So I am getting to the stage where I need to get a rad and intercooler set-up sorted for my 20B FD. What I want to know is what do I need in the way of the two cooling systems? It will be a road car and not going too crazy on the mods but still.
Will a good thick core 13B FD rad be sufficient for the water system or do I need to get something larger like out of a skyline or supra or something with that sort of CC engine?
same when it comes to the intercooler. How do I find out what sort of capacity I need? I am actually thinking of running two smallish sidemounts either side of car space permitting. Unless anyone sees a downside? But need to know what sort of overall size I should be looking at and if the size on the inlet and outlet pipes is important? i.e the turbo outlet is 2" so does the intercooler pipe need to be at least this or 1.5 times the size etc?
Any thoughts/pointers gratefully received!
Thank you
Lee
TBH i dont know much about 20B\'s but i\'d be looking more at the Rad/Coolant side of things than the IC, you can just fit WI to drop air temps but water temps are a little more aquard to drop.
That said i know of 1 20b and that uses a PWR fd rad (whicg is about as big as you can go) don\'t bother with GTR or Supra rads as the rotary after market rad is that same if not bigger in size and some fit very snuggly between the chassis legs so not much room to go bigger. You can of course go more efficant such as a tripple pass rad (N-Flo) or some thing like that to help.
My advice would be look into getting a decent oil cooler set up, people often overlook this and it just adds strain to the coolant system.
Thanks for the reply.. I have the oil cooler sorted and plans where it\'s all going to go to get it\'s own cool air flow as much as possible. Just need to decide best options to go for! I don\'t really want to fit water injection so want to have a decent IC set-up as well.
Cheers
Lee
Are you using standard ports? I think any fd aftermarket radiator will be good for you as I don\'t think you will be pushing too much extra power, more power more heat etc, as for an intercooler and pipe sizing, a decent front mount IC will do but a good vmount setup would be good and better for airflow through the coolers. Keep the piping the same size as the turbo outlet, makes it much easier for fitment as if you go bigger you will be tight on space with the 20B. The core should be 3-4" thick
Thanks or the good advice Grant.. I am on stock ports at the mo.. When it get\'s a rebuild after it\'s all set-up and running I may do a very mild port on it. I am hoping to run around the 600bhp flywheel power which I think is pretty reasonable. You see lots making big numbers with boost but I don\'t want to boost it too much and keep it driveable for street use too!
For air flow I am thinking a sidemount either side of the car if I can fit them will be ideal and mean the water rad has nice clean cool airflow. other than maybe the oil cooler in front of it? Unless I can get that into a slight V configuration and have that below.
Is there anything other than piping size on an IC that limit\'s the flow capabilities? or is a core a core within reason? i.e as long as it has the depth it should be good to go?
Apparently the difference between a generic IC off eBay and an eBay IC is 10-15% cooling.
What do you mean by side mounted? You need good air flow to your IC as much as you do to your rad and oil coolers. I will try post a picture of a slightly different cooler setup that may work better for your as your space limited, although it will require good ducting to work to its potential.
600hp should be easy onthe standard ports, a friend of mine Kev who is on here has had a couple of 20B setups and one was standard ports with a gt4088 turbo, iirc he made 450-500whp on low boost
Hi Grant. I was thinking 600bhp shouldn\'t be a strain.
I mean sidemount type interlcoolers like you normally have in the FD. But my plan is to put them where the Stock Oil coolers are and then run one single long thin oil cooler in front of or under the water rad. That way hopefully getting the best airflow to each thing I can. This is only an idea at present as I am not 100% space will permit this? I really need to have a mock up with the bumper on sometime soon!
Cheers
Lee
This might work
(http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc507/grantmonkhouse/5DF66C82-D668-488B-9FF3-BEC393B225C5-22532-0000066A4AC819F2.jpg)
If you mounted the IC where the oil coolers are you wouldn\'t get enough cooling as they wouldn\'t be big enough even with 2 coolers one either side, plus it makes the piping more complex.
