <-- needed? Would the system need to be mapped with so much extra fuel that a new pump is needed?
* Already have a Knight Sports (unconfirmed) performance cold air intake. <-- What are peoples views on a closed cold air intake versus an open multi filter system?
* Stock intercooler aluminium pipes.
* Stock radiator aluminium pipes.
* Aluminium throttle elbow with injector boss ;)
* Hard Efini pipe.
* Aluminuim AST.
* High temperature, kink resistant, silicon vacuum hose and pressure lines.
* Standalone ECU.
* Knock sensor (if ECU doesn\'t include it)
I would apreciate any thoughts (e.g. that\'s not needed, this is needed etc.) on this list.
Thanks
Chris.
* Down pipe. Yeap good move.
* Mid pipe with performance cat. Why do you need a cat???
* Already have an A’PEXi exhaust. Good move
* Fuel pump <-- needed? Would the system need to be mapped with so much extra fuel that a new pump is needed? Only if you do the downpipe and air filters
* Already have a Knight Sports (unconfirmed) performance cold air intake. <-- What are peoples views on a closed cold air intake versus an open multi filter system? Get the ECU done (see below)
* Stock intercooler aluminium pipes. Only if/when they split
* Stock radiator aluminium pipes.WHY???
* Aluminium throttle elbow with injector boss Again why? Save if for when it\'s needed
* Hard Efini pipe.
* Aluminuim AST. Yes, worth doing.
* High temperature, kink resistant, silicon vacuum hose and pressure lines.Dont use silicon, there are better products about, which names I cannot remember.
* Standalone ECU. Yeap worth doing
* Knock sensor (if ECU doesn\'t include it)Pointless IMHO. DET appears to only be deteceted once its happened.
Time for someone to shoot holes in my post.
Fish
Both the stock ecu and the Apexi PFC use the existing knock sensor which is screwed into the rear side housing just above the top spark plug.
QuoteOriginally posted by spanerhed7
Both the stock ecu and the Apexi PFC use the existing knock sensor which is screwed into the rear side housing just above the top spark plug.
The Knock sensor is usualy in the front rotor housing above the trailing spark plug.
Kind regards
Carl
Hi Chris
Before you do any thing you really want to know as best you can how the car will end up; TBH, if you are going to stick a big turbo on it a bit further down the road then I\'d leave the car pretty much as is; just do the reliablility mods like the coolant system bits you\'ve mentioned if you want to and may be getting the ECU so you can tidy things up and ensure every things set up to run as best it can. Stuff like down pipe and intercooler hard pipes are going to be redundant on a single turbo - in effect a waste of money IMO.
The less you waste on stuff that you\'ll end up sellling off for F/A later, the sooner you can afford the ported motor and turbo installation ;)
Basically, leave as it - or only bother getting stuff that you can be certain will be serviceable on your single turbo, no point buying a fuel pump thats way better than stock but might be left wanted on a ported motor and big turbo for e.g.
All this persumes that your long term plans include ported motors and big turbos of course :)
Finally thanks Carl - I was just thinking \'I\'m sure the knock sensors are in the rotor housing, not the side housings??\' :)
Hi Chris,
I think that Rich is right in that you should only modify exactly what will be useful for the single turbo conversion later.
Also bear in mind that your engine will not in all likelyhood last for another two years unless it has recently been rebuilt.
That may mean the modifying it will come sooner than you think.
Of course you could allways put it away for long periods to make it last and drive it very gently until you want to go ahead with the work.
If you do decide to go modding as the car is at the moment then follow what Danny has said,I would not recommend the twin filters though,they draw in too much hot air from the engine bay.
And even if you only do the exhaust,get an ECU upgrade.
Kind regards
Carl;)
A interesting investment would be something i\'ve been kicking around in me head for a few weeks now, a charge cooler???
Hippy will know more about this than me though, spoke with him at JAE and sounds a interesting setup?? am i wrong guys??:confused:
Firstly, thanks for all the suggestions and info :)
I had it in mind to replace all the plastic piping with aluminium. This is because I _think_ I am experiencing collapsing of one of my pipes related to WOT hesitation in 4th/5th gear high revs. I see that replacing all pipes is overkill and I should just get the one that is collapsing sorted out.
