Mazda Rotary Club

Hi,

After many years of wanting, umming and arring whether to sell up and get the money together for an FD, last month I bit the bullet!

Managed to get a fairly standard, low mileage import that was bought into the country by new era imports 2 years back.

Plan is to keep it pretty much as it is, keep it maintained, tidy and enjoy it!

Anyway, pics as I know that's what people want to see!

Will be good to get to know some like minded people and learn from the wealth of knowledge on the forum!

Cheers, Doz.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171019/2ddcc03f72a1d3e7b2157aab7753b7dd.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171019/d2e479d7313396e01d4de6d7f19c2d0d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171019/70e65b4421726365acdd53ca78f6df2e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171019/f857ec27c5ee4c350239ed01b69d8618.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171019/33f26d91fa5628af531e276011a7b2fa.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171019/211ad9066ef39f35886149c6a0d508d1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171019/d913b3be680be8acea267613ec688acc.jpg)

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Welcome mate, thats a very nice looking car you have their!
Not many left standard like that defo a keeper and rare in white.
Enjoy!.

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Welcome mate. Car looks stunning. Enjoy!!!

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 :welcome: Wow, that's a real clean car that's going to bring you so much fun.

Cheers!

A couple of niggles to sort out (secondary turbo boost problems) give it a full service, underseal and cavity wax for now. Nothing too major & I've already got a vacuum tester and a load of new vac hose so I'll get stuck in in due course!

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 :welcome: Car looks in great condition in those pics.

Good to see another one pop up on here as FD's getting quite rarer by the minute in UK.

From personal experience of twins...check the basics first...i.e all boost pipes from turbos for loose clamps( large jubilees etc). Whilst will hold on primary turbo as it trys to transistion you get a whoosing noise and loose all boost pressure...i thought it was a vacuum pipe or solenoid...but just a loose jubilee that seemed tight.
If you havent got a boost gauge defo hook 1 up to see whats going on.

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Thanks,

Yeah I'm going through it with a fine toothed comb. It came with a defi boost and water temp gauge fitted so atleast I can see what's going on.

To date it will boost primary but then boost rapidly tails off in secondary (May not be kicking in). Change up a gear and I'll get ~4psi and get a turbo chatter noise when I lift off. Change up again and get full boost back for it to fade higher in the rpm range.

Fitted a new valve block (1996+ rats nest) as a 50/50 it'll fix it or atleast be a good preventative measure. No joy here, if anything I even more rarely get full boost and get stuck with the same ~4psi scenario across the board.

So to date I've:

>Tested the two boost control solenoids with power etc -ok.
>Replaced the block of other solenoids.
>Replaced all one way check valves.
>Tested all three turbo actuators - ok.
>Tested and replaced the blow off valve - this was found to be always open.
>Tested the charge control  valve - ok.
>Tested the butterfly valve that links up the second turbo - ok.
>Replaced any vacuum hoses I can find with silicone.
>Checked pressure chamber - ok.
>Checked vacuum chamber - ok.
>Checked all intercooler pipework/clamps.

So far no smoking gun, but I'll keep plugging. Worrying thing is that I'm running out of ideas!

Any opinions welcome! The cars a 1996 with around 80k kms / 50k miles if that's worth noting.

Thanks!

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Looking at that lot...youve pretty much been through what i went through with mine and found no smoking gun...
Intercooler core leak only thing i can add...poss on the joins.
What happens on part throttle up through rev range?

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That's a good shout I can pressure test the intercooler system.

I don't recall actually trying half throttle. I have tested the valve for the throttle actuation though and that works as it should. Only solenoid left is the turbo control vacuum solenoid.

Atleast if I change every hose so I know that's good. Some of the originals where soo brittle including the 90 degree hose that goes to the charge relief valve.

The car certainly feels strong and eager when it boosts fully on primary. Will be glad to unlock the full potential!