Yes, that\'s a nice set-up. Pretty whooping intercooler. The SMIC FD ones are not that big though. So I think I could get two intercoolers to equate to 1.5 times the size of an FD one? Maybe? Just a thought. Not sure what size guide you would go by on the overall core .. ie. what core volume am I trying to achieve other than as big as possible!? Of course two cores means more piping. nothing particularly tricky.. Just more piping.
Are the cooling fans on the back of the rad in this set-up you show?
Thanks
Lee
Hi Lee are you after a brand new rad and intercooler or second hand and proven?
Cheers
Mark
Yes the fans are in the back, basically the same as a standard FD but I think he\'s using aftermarket newer fans. He has actually cut front cross piece out to allow him to get his ducting in there. I wouldn\'t use 2 standard fd ICs on a 20B, I ran the standard one with a major extend port 13B and 1 bar, and my air temps were up to 50C!! They\'re just not big enough
You don\'t need to go as big as possible, you need to make the cooler work as good as possible. There aren\'t many people running 20B in this country so you have to try and see what works best.
No I didn\'t mean standard FD IC\'s! Blimey! I meant like the after market trust type SMIC\'s you get for the FD.
Mark I am not too fussed either way at the moment. Looking at options and costing it up.
Will go from there.
Have you got something then? Always interested to know.
Thanks
Lee
What\'s your e-mail address and I\'ll send some pics over
Here that setup with ducting and cross piece removed
(http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc507/grantmonkhouse/DD8F6DBB-1D23-46EC-82EB-DC5A16CCE028-22532-0000067CB46B703E.jpg)
Okay. That looks pretty sensible and it looks like a lower bar has been added in place of the cross piece?
My e-mail is leeroy_25@hotmail.com mark.
Thank you
Lee
Yeh I think he has added it for front end strength and also to mount off
Are you moving the motor back in your 20b? if your not you are going to hit space issues very quickly.
I think it would be a little soft to run 2" IC pipes :) especially on some thing that needs CFM like a 20b. Having a 2" Turbo outlet tels me one thing (you have too small a Turbo for a 20b :) stock ports or not)
You want to buy a Quality Intercooler its a well known fact if you use a small core (smic for example) or these cheap bar and plate IC\'s 9/10 times cause a restriction which will cost you power before you get to the point of removing heat.
Logan at Defined is a good person to contact about 20b\'s i\'ve seen two of his in the flesh and both been well made / tought out. http://www.definedautoworks.com/ sooner or later you will want his Alt kit too :)
Will check the turbo. It might be 2.5". that was more of a for instance. the turbo is a whopper!
I know defined. I have spoken to Logan before. My engine is in stock location and the subframe I made is kind of based around there conversion I will more than likely make my own Alternator relocation kit too.
I will check out there pages for ideas on IC and rads. I was looking at Banzai\'s build pages to for ideas.
Cheers
Lee
You should check out herblennys build thread here on MRC, probably the best 20B build iv seen, no expense spared at all.
Do you know the cfm or lbs/min of your turbo? Iirc it\'s a holset isn\'t it? Trying toget info about there turbos is impossible, I know someone that works in their R&D division and he even struggles to get into like that out of them.
Hi Grant. I will certainly check out the build thread u mention. Its nice to get another uk build to look as you say they are few and far between. Money is certainly no endless supply for me though!
Yes my turbo is Holset! And yes they are useless for giving info in the uk. I have had contacts for a couple of tech guys too. In the end I was given a cotact of a distributor in Finland to speak too! He was very helpful and specced the turbo for me. If it turns out wrong he will sort me out accordingly. Being a holset it is a bit of an experiment. So we shall see. I have specced it for quick spool. So if anything I expect it might turn out a little small.
You don\'t need to worry about spool on a 20b!! The exhaust ports were designed to help with low down torque and spool on the twin turbos.
Interesting.. Although I am on the stock exhaust ports presently I have read lot of people swap them out for 13B ones for better exhaust flow?!
I did a bit of google and from what I can find I think my Holset should be around 1000cfm flow rate. Although it is not a bone standard off the shelf unit. But it should be in that ball park. What CFM does a 20B need for the power I am looking at? How are you supposed to work that out?