20B_boy : My plan does include porting and single turbo.
spanerhed7 : I didn\'t know there was already a knock sensor in use :o
Carl : my engine is about to hit 30,000 miles and I do less than 4500 miles per year (insurance limited) so with those figures I have planned for this engine to last at least 2 years :) (But I do have a rebuild fund in place.)
Removed from list: -
* Down pipe.
* Mid pipe with performance cat.
* Fuel pump.
* Stock intercooler aluminium pipes.
* Stock radiator aluminium pipes.
Will not be compatible with a single turbo conversion.
* Aluminium throttle elbow with injector boss.
Dressing at the end of the day.
* Knock sensor.
Already plumbed in.
Still on the list: -
* Hard Efini pipe. Really needed?
* Aluminuim AST.
* High temperature, kink resistant, better than silicon vacuum hose and pressure lines. Can anyone recommend good stuff? Is it really needed?
* Standalone ECU. Suggestions welcome :)
Thanks.
QuoteOriginally posted by chrisBoid
Still on the list: -
* Hard Efini pipe. Really needed?
* Aluminuim AST.
* High temperature, kink resistant, better than silicon vacuum hose and pressure lines. Can anyone recommend good stuff? Is it really needed?
* Standalone ECU. Suggestions welcome :)
The metal y-pipes are another \'reliability\' mod for the seq twin turbo system, if you find u have problems then it may be worth replacing with the later version - but they can be hard to get hold of or v.expensive new...
Ally AST - seen lots that leak? get a decent one and good mod.
Vac hose, viton is meant to be well recommended and last a while but I\'ve read differing reports about it. Price-wise I\'d probably use rubber myself and replace it every couple of years may be as it gets cooked off. Call it a service item when you have a rebuild :)
ECU, silly not to go for Power FC at the moment for reasons every one is aware of. Hopefully we will see other ECUs being used more in the future, just to give a bit of variation if nothing else! Think I\'ll try a Haltech on some thing soon if Geff fancies it...
Couldnt resist the thread....I had apexi fc, all ali pipes, uprated fuel pump, recent rebuild, 3mm tips.....etc etc
Car at WGT (probably best expert in rx field) for fitting of uprated injectors and whammo!!! car threw a tip whilst on rolling road for tuning !!!!!
Good news is car should be back on road this week !!
Who can explain the mysteries of the rx-7 ???
Adrian
I recently installed a koyo performance rad and i must say engine temps have dropped dramatically and my mpg has improved by at least 4-5 in city driving, so id recommend fitting a good radiator, as cool temps and better mpg can never be a bad thing.
(I also fitted a water injection kit, which helps me hit 60 in a whisker inder 5 seconds:p )
Intercooler and radiator are great places for droping temps and increasing reliability, but my future plans involve V mounting both of these. Plus my existing cold air intake may not allow a bigger intercooler or rad due to space limitations :(
The final list v1.0
* A proven aluminium AST.
* Replacement ECU.
I have knocked the vacuum hose replacement off the list because of the enormous cost of getting the work done. It would be best to get it done come rebuild time to save on labour.
I am still not 100% sure which ECU to go for. Is an A\'PEXi capable of handling a big power (+500bhp) system? Bearing in mind access to mapping expertise.
ECU, depends a lot on how much you want to spend too! MoTeC would be a good option too but pricey! PFC is the one everyone is most comfortable with over here, but Haltech is big in Aus and the US as is Microtech. Pretty sure the PFC can cope with big power, Ross\' Dragon car runs a PFC (Rich will correct me on this if I\'m wrong but I think Geff runs one in his 10 second FD too)
Rich, did u say Haltech??? Is Geff going to have a go at mapping it then? I wanted to start bringing them over myself but no-one maps them over here! If it pans out well I may opt for one in the FC.
