I am still pondering what way to go with the set-up on my 20B.. I have to factor cost of course but also I am factoring packaging and efficiency.
My current \'plan\' is to mount 2 small intercoolers where the FD oil coolers are normally located. I will then have a clear air path to both the Rad which will be mounted at a steep angle in the front near OEM mount points but steeper angle. I will then probably mount the oil cooler in the upper part of the front bumper or in a shallow V adjacent to the water rad.
A few questions have been posed as to whether my intercooler set-up is going to work well or not? It is not larger than having one big front mount really. Extra pipework to connect up for sure and one fairly long length just over a metre to connect from side to side?
So I have been looking at other options. One mentioned was a liquid charge cooler. I am not too familiar with these and not too sure if it will really gain me anything? I gather with these you then have to package another radiator, header tank and pump on top of the charge cooler. Do they cool significantly better than air coolers? I.e can they be made significantly smaller than traditional coolers? How do you go about sizing one?
Interested to hear all your thoughts!
Lee
I have a charge cooler setup on my rx4, it is the biggest cooler you can get from PWR. The thing you need with a CC is a large volume of water in the system. If the cc and volume of water is too small you will just heat soak it and it will never cool.
You need an electric water pump which you can have running permanently.
I have mounted the cc Rad at the rear of my car under the boot at an angle scooping air up. Also mounting fans on there too.
In essence an air cooler is simpler and lighter, however if you get the setup right on the cc system you will have amazing air temps and can get them below ambient if you use ice water, for drag racing or even track racing.
Whats the coolant volume in your CC system Grant?
I\'ve got a Celica ST205 CC setup on my MR2. Comparing my intake temps to someone with the same mods but with an upgraded side mount, my temps are lower and more stable.
Many Celica owners ditch the CC for an FMIC, but to fit the radiator up front the MR2 necessitates a longer piping run than on the OE celica system, increasing coolant capacity from 7 litres to over 10. I guess this is kinda the reverse of your setup Grant, cooler in the back and radiator up front :Laugh
Running a rearmount radiator on the FD would likely be problematic, nowhere for it to go without butchering the floor I reckon, as such you\'d probably want a water tank somewhere to increase coolant capacity.
Quote from: Brett;848382Whats the coolant volume in your CC system Grant?
Not sure, might have to get a jug and check., its not the volume of water in the cc I\'m talking about but the whole system, pipe work and rad Included.
Water is better for cooling, Fact, and if you get it right you will have constant air temps and no fluctuation.
A header tank can be used to fill with ice, or even better dry ice, to cool the water after the rad. This will give sub ambient temps and more POWAAAAH!
You can run a cc rad up front, a guy in the states is doing it. He has a great fan set up, and has even had to use a smaller engine rad as the fans were cooling the engine temps too much.
Here\'s the thread http://m.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=1004921
Interesting, thanks
No problem. He\'s going to be running some serious power too, gt45 semi pp and street ported!
You\'ve got me thinking about a nice PWR chargecooler setup now (http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/images/smiles/eusa_think.gif)
Like this, 1200hp flow capable CC?
(http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc507/grantmonkhouse/077913DB-2D4E-43FC-92FD-99F22323A534-15241-00001F8CD26E43F6.jpg)
Is nice... I like!
What power are you running and what sort of AITs are you seeing?
Not running yet:( but going off the outside temp right now -2! Lol.
I\'m going to be running pre turbo WI with that too so I don\'t think air temps will ever be an issue:D
I would have gone with an air to air cooler but wanted something a bit different. My cc was run on reworx rx8 drag car.
From speaking with a few tuners/drivers
Charge coolers are great if you are doing short bursts of power runs such as drag racing or short hill climb, the water has fantastic heat absorption properties when it is cold.
The long term use of them however is where they reach their limit. The water heats up and even with a huge radiator they will never drop the temp down below what a air to air cooler can in a reasonable amount of time.
