Im thinking of fitting a fmic to my fd, im not planning any other big performance upgrades its more for the look than performance.
Will it be ok to run a fmic without a pfc?
does a fmic have much of a effect on the fd\'s cooling with standatd rad?
Yea you would really need to get the map tweaked after a fmic
thinking about it though its only going to be colder air going into the engine, shouldnt be more air so the stock ecu should be able to auto adjust for this as though you were driving on a cold day?
Defo need a remap, a frend of mine made 15hp throughout his rev range just by swapping his Aftermarket PFS SMIC for a Huge Blitz FMIC. So any IC swap will need a tweak (not so much the temp but the Volume of air, SMIC is a big restriction)
TBH you should be thinking PFC before any other Mod on an FD (not worth the risk)
Quote from: Eoiny555;840456Im thinking of fitting a fmic to my fd, im not planning any other big performance upgrades its more for the look than performance.
Will it be ok to run a fmic without a pfc?
does a fmic have much of a effect on the fd\'s cooling with standatd rad?
hi eoiny i have a apexi gt fmic kit with patented delta fin design! its one of the best intercoolers around & handles over 600bhp which cost me £1250 new, £400 collected. lucuswalker@hotmail.co.uk
Quote from: Grizzly;840559Defo need a remap, a frend of mine made 15hp throughout his rev range just by swapping his Aftermarket PFS SMIC for a Huge Blitz FMIC. So any IC swap will need a tweak (not so much the temp but the Volume of air, SMIC is a big restriction)
TBH you should be thinking PFC before any other Mod on an FD (not worth the risk)
Looks like that idea will have to go back on the shelf for the time being lol, thanks for replys
Quote from: Grizzly;840559Defo need a remap, a frend of mine made 15hp throughout his rev range just by swapping his Aftermarket PFS SMIC for a Huge Blitz FMIC. So any IC swap will need a tweak (not so much the temp but the Volume of air, SMIC is a big restriction)
TBH you should be thinking PFC before any other Mod on an FD (not worth the risk)
lol.. really a remap needed for just an upgraded intercooler?? lol . Some of you guys just love spending unnecessary money. My friend, your friend had other issues you knew nothing about
To the Op.. You don\'t.. and I will repeat DON\'T need a remap, it helps but you do not. the stock computer is fine for that upgrade... actually Ill tell you what your fine with before you need a tune..
intercooler
cat back exhaust
mid pipe
AND/OR down pipe upgrade
AND/OR intake(might still get spikes, some cars differ)
pulleys
Your problem lies with the computer when you want to start boosting over 12ish psi, a full exhaust from down pipe to catback will cause spikes. the stock injectors are pretty much at max t 15psi.. not asking.. telling you...did these mods many times, if you rather a big name shop to tell you what I just said, you can contact pettitracing in florida, or rx7.com or pretty much anyone the US that are running fast rx7. Its the basic that most seven owners start with.
Quote from: Indian;843443lol.. really a remap needed for just an upgraded intercooler?? lol . Some of you guys just love spending unnecessary money. My friend, your friend had other issues you knew nothing about
To the Op.. You don\'t.. and I will repeat DON\'T need a remap, it helps but you do not. the stock computer is fine for that upgrade... actually Ill tell you what your fine with before you need a tune..
intercooler
cat back exhaust
mid pipe AND/OR down pipe upgrade AND/OR intake(might still get spikes, some cars differ)
pulleys
Your problem lies with the computer when you want to start boosting over 12ish psi, a full exhaust from down pipe to catback will cause spikes. the stock injectors are pretty much at max t 15psi.. not asking.. telling you...did these mods many times, if you rather a big name shop to tell you what I just said, you can contact pettitracing in florida, or rx7.com or pretty much anyone the US that are running fast rx7. Its the basic that most seven owners start with.
Dude That Mod list you have quoted is WAY!!! to much for a stock ecu, IMHO the first thing that should be added is PFC then everything else should be added in stages with tune Tweaks to make a SAFE!! Map. Yes Stock IC - FMIC will give you allot better air flow so needs more fuel?? thats before you add the much colder Air which also needs more fuel?? so yes i\'d say Map tweek is needed.
I was at the Dyno day when the IC was swapped over and the car had NO issues, i can provide a Dyno Print out if you want proof??. I am not quoting third parties in the US but what i have actually seen myself.
While I won\'t say that getting an ecu first is a wrong idea, it is not necessary. There are many things that could have attributed to an hp increase... loose hose, heat soak etc..
I have done these mods on a few cars including two of my own rx7 and have never had any issues. So I do have first hand experience with what I\'m saying. I only quoted this shop\'s as these professional shops can vouch for what I\'m saying. They all know me, so please don\'t think I\'m name dropping.
Beenough there done that
Quote from: Indian;843681While I won\'t say that getting an ecu first is a wrong idea, it is not necessary. There are many things that could have attributed to an hp increase... loose hose, heat soak etc..
LOL, dont care about name dropping we can both play that game.