V-mounts - I await decent info on these setups as to good thing/bad thing over the other choices. I\'m not convinced how an intercooler shut in an engine bay with a very hot radiator underneath it is going to be much better than other routes. Vented bonnet, ok - but there seems to be a lot more to having holes in a bonnet than a lot of manfuctureres consider - I\'d like to know how critical it is to use the \'right\' pressure zones across the front of the car ideally? I guess u only find that kind of info out by choopping and finding out tho :) I like the concept but would like to see numbers with these setups; all I\'ve heard of is Miguel\'s and from recollection that ran pretty hot on the track. Hopefully Carl can get us some info from his setup in due course.
The Apexi isnt the best ECU for high power I dont think. Geff\'s runs Power FC at the moment but only cause MicroTech couldnt manage to supply him with an ecu within the 6 months that he alotted them - nice service to UK dealers! :(
Haltech - yes. I was going to get an E11 ages ago for obviuos reasons but there were too many bugs in the early versions to risk running a 20B with. I know a Haltech dealer in NZ well now and trust the guys\' knowledge of the product and know he will support it. I\'ve always like the Haltechs just for the feature set the ecu\'s off for the money. Lots of people have had success with the E6\'s so why not. As for mapping them, I dont really see its a problem - a tuner should hopefully be able to use what ever u put in front of them once they are familiarised with the software...!? Lets face it, we wont all be running Power FC on RX7\'s forever - once other computers are more available and more people are known to be able to tune them people will want to try other stuff I think?? may be? :D
QuoteThe Apexi isnt the best ECU for high power I dont think. Geff\'s runs Power FC at the moment but only cause MicroTech couldnt manage to supply him with an ecu within the 6 months that he alotted them - nice service to UK dealers!
6 months!!! I ordered 4 and they arrived in 2 weeks!
On the subject of ECU\'s, I\'m getting the Haltech E11v2 (cost= £1050inc VAT&duty&shipping from horsepowerinabox.com) in a few days. The E6X is about £300 cheaper. Remember You also need a Laptop to link to the ECU.
On the E11v2 there\'s a good feature for tuning/checking Air Fuel Ratio (AFR) as you can plug in a Wideband meter to the ECU, or just use a Bosch LSU sensor (cheap!). Plus there are various ways of \'Staging\' (ie. getting the secondary injectors to come on - smoothly).
There are ECU maps that you can download from other Haltech users (also see http://www.hitman.hm/maps.htm), but you have to do the fine tuning yourself. Datalogging with AFR readings should help a lot with this!
However, if you want the ECU mapping done at a rolling road by a professional (=£expensive) I\'m not sure who does this in the UK.
Cheers,
Adrian
QuoteOriginally posted by sadgoth
6 months!!! I ordered 4 and they arrived in 2 weeks!
Eactly - altho this was when the "S\'s" were only just emerging in fairness at the beginning of the year. Goes to show what poo the dealer network is tho - I\'m pretty sure geographical dealer regions/countries are mean to be respected by other dealers - haha!
Why did u go 4 the E11 over the E6 Adrian? I was going to get the E11 for 3 rotor support before it went into very flakey bug mode after it came out :(
What info you got on CHARGE COOLING rich???
Price wise and temp running temp??
There will be 3 cars running the charge cooler that Geffs car uses very shortly; when thats the case there should be some reliable info about their efficiency some time afterward. Wouldnt say any thing more than that at this moment in time Gurj. Abel Ibarra used 2 of these coolers in his 20B twin turbo FD drag car (the one that was the quickest rotor in the world until not that long ago and thats now owned by RotorMaster in aus) out of interest. So I guess they thought the coolers were good for the drags at least.
True, there isn\'t a lot of info on V-mounts and I remain unconvinced. I belive Brian (BNA_ELLIS) is running one and he commented how his intercooler was cool to the touch after a good run. It\'s another setup that will need careful consideration for inclusion in a big power system.
MicroTech, Haltech, Motec (all from Oz?) are all names that have cropped up. The most important thing is having someone who can map it.