I can\'t find a build thread for herblenny? and I see he is not in the UK! I searched his user name too?
Cheers
Lee
Okay. so googled some more and found a spreadsheet someone had done on RX7club for a 13B CFM. assuming that is correct and a 20B has about 1.5 times the CFM requirement then at around 7500 and 1 bar boost we would be at 1000cfm ish which is where I hope to be boost and rpm wise to get he power I want?
Interested to know what you think.
Cheers
Lee
I\'m at work just now so will post up properly in the morning, but I would expect peak power before that rpm with your turbo
No worries. I am just pulling ball park figures based on other peoples dyno sheets I have seen normally on more boost and more power. If I make more power I won\'t complain! but I want the engine to be unstressed and hopefully live along happy life!
Thank you
Lee
Are you changing the Exhaust Sleeves? 20b\'s have those daft defusers in unless i\'m mistaken. I don\'t know which 20b you have but don\'t forget most are older tech than the 13b-rew so you need to talk to some one that really knows there stuff.
Bit of a warning, if you are looking for more than 500hp you may want to look into doing some internal work to the motor (fitting studs etc to help with Harmonics) Just because you have a 20b doesn\'t guarantee you big hp (ask Mir).
There are lots of Sick 20b conversions this is nice too http://www.rx7club.com/build-threads-292/my-never-ending-20b-ppt-t56-8-8-project-970923/
Hi Grizzly,
Thanks for the heads-up. I mentioned those odd shape ports above and when I rebuild I will speak to my tuner about swapping them for 13B ones or other options. I plan to get it running as it is now and then strip it down and overhaul the motor at which point I will look at possible doweling/bracing for the block. My tuner will certainly be able to advise on that too. Geff from Reworx.
I have already been thinking about other bracing methods instead of dowelling.
Also I imagine how you mount the engine to begin with probably has an impact n this. i.e solid mounts. whether it\'s mounted front and rear. Whether you let the motor twist or try and stop it and so on. I was actually going to start a thread on that at some point an see different peoples views.
You won\'t be stressing the motor at 500-600 HP. You don\'t need studding dowelling etc. I\'m going to be at 500hp with my 13B and I haven\'t done anything like that and I will be stressing my engine more than you are.
I think the herblennys thread is in the members section so you won\'t be able to see that as a guest.
The stock exhaust ports will be fine, they are a pain to swap over too and take a lot of time and car swapping out. Only get it done if if your builder says so. Personally I wouldn\'t. Big power can be made with a stock block.
Do you know what code you your engine is?
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;841760You won\'t be stressing the motor at 500-600 HP. You don\'t need studding dowelling etc. I\'m going to be at 500hp with my 13B and I haven\'t done anything like that and I will be stressing my engine more than you are.
I think the herblennys thread is in the members section so you won\'t be able to see that as a guest.
The stock exhaust ports will be fine, they are a pain to swap over too and take a lot of time and car swapping out. Only get it done if if your builder says so. Personally I wouldn\'t. Big power can be made with a stock block.
Do you know what code you your engine is?
Yeh but the 20b has longer through bolts and crank, they suffer more from things like Harmonics and Crank flex. But don\'t take it from me find some one who IS running a big hp Turbo 20b.
20b\'s where not designed for big power they where designed for Torque hence why you dont see Manual Cosmo\'s ;) Bit of a Mith a 20b can make 700hp with nothing done to it internaly the wise people dont run much more than 500hp on a stock block.
Quote from: leeroy_25;841757Hi Grizzly,
Thanks for the heads-up. I mentioned those odd shape ports above and when I rebuild I will speak to my tuner about swapping them for 13B ones or other options. I plan to get it running as it is now and then strip it down and overhaul the motor at which point I will look at possible doweling/bracing for the block. My tuner will certainly be able to advise on that too. Geff from Reworx.
I have already been thinking about other bracing methods instead of dowelling.