This is why you see big charge coolers on drag cars, as they load them with ice or even liquid co2 to increase their efficiency. Personally with all the additional aggravation of pipework,additional radiator and pump why not just use a decent made intercooler core.
Kimi has a HKS v-mount on her car and air temps on cruise are seriously low. During a recent mapping session they never went above 8*c even under 4 power runs.
wouldnt bother with a pwr barrell have seen some cars setup for drag racing with big autos and some manuals with inlet temps over 100deg C..
not worth it when a good bar and plate cooler will do the same and to be honest the weather we have here in the UK i dont see any benefit.
If you get the system setup right and enough volume of water inthe system then it will never heat up. My car is primarily a drag car, however I will be using it for weekends blasts.
You say using a huge rad in a cc system doesn\'t make any difference? With a cc you are not trying to cool the water from 90Celcius like an engine rad has too, with a cc rad you need it to be able to cool the water from lower temps, 40Celcius and lower so you actually require a thinner rad to get the temp down.
The large volume of water in the piping system is where you gain the best effect of a large volume of water, as heat energy tries to disperse it own energy by heating up the surrounding area/water lowering the temps, this dissipated heat then further dissipates when it goes through the rad.
The rad I am using may actually be too thick for its purpose, I will know this once I run the car and log temps etc. if so I will try another one:)
Another important factor is that you run fans on the cc rad, constantly, it\'s a no brained really.
All this being said a normal air cooler is simpler, cheaper and quicker. I just want to have something from the norm.
Also the total volume inside my intake system and cc is actually less than it would have been using an air/air cooler and smaller diameter pipe work:D
It\'s all very well throwing more water at it to avoid the heat soak problem but 1 litre of water weighs 1kg. With a solid charge cooler system that will take sustained abuse around a race track you are better off going with an air-to-air system for weight purposes.
For drag racing there is no contest - the charge cooler wins every time.
Blimey.. That is quite some replies!
I think it has backed up my suspicisions. For my road set-up a Air-Air cooler should do the job. I was also considering how a water cooled system would work over a prolonged period due to heat soak of the water making for less efficient cooling. Drag use and race use I can see the worth for sure. Has anyone connected an aircon system to the charge cooler to get below ambient temps? I saw a post where some guy was going to try it and various other things. Not sure where.
So if I am going for the Air-air set-up what are the thoughts on the option I am looking at running. I want to try and improve on the efficiency by not running a v-mount of front mount and wanted to try something different! Just unsure as to whether I will create lag issues of other airflow problems with the twin cooler set-up.
They would be in series with 2.5" pipework constant throughout. The coolers will be based on MR2 sidemounts modified with suitable pipework.
Thoughts please!
Grant that charge cooler picture is great.. Is that your set-up with Geff\'s cooler? It looks huge!
Thank you
Lee
Yeh that\'s my setup, have had to alter the whole pipe work to fit it.
Not surprised.. No danger of that getting even remotely warm air in the engine I reckon! If I had a spare engine bay it might be the way forward! one down side to the 20B and big turbo.. They take up too much bloody room!
Chop fire wall and move the engine waaaayyy back :) ;)
Oh, my turbo isn\'t small:D
Quote from: rx7boy;848430From speaking with a few tuners/drivers
Charge coolers are great if you are doing short bursts of power runs such as drag racing or short hill climb, the water has fantastic heat absorption properties when it is cold.
The long term use of them however is where they reach their limit. The water heats up and even with a huge radiator they will never drop the temp down below what a air to air cooler can in a reasonable amount of time.
This is why you see big charge coolers on drag cars, as they load them with ice or even liquid co2 to increase their efficiency. Personally with all the additional aggravation of pipework,additional radiator and pump why not just use a decent made intercooler core.
Kimi has a HKS v-mount on her car and air temps on cruise are seriously low. During a recent mapping session they never went above 8*c even under 4 power runs.