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Ok mate since you have tested most things topside and as this is a secondary turbo issue you need to jack it up.  Once infer the turbo pack you will see the three actuator arms. Check the C clips are fitted and all actuator arms are connected. If these are all fine check the hoses to the actuators.

I didn't see on the topside testing but worth checking the charge control actuator as its very easy.  Key on, key off and you will see the actuator arm move about about an inch in/ out.  Its just in front of the brake servo. 

Couple of questions.
1. Did you buy with this issue?
2. Std Ecu or Apexi?
3.  What downpipe fitted to the car?.
4. What max psi boost are you seeing?
5. When it drops off boost what rpm?
Part throttle can help rule out solenoids if leak or fuel cut. As will transistion.

Mine was spiking to 16psi...it would fuel cut at 17psi on cold damp day...mines on an apexi and wastegates are over whelmed so just keeps building boost with duty on the soleniods at max. Solved with an 2.5" orifice pipe in flange between dp and midpipe....now 13 5psi all day long .
Have you got the defi controller to record the boost pattern ?


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Cool Neil as well to help...bloody twin tubby system gives me a headache think i sussed out in my head how it works then i doubt myself lol!

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Yeah unfortunately bought with the issue. Didn't give it enough beans to notice until a couple of days after. Only myself to blame for that!

Stock downpipe and ecu. Only mods engine wise are a maxdaspeed cat back, hks panel filter and hks intercooler hard pipes.

Boost spikes at max ~13psi unfortunately I don't think the defi has a controller (unless I've not found it yet). It drops off post 4.5k rpm but since I've fitted the new valve block it seems to more frequently only give me ~4psi before that too?!

I've checked the circlips on the underside and they're all good. The charge actuator goes in/out with key on key off also.

Appreciate the help guys, I like to think I'm pretty adept technically with cars, first time owning an FD though!

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Worth noting I'm going through the hoses to the actuators as a next step while I'm there. Haven't found anything half as bad as the top side vac hoses so far though!

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Boost pattern std is 10 8 10....could be fuel cut not 2nd turbo issue...defi is a very good boost gauge so can say its accurate?
4500rpm is transistion point whens it loosing boost.?

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I've checked the plumbing for the defi and it looks all good to me. I did think that it boosts a little higher than the standard 10psi but it soon seems to settle around to 10. It will rev past 4.5k but just feels increasingly more strangled as the boost tails off. This definitely starts happening at the 4.5k changeover point.

Sometimes in first or second it can cling onto higher boost figures post 4.5k but not way up the rev range like a rotary should if that makes sense.

I'll grab some videos when I get chance!

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Worth looking at the ecu.( passenger footwell) stickers from when it was in Japan if its been in a tuning shop over there they usually sticker it up if its had a tune...its in japanese though...if no stickers then got to assume std tune and should not be seeing 13psi....
Need to tread carefully as could detonate above that pressure....defo wanna put V power in testing...

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What do you think Neil?

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Good shout. Yeah I always run v power as did the previous owner. Well worth a check though as your right don't want to go buggering it up completely!

I should be recorded what inwas seeing before now as that speaks volumes.

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Edit: upon checking my boost gauge peak is @ 0.8 bar or 11.6psi.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171022/d79fd8a50422a8e6b4867b4cbffe7686.jpg)

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That boost not so bad slight spike and gauge inaccuracy...just puts more confusion in my head whether a 2nd turbo issue or fuel cut...
Try a part throttle pull...4/5 then 2/3 rds throttle if its holds boost then wot is fuel cut...if it looses boost then transistion.
It will be ackward its like trying to nurse the  boost gauge to stay positive rather than burying the throttle in the carpet.


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Yeah that's worth a go. Will give it a try and keep you posted.

It's a shame because I'm soo dam happy with the rest of the car. Issues like this are age related though I guess. All part of the fun in one way!

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Yes mate report back...

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Where all hoses original?
Another thing to check for is the pils are still in place in the front 2 wastegate lines.

Yep all looks original to me - it doesn't look as if the hose clamps have been disturbed before.