I have had quite a few witnesses of me thrashing my car for considerable periods and lifting the unvented bonnet with the intercooler being cold. Also the rad after 5 minutes of the car being switched off could be touched. The fans are on the underneatrh of teh rad so no hot air getting to intercooler from the rad.I won\'t bither going into the intracacies of how it works all I know is that it defintely does work and very well too.
rgds
What about heatsoak Bri? I know the drags isnt every ones cuppa and bares no whatsname to everyday use but the intercooler was hot at pod the other week Matt and I concurred (I think - Matt?)...
As I said, I appreciate this has little baring on road driving.
As for mapping, the same principles apply regardless of what computer is used - so as long as the tuner is au fait with an ecus features and software it shouldnt be an issue I dont believe...
Thanks for the info on the Charge cooling buddy:)
The "V" mounted intercooler has got to be a considerable improvement over a front mount intercooler which lets hot air from it go through into the the rad.
Also the front mount blocks a lot of cool airflow to the rad which kind of defeats the object a little.
As to the charge cooler,I know that many of the top drag racers have used them but with more than just an extra water to air radiator to keep them optimaly cool,the really quick cars have tanks of coolent for the charge cooler that they fill with ice and other liquids before each run.
So even the charge cooler has to have an additional radiator to keep the charge cooler cool,albeit smaller and easier to locate than an air to air intercooler.
I agree with Rich that a proper "V" mounted intercooler and rad setup needs to have the venting done properly in the bonnet,but also quite often it is suprising how an intercooler works quite well with very little venting.The key is to have an airflow going thorough it slowly so that the air molecules can take the heat away form it more efficiently.
The "V" mount that will be available through me is currently installed in a car and will be tuned fairly soon,so then we will be able to get some real experience and facts as to how efficient it really is.
There are draw backs and advantages to every system,so at the end of the day you have to take your choice.
Kind regards
Carl
;)
QuoteOriginally posted by Carl
The "V" mount that will be available through me is currently installed in a car and will be tuned fairly soon, so then we will be able to get some real experience and facts as to how efficient it really is.
Details ;)
Rich,
your almost as nosey as me;)
why are people in the rotary world soooo secrative??? You ask any cossie tuner what they have done to their car and they will be more than happy boring the ar*e off you with all the info. I\'m sure no one will lose a great deal of money if the secrets are out!
I\'ll just go and hide now........... i cant take the flack
QuoteOriginally posted by antnicuk
Rich,
your almost as nosey as me;)
why are people in the rotary world soooo secrative??? You ask any cossie tuner what they have done to their car and they will be more than happy boring the ar*e off you with all the info. I\'m sure no one will lose a great deal of money if the secrets are out!
I\'ll just go and hide now........... i cant take the flack
Perhaps because some of us make a living out of what we do, and some of us have had our ideas and development work that has taken years to accomplish taken by unscrupulous individuals by underhanded means.(They know who they are)
So I for one do not wish to give out any more info on new things that I am trying and have learned to work that will give other tuners and individuals an advantage on the strip or track.
Besides if you want to be ahead of the game,you don\'t need to give others any help.That would only put us all in the same place.
So yes Antony,consider yourself shot down!:D
As to Cossies,who doesn\'t know about them?They and pretty well all piston engines are pretty well known by most people.
I will say though that there is more than one way to make big power from a rotary engine.
I will get some pics up asap of the current "V" mount in the next few days.
Kind regards
Carl
Hi Carl,
I consider myself shot!
How are things with your quad rotor? Are you having any joy yet.
Also, how long before we get to see some of your other beasts, like clive and Gary G on jeffs heals?
Regards
Tony
Hi Antony,
Clives is all ready to go except for a couple of minor things and proper mapping,Gary Goodings is under construction as we speak.
The 4 rotor is coming along nicely,I hope it should be running fairly soon and would like to try to get it to the Jap show at Santa Pod in October,but I did think I might have it for Rotorstock if you remember,LOL!.So we\'ll have to see.
How is Davids triple coming along?Hopefully you will run it unsilenced?
Kind regards
Carl:wave
the tripple has come to a halt, we spent so much time trying to get it ready for totb that daves work was put on hold. The only thing that stopped us was a com lead..... we couldnt get the microtech to connect. We have now managed it but now dave has to catch up on his work. We will get round to it soon.