Also I imagine how you mount the engine to begin with probably has an impact n this. i.e solid mounts. whether it\'s mounted front and rear. Whether you let the motor twist or try and stop it and so on. I was actually going to start a thread on that at some point an see different peoples views.
Give Pip at WGT a bell, he seems to have done allot of 20b\'s in the past not saying ReWorx can\'t help you but Pip is well set up for Long blocks.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;841760Do you know what code you your engine is?
This is Important because most 20B\'s are old tech and have second gen unhardened Statonary gears etc, need to know what your doing, You dont want to blow up a 20b :eek: My advice is do your Home work ;)
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;841760The stock exhaust ports will be fine, they are a pain to swap over too and take a lot of time and car swapping out. Only get it done if if your builder says so. Personally I wouldn\'t.
Seriously? Two roll pins? if the motor is apart they are aquard yes but if you have the nack easy, saves cutting the defusers out. IMHO if you are winding the power up you need to get rid of the defusers to stop them breaking off and killing your turbo (Saftey mod) if there not there there is no risk ;)
Quote from: Grizzly;841769Seriously? Two roll pins?
never tried to get sleeves out then? :Giggle
Mazda actually developed the sleeves in the 20b to increase tourque but the dont flow too well, ive used 13b housings in mine as i couldnt be arsed to dick about with the 20b sleeves.
geff does not work at reworx anymore dude, just chris.
as for strengthening a 20b, you\'ll get 500 out of a stock block before it starts cracking plates
what code is your block? if its an A block, just run it as is with low boost as i wont be worth you spending money on it no matter how hard you try you crack the front and thick iron.
b blocks aint much better but they\'ll respond to boost more positively
c
you can strengthen the block other ways without dowelling the block.
colum can you point leeroy in the right direction for his IC and rad setup? just to get the thread back on track?
Quote from: leeroy_25;841731Interesting.. Although I am on the stock exhaust ports presently I have read lot of people swap them out for 13B ones for better exhaust flow?!
I did a bit of google and from what I can find I think my Holset should be around 1000cfm flow rate. Although it is not a bone standard off the shelf unit. But it should be in that ball park. What CFM does a 20B need for the power I am looking at? How are you supposed to work that out?
I can\'t find a build thread for herblenny? and I see he is not in the UK! I searched his user name too?
Cheers
Lee
1000cfm / 14.27 = 70lbs/min air flow
my turbo flows 78lbs/min which is 1113cfm and should max out around 600hp so maybe im thinking your turbo is a bit too small for your 20B :( however this is just theory. i should imagine it will be a great street driven turbo though:Thumbs-upi would have gone for a GT42 personally. 85lbs/min
what you need to realise is that even at 500HP your going to have a tonne more torque than 13B guys so it will be an unbelievbly fast car.
now intercoolers...
im sure i have a couple of books that give calcultation for IC sizing but in all honesty by the time you have worked that out it all goes to pot by using bends and piping length. PWR make good ICs and CCs maybe est emailing them, i have done this a number of times and they have been very helpful, to find out what they think would suit you best for your turbo and engine.
or do it the easy way and copy what IC other people hve used:Thumbsup!
and apexi gt for an fd and a koyo nflow radiator will do you fine if you are running an fd waterpump assembly with a better flowing thermostat
id think about oil cooling more on a 20b tbh
Quote from: colum;841828never tried to get sleeves out then? :Giggle
Yeh mate, Done quite a number and when i was living in US saw a whole lot more done by a master. There are two or three ways of doing it, Grind them out (grind the inside of the Old sleave so the pin taps out and the corner of the old scrap 13b housing) or as i was shown to do it get a thin nail (half the dia of the roll pin hole) and tack it to the end of the Pin with a welder (bit of a nac to it and a couple of tricks, just make sure you dont weld across the split) then carfully slide hammer it out. Not hard it just takes a bit of playing until you master it ;)
Yes have had some experiance with this.
Of course fitting 13b Housings would be the best way round it but also costly if your 20b ones are good (o and they don\'t say 20b on them any more ;) )
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;841833you can strengthen the block other ways without dowelling the block.