The fact remains, If you take a Stock Intercooler off an FD and refit a FMIC you will be getting a More Efficant IC in every respect (your taking a big restriction out of the inlet run) the knock on is that you will need more fuel simple, when ever you need more fuel you need to tweek the map.
I would NOT recomend a Decat on a stock ems that is asking for trubble too, you are quite right about the Boost spike and because some do it more than others?? wtf? do you know this guys car? how do you know how it will react? His may be one that Spikes then add the new FMIC and our cold UK weather may hit Overboost running a bit lean and end his motor? if you are going to give advice don\'t give Bad advice.
I\'m not going to sit here arguing with you, the FD engine is much more Sensitive to A/F ratio\'s than a piston motor, so imho you do mod\'s in batches and have the Map tweeked to suit, it would be Dumb to swap 1 part them remap the car (not cost effective) but it would also be dumb to not tune after a Mod that changes the A/f ratio or makes the car spike outside its Map. Thats why i say you save up and do say the Fueling, Decat, IC and a Boost Tweek all in one go and you will know your safe.
Where is the double face palm smiley when you need it..ahh boi. Maybe you should learn how the Ecu manages the rotary engine. Here is my question to you then.. since changing an intercooler will be too efficient for the stock computer to manage and an after market Ecu is needed (rolling eyes)... then how does the Ecu cope with very cold nights with a stock computer on the stock ecu?trick question!! Surely there much be some magic going on in heaven to cause the car from not blowing up... in any case..... your probably set in your ways and don\'t \'need\' to learn anything new. Like i said, your nit completely wrong in your train of ghoughts, but not everyone has money right off the bat to do batches of mods,, and there are things that can be done to a fd without sending it to a tuner to pay hundreds of pounds to "tweek", when the stock Ecuador is More than capable is doing it\'s job.
To the op, forget what I said.. don\'t want anyone knocking on my door saying I owe them a motor, just listen to this guy. His way isn\'t wrong.. logic is a bit off but hey, no ones perfect ;).
Not Trolling are we....:2Rolleyes
Trying a ting you know.. all my other friends do it.lol
Ok this Dyno Print out, the only change is an Aftermarket SMIC being swapped for the FMIC and a fuel tweak for the extra cfm it\'s seeing. Its a bit hard to see but there is a Yellow line which is 0.8 bar and it was turned up for final run (1 bar) is the Top red one. (NOTE!! there was no faults or problems with the car and this was done back to back) yellow HP line finishes at 380ish and the torque aprox 330lbs as its a bit hard to see.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d26/Grizzly30/HP.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d26/Grizzly30/Torque1.jpg)
So.. your saying that changing to a more "efficient" intercooler with longer routing pipes vs the stock shirt routing piping, net you a .03 increase in boost? Really?!?!?.. nothing wrong there?!?! Where is that god dam double face palm smiley.
Do you understand how pressure works sir?
Not presure CFM
You understand that intercooler efficiency has nothing to do with boost pressure right?
Quote from: Indian;843853You understand that intercooler efficiency has nothing to do with boost pressure right?
You sir are some one that doesn\'t fully Understand ;)
I begging you to stop.. I can\'t even stop laughing.. omg. It not just the mere fact that your friend was running 300+hp with a stock intercooler that\'s making me laugh, but your correcting me on pressure vs cfm. . Talk about seeing the glass half full.
I\'m in tears...omg.Lmao
I would have to agree with Grizzly on everything that he\'s said.
You could fit a FMIC and everything might be fine but there is an element of a gamble, obviously not due to the temps involved as the stock ECU would compensate for this but the fact it is so cold and damp here exaggerates the improvement in efficiency.
As for downpipe and midpipe on a standard ECU, that\'s just crazy talk:eek::Laugh
Phil
Quote from: Grizzly;843855You sir are some one that doesn\'t fully Understand ;)
I Will say again, there is a difference between intercooler efficiency and psi drop/gain. Your talking about cooling verse flow buddie. Lol.. can\'t ...........b r e a t h... send help.
Quote from: philiwily;843857I would have to agree with Grizzly on everything that he\'s said.
You could fit a FMIC and everything might be fine but there is an element of a gamble, obviously not due to the temps involved as the stock ECU would compensate for this but the fact it is so cold and damp here exaggerates the improvement in efficiency.
As for downpipe and midpipe on a standard ECU, that\'s just crazy talk:eek::Laugh
Phil
Just leave him he\'s Trolling.
Lmao.. Rreinforcements! Now we\'\'re talking! This is getting better.. are you the tuner (money maker) or just a support friend?
I will try and make this clear and as simple as possible so you guys can understand.. unless the car is spiking(over boosting).. there is no where in hell having cold weather with cause the car to blow friging up. You think mazda built an only warm weather car or something?This is just sounding stupid now. The stock ecu will handle the variations by either retarding timing or adding more fuel to keep the optimum afr requirements.. go, read and learn how Ecu works.
For god sakes.. I can now understand why most if you guys will never past 400.