+1
I have never seen a V-Mount or FMIC with a simple small jet post turbo WI system struggle coping with air temps, CC seems allot of agro for little gain?
Yeh it is. If I had an FD for driving around the street I would no shadow of a doubt have a vmount. With WI.
With a cc setup in the correct way and working properly, there is nothing to say that it won\'t be as good, if not better than a normal air to air cooler.
I bought mine for a great price, I wouldn\'t have bought one brand new as they are very expensive, the cooler alone would have cost me more than what I paid for the complete set up I have.
From the cooler I see in drag cars they actually run the ice cooler, it is essentially the same size as mine but with a box welded on top with a breather for the dry ice vapour. If I was running a full drag car turbo monster I would use one of those for sure, or just use methanol and no cooler........:D
Air to air is lighter and simpler and will probably be more effective than a charge cooler in hot conditions, less susceptible to heat soak etc. For drag racing a charge cooler will probably work better since you can the charge temperature down with out having airflow through in the car, particularly if you have an ice-box or similar.
Water (http://www.jonrb.com/emoticons/fencing.gif) Air
Quote from: marf;848548Water (http://www.jonrb.com/emoticons/fencing.gif) Air
:Giggle :wiggle :mmmm :Thumbsup!
Hahahahaha
Every one seems hung up on air inlet temps, you are not going to see much gain between 18 deg and 10deg? the WI makes a huge difference and not to the Air temp but to the EGT (much more important) the air temp makes FA difference to this.
At the end of the day air-air is fool proof and low maintenance plus makes a perfect road/track set up
water-air is much more complex and you run the risk of leaks etc then you are effectively running with no ic plus adding weight.
I see why you might run one for a Drag car, as you say you could mess about with it and put Ice in etc but you can simply spray a CO2 fire extinguisher at the air-air ic and turn it to a block of ice if you wanted to on a drag run so no gain there.
I can see the IC pipe length coming up in a minute but modern Turbo\'s spool and the Air speed in the Inlet run will help make little to no difference in Response and why would you need fast response on a Drag car :)
IMHO
:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:( not fair you guys are picking in me :(:(:(:(:
Helluva lot of confirmation bias in this thread and not much empirical data. That\'s all I\'ll say.
I reckon and nice vmount CC would do the trick nicely! Sorry :p
I have a front mount - big ole Apexi GT IC, tis good.... but I\'d like a V mount next :yes
Yeh I agree with marf, bring it on big boys, now there\'s 2 of us:)
This may seem out of place but it is linked to the thread but why did we to from air cooler to water cooled engines?? Because water cools betterer:D simples.
Quote from: Grizzly;848565Every one seems hung up on air inlet temps, you are not going to see much gain between 18 deg and 10deg? the WI makes a huge difference and not to the Air temp but to the EGT (much more important) the air temp makes FA difference to this.
At the end of the day air-air is fool proof and low maintenance plus makes a perfect road/track set up
water-air is much more complex and you run the risk of leaks etc then you are effectively running with no ic plus adding weight.
I see why you might run one for a Drag car, as you say you could mess about with it and put Ice in etc but you can simply spray a CO2 fire extinguisher at the air-air ic and turn it to a block of ice if you wanted to on a drag run so no gain there.
I can see the IC pipe length coming up in a minute but modern Turbo\'s spool and the Air speed in the Inlet run will help make little to no difference in Response and why would you need fast response on a Drag car :)
IMHO
Does the AIT change fuel amounts injected into the engine? Set by the ecu? Same as with water temps? Low temps allows a bit more boost once warmed up?
I read it on Internet;)
If you\'re building a drag racer then water to air makes sense. But for most other applications air to air with WI is a better option.
Quote from: Will66;848580If you\'re building a drag racer then water to air makes sense. But for most other applications air to air with WI is a better option.
Coming from a man with no turbo! How dare you comment?:) :D hehehe
Just a little n/a two rotor.