Who said anything about dowling? i think Dowls weaken blocks personaly go for 12mm Studs ;) it would just cost you in Engineering but much stronger imho.
Quote from: colum;841837and apexi gt for an fd and a koyo nflow radiator will do you fine if you are running an fd waterpump assembly with a better flowing thermostat
id think about oil cooling more on a 20b tbh
This ^
Just Copy a 5-600hp 13b but with a bit of extra Oil cooling.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;841835what you need to realise is that even at 500HP your going to have a tonne more torque than 13B guys so it will be an unbelievbly fast car.
Honistly and i\'m not trying to put you off, a 500hp 13b will be as quick/Quicker next to a 500hp 20b, Torque makes it more every day frendly with plenty Low down grunt so will drive better on the road but the extra nose weight/MPG/Cost of 20b Parts will not help your cause if your planning on using in on the track or fast road.
But the Noise is worth the extra Money IMHO :)
Quote from: Grizzly;841861Honistly and i\'m not trying to put you off, a 500hp 13b will be as quick/Quicker next to a 500hp 20b, Torque makes it more every day frendly with plenty Low down grunt so will drive better on the road but the extra nose weight/MPG/Cost of 20b Parts will not help your cause if your planning on using in on the track or fast road.
But the Noise is worth the extra Money IMHO :)
That\'s what I meant, 20B for fast road car and and every day driving, which I think leeroy wants.
A 500 bhp 13b will reach the end of the drag strip at about the same time as a 500 hp 20b but on the road or a circuit it\'ll have a much wider power band and be far more friendly to drive.
Thanks for all the replies guy\'s that was a lot of catching up to do!
Regarding my block from memory it is a B series one. I remember when I started looking I researched this and new to stay away from the A\'s.
I know Geff outside of work so keep in touch with him now and then. Don\'t want to bother him with every question I have though hence my post. And also good to get more than one opinion and see other options.
If I need to change any internals I can look into that at the point of build if they are available. Housing wise I do have a spare 13B block so could consider swapping them out should it be deemed necessary.
Turbo size wise thanks for your info Grant. I guess time will tell. As I said before I have a hunch it may turn out tobe just to small. If so I will have to swap it out for something a bit larger or change a housing? I might e-mail the guy I got it from later and see if he can confirm the flow rate. I cannot do a whole lot until I try it now anyway. The idea is to have the most responsive car I can to meet my power goal.
Cooling wise I will take a pic of the oil cooler I have over the weekend and post that. RAD wise it has been suggested elsewhere about using a RAD from a modern 400bhp ish car like a BMW or something as they should have the extra cooling contigency to cope with a 600bhp motor? Any thoughts on that. Other than that I think I am with an N-Flow as mentioned by colum. Is there a big difference between that and a standard flowing rad?
Colum, You also mention abotu a better flow thermostat? I am on the FD waterpump but wil remove the filler neck assembly to replace it with a plain elbow of sorts. Is there a particular lowe temp/high flow stat I should be getting?
Cheers for all the info though.
Lee
your cooling system will only be as good as the the flow through the smallest part of the coolant passage, the sard thermo stat opens at a lower temp but more importantly, flows alot more than a stock fd when fully open. i did a comparison a long time ago on fduk and cant find the pictures anymore but the sard one opens 25% more than the stock fd one.
the koyo rads are great bits of kit, well worth the extra money spent over a chinese copy type affair
:)
The N flow radiators slow the water passing through the radiator making it more efficient. However a cheap eBay rad can be modified quite easily to be like an N flow
Hi Grant.. If I get the N-flow correctly the Mod would be to cut the upper and lower cappings off the core and weld in divisions. So the top has a division about 1/3 along then the bottom has 2 divisions at about 1/3 increments again. I guess you could just cut a section out of the rad and weld in the divider? Wish I had an ally tig welder too! Although not a huge amount of work I guess. You must need to make sure the division is welded accross the ends of the core between two water passages as well? To be sure you don\'t blank off a passage and that the water cannot creep between the sections of your N?
So Grant you would presumably buy a cheaper one and mod it to make it better?