I did wonder about the pills as for the hose going to the wastegate actuator I couldn't see a pill in it?! I did wonder about this - are 1996+ cars different and don't have the pill?! Some research I need to do here. I need to check the hose for the turbo precontrol actuator and see if this has a pill  in it.

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Good question i do not know the answer to that...both my fds have been pre 96 revisions so had pills in.


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Yeah it can be a minefield as most of the UK and US literature on the internet is for pre 1996 cars. I'll do some digging they may be in the nipple on the actuator I can take a look with a bore scope

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Yes info mainly for early cars...bloody complicated too.


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96 cars do not have the boost pill.
Do not assume that just because you have fitted a new solenoid block that it will be working perfectly. Your best bet is take your old solenoid pack apart (firstly as practice so you dont ruin a brand new one and secondly for spares) and individually test every solenoid.
Then take apart your new box and do the same. It may just be one solenoid sticking but definitely worth doing.

Thanks Jit, good advice. I'll give it a check!

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I've heard of new boxes not working properly from more than one source. The main problem I heard was stuck solenoids.

Yeah good shout I've got a power probe so can energise them and make sure they're working

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Been doing some more testing. Can confirm every solenoid works apart from the purge control valve for the carbon canister, which wouldn't give a boost problem. New one ordered anyhow to make it right.

Double checked all the turbo actuators and ensured they move freely and have the c-clips in place etc.

Double checked pressure and vacuum tanks etc etc.

Now I've just double checked the charge control valve and it would appear that if I close the valve manually (rod in) and hold my thumb over port B, it doesn't hold vacuum and re-opens. Port A with the same test keeps the rod in.

Exactly like in this YouTube vid I found:

https://youtu.be/AlTGf7ND2hE

Could this be my issue? I'd have thought that each side of the diaphragm in that valve should should vacuum/pressure given that it works on the principle that the spring activates the valve when the pressure in in the chambers is equal?!

Will scan the for sale adds & eBay to see if I can get a replacement, unless someone with more knowledge and experience tells me this is normal?!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171024/fa2a38a5b24e8cf40010d6d66af21d66.jpg)

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Ive just been out to my garage and tested my spare 1...and holds shut when you blank the rear port...and the front...welcome to try it if i pop it in the post tomoz...
Ill need your address...you cant pm unless a full member so pop it up here ill get then edit out.

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That would be awesome!



Pop your PayPal in there too when you send it I'll gladly cover postage and pay the going rate for the part!


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I got address...so edited out..
Ill pop in post 24 hr tomoz.
Postage etc...
Work summit out once you got it...lol part of me duff turbos been lying on garage floor for a year +


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nice one I'll let you know once I've got it

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Well done Jon  :PDT_Armataz_01_37:

Been watching this thread with interest, but with zero knowledge to be able to assist  :(

Hoping to hear of a positive result at some point; impressed by the logical troubleshooting so far - even if haven't got a clue, it sounds good! :icon_thumleft:

:happy1:

Hopefully fits and not revisions changes...
Looks like piccys.
Yeah fingers crossed...when you try go steady...all hell n fury will rumble when 2nd tubby comes on line...


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Cheers guys, yeah I think the rear half with the valve is the same but the front half changes to remove the rubber joiner by the looks of it.

I try to remain methodical, I'm an automotive engineer by trade so you'd hope so Ha!

Yeah hopefully this will be it. Atleast I've replaced all the hoses and tested everything in the process. Will be glad to experience that 2nd turbo!

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If there is a subtle difference in flange or summit...feel free to swap the actuator.

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Posted Special Delivery  should be with you tomoz.....AF227993138GB....
good excuse to go along PO and get a nice sausage and bacon bap...yum yum..

Cheers nice one

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 Just to confirm the cca does indeed need pressure and vacuum to operate correctly.  Anymore than 0.8bar will cause very slow primary boost due to the vacuum taking so much longer to equalise.