I\'ve got a turbo on the daily.
just fduk off any type of cooler and WI and just run meth lol :p
Then you\'ll need a mad fuel system and huge injectors and you won\'t be allowed on the road. But it\'s cool, and you\'ll probably not get any carboning up in the motor.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;848577Does the AIT change fuel amounts injected into the engine? Set by the ecu? Same as with water temps? Low temps allows a bit more boost once warmed up?
I read it on Internet;)
Can you tell me how much more Hp you will make having 10deg inlet temp as opposed to 18 degrees?
The boost thing is down to WI :) egt\'s directly effect how much boost you can run, i personally found i made more hp fitting a well flowing IC as opposed to loosing a few degree\'s air temp But i made Massive amounts more power when fitted wi and got my EGT\'s in check (you need to have an EGT gauge to see how well your car\'s set up or not and how much more you can safely push it)
Shall i check back when you have actually run a CC :)
Quote from: Grizzly;848595Can you tell me how much more Hp you will make having 10deg inlet temp as opposed to 18 degrees?
The boost thing is down to WI :) egt\'s directly effect how much boost you can run, i personally found i made more hp fitting a well flowing IC as opposed to loosing a few degree\'s air temp But i made Massive amounts more power when fitted wi and got my EGT\'s in check (you need to have an EGT gauge to see how well your car\'s set up or not and how much more you can safely push it)
Shall i check back when you have actually run a CC :)
For an 8C air temperature differential you will make 80Hp :D lol. Until you can prove me wrong with evidence then I stand by my outrageous comment.
Air temp will make a difference, if it didn\'t then why do we run coolers? I would love to see how much a cooler actually cools the air after the turbo to after the cooler, I bet its quite a lot.
I know about the EGTs, tuning these along with AFRs and the whole shabbang makes you able to run your engine harder, BUT if you don\'t control your air temps then your EGTs aren\'t going to be right are they? The WI helps make the air more dense and also draws heat out of the air, denser air and cooler air means more oxygen.
No point preaching to the church goers is there. Oxygen fuel and heat are the Ingrediants for burning/combustion this is why in nitromethane engines are burning 4 pounds of fuel for one pound of air, the nitro is fuel but it also has and oxygen molecule In there, blah blah etc etc
Basically what I\'m saying is the lower the air temp the more oxygen, more oxygen (boost) plus more fuel = broken gearbox! Lol
Anyway where was I?? I can\'t wait to run my cc, it should have prety damn good flow and huge cooling ability.
Quote from: BlitzBoy;848587just fduk off any type of cooler and WI and just run meth lol :p
All ready said this, most definately agree :evillaugh:eek::Laugh
Since the power of the engine is related to the heat produced and you want to keep your EGTs at a specific level it makes sense that you want the coolest air possible going in to the engine. Not least because cooling makes the air denser so you can add more fuel and get more power.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;848603For an 8C air temperature differential you will make 80Hp :D lol. Until you can prove me wrong with evidence then I stand by my outrageous comment.
Air temp will make a difference.
:)
I\'m not saying air temp doesn\'t make a difference, i bet the difference between 10 deg and 80deg inlet temp is massive but what i\'m saying is the single figure Difference in air temp will not make that much difference to you peak hp figure.
Air temp really doesn\'t effect your EGT. AFR or Timing or WI does.
Quote from: Will66;848609Since the power of the engine is related to the heat produced and you want to keep your EGTs at a specific level it makes sense that you want the coolest air possible going in to the engine. Not least because cooling makes the air denser so you can add more fuel and get more power.
Nearly, Yes your EGR is very Important, there are ways to lower your egt but at a set hp you will find the Inlet temp will not make anywhere near as much difference as say WI (and i don\'t mean WI lowering the Inlet temp, the water directly lowers the EGT quite a bit by effecting the combustion). Don\'t forget i\'m not talking 20 or 30 degree\'s here in the EGT 1000 deg 5 deg inlet temp don\'t make allot of Difference.