Good shout with the thermostat colum. I need to make a note of that. Thermostat body and bits are in my mind the whole time but until i sort the rad and stuff I don\'t exactly know what I need. Might just buy a stat anyway.
do mazda not do a race stat at all? obviously I will google around anyway. Just surpised if there is only one choice.
Thanks
Lee
Yeh that\'s what I would I do, modding a cheap radiator. Saves cash. You only need to put 2 dividers in, 1 at the top 1/3rd across from the inlet then one in the bottom 2/3 a rooms from the inlet. You wouldn\'t need to weld them inside as the obstruction would cause most of the water flowing through the internal cores. This will stop the water just going from the end tank on top to the bottom end tank as fast as possible
Iv got an eBay rad, when I go home I will draw on it to show you what I mean
Hi Grant,
Yeah.. That makes sense. pretty sure I get what you mean. Not sure why I added in the extra division!
So you just cut a slot in the upper and lower tank and get teh best fit you can on the divider..
Cheers
Lee
Yeh that\'s what I would do. Probably save you £200 on a radiator too
Can you see the red marks. That\'s where I would put the dividers(http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc507/grantmonkhouse/BECE3A2A-9C6C-4348-91B2-74FF1FB84CA0-26044-0000074C1120189C.jpg)
You don\'t need to use a Mazda specific one. You could even use an intercooler core with equal sized end tanks and insert the dividers
Thanks Great.. Yep.. That\'s what I had in mind. I think if people run FD ones anyway they are quite a good size and the shape suits the packaging. so I can make a rad that is almost as good as proper N-flow for a fair bit less. Sounds like a plan to me.. If I need to get it cooler down the road I can always sell it on and invest in something bigger. but it should sure getting me running to begin with at least. I guess you are using that rad?!
IC wise I might be onto something too.. Now that we had the talk about CFM\'s I now roughly what I am looking for I think.
Oil cooler I will post pics later.. Someone mentioned the one I have might be older RX7. It came with the engine? It is not too dissimilar to this.. Possibly a bit taller though?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/aluminum-oil-cooler-mazda-RX2-RX3-RX4-RX7-oilcooler-/170793291850?pt=AU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27c412d04a&_uhb=1
I know the FD runs 2 oil coolers as standard. all be it small ones. Sure one decent size cooler will do the trick and that is down to how they chose to package the various rads? The one I have may be too small but it did come with the engine? I put a good aftermarket oil cooler in my RB30 and I struggle to get the oil warm! Not huge either.
Thank you
Lee
Just dont for the love of God use a cheap ebay one, Possably the most important part of a decent set up? when i bought my Fd the rad was a cheap jobbie and the alloy end tanks where weaping at the point they had bent the alloy without warming it correctly.
Are you seriously looking to save £200 on a Rad of all things? sorry if i sound like i\'m having a pop but in my world Cooling is a no expence spared item you don\'t buy of Ebay :) Go to Rad tec or a rad maker if you want to make some thing custom.
N-flo slows nothing, they are triple pass rads, possably the only one you can buy for the fd that uses the whole area of the Core unlike normal rads that the coolant passes the easiest route so is less efficant. Dont use a stock BM or merc etc rad, they use Plastic end tanks which is also a bit of a no no.
I have used a couple of eBay ones, they worked great. I had temps drop 10-15C with them and no leaks. If it is good enough to get the car going and see how things fit then they\'re worth it in my eyes. Cheap too. I asked a custom rad builder for one for my car, sent them dimensions and they quoted me 375 plus vat!!
Said before there are a few things you don\'t cut corners on and the no1 is water cooling sytem.
N-Flo or big PWR rad 100% all day. But thats my personal opinion if you want to cut corners its your motor at the end of the day.
Quote from: leeroy_25;841926I put a good aftermarket oil cooler in my RB30 and I struggle to get the oil warm! Not huge either.