Also with low primary boost this makes the secondary system act up due to the pressure chamber not getting the required pressure.

Quick question, do you have a 99 y pipe?

Did the part arrive ?

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Evening. Yes thank you very much all here in one piece! Drop me a text or something 07827814633 I need to send you some monies!

Removed the old one tonight. Bit of a bugger to get all that off in situ!

Hopefully I'll have some time at the weekend to get it on and start getting the car back together.

It does have a 99 spec Y pipe on it from what I can tell.

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I was only asking as that silicon joiner is 95% responsible for  secondary boost problems and tiny stress tears can be hard to see

Yeah that's true. Other than a load of stale old vacuum/boost lines the only parts that I've found to be faulty are:

-Stock blow off valve,
-charge control valve,
-fuel system purge valve.

So hopefully this ccv is the last chunk of the puzzle and sorts it out and I get some reliable twin turbos!

Once this is sorted I'll get all the fluids changed, new plugs and hopefully have chance for some good drives before winter sets in and the roads start getting gritted.

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Quote from: Doz_FD3S on October 26, 2017, 08:37:09 PM
Evening. Yes thank you very much all here in one piece! Drop me a text or something 07827814633 I need to send you some monies!

Removed the old one tonight. Bit of a bugger to get all that off in situ!

Hopefully I'll have some time at the weekend to get it on and start getting the car back together.

It does have a 99 spec Y pipe on it from what I can tell.

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Cool ill drop you a text tomoz..on nightshift atmo

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Keep an eye on that boost gauge mate as 0.8bar is quite an increase from the 0.68bar it should be as standard for the factory ecu. The colder weather will no doubt increase this further. The standard ecu had two safety functions it uses to try to prevent you running lean, one is the rough as toast fuel cut which feels like you hit a wall.  The other is more subtle as it will adjust your ign timing and this is shown as your boost drops off as you climb higher up the rpms.

Working properly you should have 0.68bar to the limiter

Really though the standard ecu is too slow to react and is the cause of many dead rotaries. There are many good ecus out there now and i would recommend putting one on your shopping list

Yeah good shout. Once I've got the turbos working properly I'll record what the boost is doing across the rev range and see if it's normal or not. If not I'd like to understand why not and see if that can be rectified. Understand breathing mods will naturally increase boost slightly but I wouldn't have thought a mazdaspeed cat back and a panel filter would have that significant effect.

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Yeah as Neil says...light WOT..really get ready to get your foot off the gas...these cars do not like detonation at all...
Have you had chance to look at your ecu case?... knightsports sticker / redom sticker usually indicates some tuning in japan.
Text inbound.

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Yeah I'll have a mooch once it's back together as I can't get the pass door open the way it's parked in the garage at the mo.

Will go steady on the first drive & keep an eye on the boost. Hoping everything is normal!

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Any update on prognosis mate?

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I'm on it now. Just changing the last few vacuum/boost lines I can find before I put it back together. Taking some time as without the various ancillarys off the engine it's a right pain to get to!

Hopefully have it back together today if not nearly there.

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Lol i feel your pain...ive changed turbos 3 times...

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Back to head scratching im affraid. No joy.

Got a video of the boost I'll see if I can attach it.

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Damn...ok yes vid would be good...


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What's your current boost pattern.

I'll try and get the vid up to demonstrate but basically it sits at 0.4 bar now regardless of rpm. I can lift off and tip in to sometimes get primary but when that happens it spikes up to over 0.8 so I feather it to try and maintain 0.7 ish but once it goes past 5k it fades off and feels hesitant with it. Almost like a rev limmiter but way softer. Fuel cut?

I need to compress the video to get it up here but it explains it alot easier.

When I first got the car primary boost was good but now since changing vac lines and replacing faulty parts it seems worse!

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https://youtu.be/qFdFgnKxew8

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Defo not fuel cut...it comes in hard on overboost so rules that out...
With all the stuff youve change...not sure what to suggest...
If it aint boost control...
Dieing fuel pump clog fuel filter...blocked cat...if still in...
But the way it dies and recovers does seem like boost leak tome...have you checked the hard pipe outlet on 2nd turbo rear 2 bolt flange?