Yeh water slows down down the flame front and makes it burn cooler etc. it would be nice to have air temps lower than the outside air temp, that way you know your choice of cooler is working right.
One thing I actually would like to do is move my engine radiator out of the engine bay, mount it in the boot, see how much extra heat you would lose by getting rid of that PITA heat soaker.
Lots of replies.. and info! but has anyone got a comment about my planned Air air setup mentioned back on page 1 please? Shall I give it a whirl or is it pointless and likely to be useless?
I like the idea of moving the RAD to the back but I don\'t think that would be ideal on a road car with full interior!? Sure would get a lot or heat out of the engine bay!
Cheers
Lee
Makes me wonder if running pre turbo water and a couple more nozzles post turbo pointing into the air stream could you run with no cooler providing the pipe work was an ok length to allow cooling?? Obviously you would have to use a water methanol mix. Maybe injected at different points?
I would say give it a try, you are going to spool that turbo so fast anyway, and plus its bit as if you are attempting to fill a vacuum in the I take piping, it all ready has air in it and you will charge that up prety same quickly. My only concern would be if your rad soaked heat onto the piping between coolers??
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;848614One thing I actually would like to do is move my engine radiator out of the engine bay, mount it in the boot, see how much extra heat you would lose by getting rid of that PITA heat soaker.
Thing is you would only need a small ish rad if it was in the back, be a git to duct though.
Quote from: Grizzly;848619Thing is you would only need a small ish rad if it was in the back, be a git to duct though.
Wouldn\'t need ducting just some powerful fans. Could mount in the rx4 bootlid horizontally, cut a hole, make bracket, boom. Rear mount rad:) would help take away any fuel vapour from inside the boot too
Quote from: leeroy_25;848615Lots of replies.. and info! but has anyone got a comment about my planned Air air setup mentioned back on page 1 please? Shall I give it a whirl or is it pointless and likely to be useless?
I like the idea of moving the RAD to the back but I don\'t think that would be ideal on a road car with full interior!? Sure would get a lot or heat out of the engine bay!
Cheers
Lee
the issues that spring to mind is that having two small IC\'s in the oil cooler holes would mean very long and bendy IC pipe work which isn\'t ideal, the other thing is air-air ic\'s need good flowing cores (which are not usually small) and lots of volume of air through the front with a clean exit (the oil cooler exit is through the arch liner and out the wing vent, also not ideal)
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;848620Wouldn\'t need ducting just some powerful fans. Could mount in the rx4 bootlid horizontally, cut a hole, make bracket, boom. Rear mount rad:) would help take away any fuel vapour from inside the boot too
Or take the rear screen out Plexi glass it, Cut a hole in the center, mount the rad and open the windows when its upto temp :)
Why don\'t you just do this :)
Probably seen this already but FD porn :)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d26/Grizzly30/20bv2_zps480b1b5e.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d26/Grizzly30/20bv_zps885202b6.jpg)
^^^^^^ problem SOLVED.
For a road car, I\'d go for a large capacity single intercooler for simplicity and effectiveness, twin intercoolers are going to mean lots of intake piping which can lead to more turbo lag and if your coolers are separated with the radiator in the middle, you may get heatsoak in the adjoining pipework so they\'re less effective than a single cooler of the same volume.
Quote from: Will66;848632For a road car, I\'d go for a large capacity single intercooler for simplicity and effectiveness, twin intercoolers are going to mean lots of intake piping which can lead to more turbo lag and if your coolers are separated with the radiator in the middle, you may get heatsoak in the adjoining pipework so they\'re less effective than a single cooler of the same volume.
More critical is managing pressure loss across the whole system.
OEM systems are quite convoluted in some instances due to packaging restrictions yet the pressure loss pre and post charge cooler can be quite small. It\'s the core that tends to eat it up where the air has to decelerate and expand into the volume.