Look into a Oil Thermostat, i have two 25 row Mocal\'s on my 450hp fd and it works really well, you would have to ask some one who knows a bit more about 20b\'s than me but quality Coolers (proberly 2x30row??) and a Thermostat would serve you well, i think they use two coolers to get good air flow through them (placed in good possitions)
Thanks for the replies again chaps. I have noted your advice Grizzly and will explore some other options. I am in the meantime possibly picking up a cheap, probably ebay, rad to at least use for some rough sizing and I can always use as as guide to get a custom one done. There are a lot of \'branded\' rads you see out there that look very similar to the ebay ones by the way. My old FD had one and it worked fine for me? if you buy a core and start from scracth how do you know you are getting a decent core? I could get a custome one made easy enough as long as I can get a decent core and use the FD one for a size guide if not making it slightly thicker?
Might drop the rad guys you mention a line.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;841946I have used a couple of eBay ones, they worked great. !
What Hp did you run with it on? Mine was ok until i started to wind the power up and the End tanks started to bulge / fracture at the end tank bends. I would never recomend one.
No idea on power, 300+rwhp maybe. Still on the twins. I\'m running an EWP on my setup
EWP\'s work great on race cars, I had an EWP but i went back to aftermarket FD water pump because it was taking too long to warm up with no Thermostat (not for my road car)
Have you run an Ebay rad on a std Waterpump car?
Yes on my FD that I sold last year. I know the eBay rads are cheap and cheerful but they do work. It\'s a half decent upgrade if you can\'t afford an expensive brand rad.
my rx4 is primarily a drag car but a road car too. I don\'t mind waiting for the temps to get going. Plus I can use my ecu to control the pump and control the temperature
Not to sound funny but "Cheap and Cheerful" has no place in a Tuned Rotary especially when you’re talking about an engine as rare / hard to get bits for as a 20b. You want reliable or Bullet proof not cheap ;) IMHO if you can\'t afford to do it right not sure you should be winding it up.
As for the EWP yeh i found it was good for cooling the motor down (could leave it running with the engine off) and once it was warmed up worked well but no better than my stock system think it was waisted on my car, so as the car was being used more for road than Track it got taken out (lost the extra nose weight too), i tried turning the Water feed down until it was hot but didn\'t make allot of diffrence to the warm up, guess the Hot water spent more time in the rad as well as the hot engine so??
Extra weight? The EWP setup I have is really light, I think the pump weighs less than 900grams.
Yeh with a 20B you should be more careful seen as it costs 50% more on rebuild parts alone. However there still isn\'t a garentee that an expensive rad will be bullet proof
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;841977Extra weight? The EWP setup I have is really light, I think the pump weighs less than 900grams.
Yeh mine was mounted in the nose of the car so even though it proberly weighed less than the stock set up (without water in it) it was where that weight was in the car (try to keep all the weight behind the front wheels if i can thats why i prefer the N-flo as it does the same job as the bigger read but holds less water)
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;841977However there still isn\'t a garentee that an expensive rad will be bullet proof
TBH if you get a Named rad from a decent rad maker (Koyo,PWR,Fluidine the list goes on) there made from Quality materials, R&D\'d and often come from motor sport back ground (pressure tested, there reputation / pride have gone into the product) the cheap Chinese rads are mass produced from Thin, poor quality even wrong type alloy. As its been said many times before, if you don’t get a grantee there is usually a reason for it. ;)
Grizzly,
You mentioned an aftermarket FD water pump? were you talking electric or standard type? if so what is the pump you are talking about and is it much better than a factory one?
Thanks for all the feedback again guys.
Cheers
Lee
Just to be sure are Godspeed and Mishimoto rads just re-branded cheap ones?
Also is it better to have twin core or triple core? Or is it just the thickness of the core that counts and rest sorts itself?
I dropped a few Custom rad shops a lines so will see what they come back with. Thinking I might just get a core and DIY the rest. Only thing is how do I know I am getting a decent core and not a cheapy?
If I knew the core was good I could get hold of a second hand cheapy for the bodies and weld a new core into it?
Thoughts on that? I do love a bit of DIY!
One last thing.. I didn\'t find SARD hi-flow thermostats but I found Tridon one in Australia? and also a Mishimoto do a low temp 68°C one? Familiar with either of these? Which makes me think maybe Mishimoto RADs are not cheapy cheapy cheap?!