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Hmm yeah it's an odd one. Although the times in that video where it's making around 0.4 bar, I'm not just holding back at that, it's all it'll give! Then lift off, tip back in and I  (sometimes) get more boost again.

It still has the cat in. I was going to change the fuel filter as part of a service anyway.

I just don't understand why before changing the valve block I got atleast primary boost repeatably and now I more often than not get the 0.4 bar.

Valve block is new genuine mazda and I tested all the solenoids.

I checked all the turbo outlets as part of having it all apart.

Also checked the ecu that's deffo stock. Tempted to get the multimeter out and check all the wiring to the solenoids etc is good.

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Yes some pinout testing from ecu to solenoids ...you got powerprobe? You can test continuity of wires easily with it...
So checking solenoids for actually air flow as well as continuity?.all check valves in the right way...you may have introduced a fault with all the work youve done...it happens ive done it....
At 0.4 bar never gonna see 2nd come online so thats where to restart.
Bloody frustrating for you.
I suspect youve googled and have all the rx7club info from the states to follow?


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Yeah been through all the info online. Tested all solenoids with a power probe and checked flow. Didn't check the flow for the ones in the valve block so could re-visit that. Triple checked that the one way valves where the right way round.

Only iffy one that's yet to be changed is the fuel purge valve. Can't see How this would give a boost issue though as it's failed closed and there's a one way valve between it and the intake.

I can't hear a boost leak but worth testing all the intercooler too. I've replaced all the silicone joiner hoses and clams as I didn't like the blue ones that where on there.

Checking all the loom for continuity back to the ecu is worthwhile for piece of mind. Can't rule anything out with a 21yr old car I suppose.




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I still think boost leak though...have u taken all the couplers off the car and manipulted them only needs a tiny tear and the boost will open the hole bigger n bigger. Y pipe and top n bottom ic connector. Cheap enough just to get new silicone ones.

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My couplers are triple ply and all my clamps are genuine jubilees..done up real tight...no ebay jobbies got from Merlin motorsport.

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From your video a lot of the low boost is transition related. What i mean is once in primary boost and following transiting at 4.5k upwards then obviously your in seq operation. To allow the system to return back to just primary you must be below 3k rpm. This is the equalizing pressure in the charge control circuit. Tbh unless your dead set on keeping a standard car more than a fun car to drive i would think about a ecu and binning the cat.  Your in the south so rotary experts are all pretty close to you and if your happy you have exhausted all leak possibilities then that would be my best advice. Initially i struggled for a year with my boost trailing off and a specialist fixed it in 20 mins. After a pfc mapped with just the cat removed i gained 70hp and the cat ran faultless at 0.9 bar to redline.

If you had primary boost and now you don't then something you have bought/fitted doesnt work.  This sadly happens far too often with older performance cars

I think you covered it already but mine did the same after a turbo rebuild and turned out to be missing pils. Thought I'd mention it.

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Cheers guys, ideally I do want to keep it standard really. To the point that once this is sorted I'm going to try find a stock steering wheel and front lip. Not a fan of the carbon fibre stuff personally.

Hear what your saying but I don't want to let it defeat me. I don't use it every day and it won't get used much If at all in the winter so there's no rush. I'll make sure I'm happy I've exhausted everything I can check and test myself. If this comes to no success then I'll give hayward rotary or someone a call. They're not too far from me.

I'm trying to get hold of a smoke tester to check for boost leaks. I'll double check the actuators etc again, agree it's totally plausible for replaced parts to be at fault. I'm also going to check the loom from solenoids back to ecu plug. Generally just making sure I've deffo exhausted all of my capability.

As suggested above the 1996+ boost system differs in a few ways from earlier cars so I don't have boost pills.

I'll keep you all posted with further developments!

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