Cheers
Lee
Quote from: leeroy_25;842017Grizzly,
You mentioned an aftermarket FD water pump? were you talking electric or standard type?
I picked up a Mazmart Pump a bit back (never a big fan of the stock Waterpump)
Quote from: leeroy_25;842032I didn\'t find SARD hi-flow thermostats
I may be wrong but i think this is the one http://www.rhdjapan.com/sard-low-temperature-thermostat-rx-7-fd3s-11097
I have a 68deg opening one but i didn\'t know you can get better flowing Stats.
Thanks Grizzly,
So your thhermostat is not hi-flow as such but it happens to flow higher due to lower temp openig I assume. So Porbbaly much of a muchness if i pick-up a Mishimoto one or Tridon hi flow? I know my Nismo Low temp stat in my RB30 makes a huge difference in running temp.
What about the RAD questions above? Is Mishimoto generally cheap re-brand do we think?
Thoughts on getting a decent raad core and using in a cheapy rad or complete DIY fab?
Cheers
Lee
well here was an interesting find.
http://radiator-review.com/mishimoto.html
read the koyo rviews as well..
Think I might just get a Mishimoto one?? and if need be mod it for N-Flow.
Lee
Hey fella, won\'t be long till K-II comes back from Pip @ WGT, we\'ll then be rebuilding the engine bay
back up, you\'re welcome to come see my 20B in the flesh and how we\'re setting him up, defo a V-Mount
is best in my opinion, we had great temp results from that and a good ducting set up to match.
Dave
Hi There Dave,
I have been following your build. Quite hard core! it is going to be a tool that\'s for sure.
What base rad have you gone for out of interest. I am now toying with an RX7 LS conversion rad if it will fit. Bit larger than the normal FD ones. might get both and see which packages better. Still not sure what I am doing cooler wise though. Might well take you up on that offer of coming over in the next couple of weeks. I can tell the missus we are going christmas shopping. She would love a trip to Reading! Drop me your details a leeroy_25@hotmail.com so I can get in touch.
Good luck completing your build.
Thanks
Lee
PMSL, that\'s a great plan Lee. hehe.
I can\'t remember what rad I used, I will check my paperwork to see if I can find it.
Here are a few pics to show you my set up, bear in mind the engine has been moved back.
The new build WILL look slightly different but the overall format will be the same.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x177/Sicknote301/Roxy/Kermit/KermyEngineBay.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x177/Sicknote301/Roxy/Kermit/KermyEngineBay1.jpg)
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x177/Sicknote301/Roxy/Kermit/Picture043.jpg)
Cool thanks.. yeah my motor is stock position mounted.. Notice yours seems to sit really low? Did you lower it extra? Nice install though.
The engine is dry sumped so sits 5-6 inches lower than stock. :)
Quote from: leeroy_25;842237Cool thanks.. yeah my motor is stock position mounted.. Notice yours seems to sit really low? Did you lower it extra? Nice install though.
Hi leeroy, what dry sump setup did u use ,on your 20b?
Is it a custom sump plate and uses an off the shelf pump?
Thanks
Chris
Hi Chris,
Mine is not dry sump.. If only!!
You want to ask Dave that one.
On that note Dave.. you need to drop me your contact details so I can arrange a trip over in the not too distant future.
Cheers
Lee
Oh yeah, sorry. My bad. So what kit have u used to install your 20b?
Sub frame etc?
I have been looking into this for a little while.
20b been sitting in garage about 18 months now!
I quite like the look of the Defined auto works solution.
Chris
Hi Chris,
I am not using it.. Check out the link for my website on my other thread in this area and you can see what I have done. It is very similar to Defined\'s solution.
There seem to be a few nice builds going on around at the moment so have a look around and see what people are up to. As I am sure you are aware there are a number of options and that kind of depends on your end goal for the car I guess and how big your pockets are!?
One thing I know is that 20B is doing no good sat in the garage! You just need to get stuck into it!
Good Luck.