Quote from: Grizzly;843859Just leave him he\'s Trolling.
Oye! Just because someone doesn\'t agree with you, doesnt mean they are trolling. I have stated why and what I "believe" :2Rolleyes to be ok mods on a stock ecu. You don\'t agree.. then enlighten me in why each Will not work and also how you think having your friend change his intercooler after pasting 300 is ok..
So, You don\'t seem to be getting the extra power doesn\'t come from the Cooler air but the Volume of air, you are removing a restriction in the smaller IC so for the same say 15psi of boost you are Pushing more VOLUME of air into the Bore which needs more fuel. The added lower inlet temp will also add more hp if fueled correctly but is not the reason for the extra power.
Its the same Theory when you put a RW TB on, you are not cooling the air down just making a Cleaner run with less restriction = more power.
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee155/philiwilyrx7/image.jpg)
This is from a run last night, you believe that a standard ECU would know how much fuel to inject at WOT,really?
As for reinforcements, I don\'t know Grizzly or what he knows, but its clearly more than you, lol.
Dude! Explain to me how the stock intercooler is restricting the air in a stock turbo car? PleAse enlighten me. Then tell me how you increase the boost by routing longer pipes with a larger, thicker and longer core.. please explain .. what magic is happening here?
Quote from: philiwily;843864(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee155/philiwilyrx7/image.jpg)
This is from a run last night, you believe that a standard ECU would know how much fuel to inject at WOT,really?
As for reinforcements, I don\'t know Grizzly or what he knows, but its clearly more than you, lol.
Right.. and I presume your running the standard boost on stock turbo right? Cause I\'m suppose to be able to tell your mods by your pfc right?
There are always groupies around :2Confused
I\'m looking at this thread http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68207 and i can\'t help thinking you ither are Trolling or you didn\'t build that.
The stock IC is only good for Stock Boost, if you wind it up the IC won\'t be able to handle the extra flow so will act as a restriction, put a better flowing ic on and you will remove that Issue.
The fact you are singing the SMIC\'s Praises makes me think you haven\'t seen one, there very small. Forget FMIC you can get the same sort of Gain by putting a decent V-Mount on too, its all about getting a good flowing ic thats the right size for the Volume of air you are putting through it.
Actually, after some thought, you may be right.
I\'m going to sell my PFC and go back to a stocker.
Thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge.
Now I\'m away to meet Grizzly, we\'re going on a date.:rolleyes:
Oh that\'s mine alright. All 734whp when Steve Kan tuned it on his dyno. No Rw throttle body there.
Thanks for checking out my profile.
Let me enlighten you. People do not change the stock intercooler because of flow lol they change it because if cooling characteristics. It becomes heat soak very quickly, it doesn\'t flow less like what your jumping in. You should take some physics classes.
Btw; just to add to your lesson, go to any website that sells intercooler kits.. if you look closely, they will print their pistol drop.. not gain! Gosh man .. your thick
So i was right, Trolling it is then...............
Try Fitting WI so your air temp stays solid then try dynoing with a Stock, PFS SMIC and a FMIC and come back and tell me what extra power you get ;)
Quote from: philiwily;843871Actually, after some thought, you may be right.
I\'m going to sell my PFC and go back to a stocker.
Thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge.
Now I\'m away to meet Grizzly, we\'re going on a date.:rolleyes:
It\'s comments like this that shows the limits if your intelligence. Your one if those big spenders that don\'t go very fast arent you?
Quote from: Grizzly;843873So i was right, Trolling it is then...............
Again , trying to explain reasons for the change and I\'m trolling.. genius :evillaugh
Quote from: Grizzly;843873So i was right, Trolling it is then...............
Try Fitting WI so your air temp stays solid then try dynoing with a Stock, PFS SMIC and a FMIC and come back and tell me what extra power you get ;)
Dumb ass, no one is saying you might not make a bit more power changing intercoolers. I\'m questioning your logic as to why you got a boost increase when you changed to a bigger intercooler. Can you not read?
Again you prove how intelligent you are..
Lol, as fast as my very limited budget will let me, no 750bhp here.
But I do all my own building, tuning and mapping, so usually know a bit more than someone who just hands other people money. Wink wink.
I\'m going now, bye.
Lol. Never said I was a tuner. But I have whAt you lack.. common and logic sense. After whAt you displayed here, I would think about bringing a bicycle to your shop..building..wwhatever you say you have
Quote from: Indian;843876Dumb ass, no one is saying you might not make a bit more power changing intercoolers. I\'m questioning your logic as to why you got a boost increase when you changed to a bigger intercooler. Can you not read?
Again you prove how intelligent you are..
O man, No PRESURE increase. Lets spell this out..... The Boost stays the same but you get more Volume!!!
So 1 bar stock ic v\'s 1 bar V-Mount or FMIC. You will get more power with the aftermarket Intercooler at the SAME!!! boost presure because there is more VOLUME!!!! of air going through it.
Calling me Dumb?? I feel for you. Go and ask the Guy who Built your car and he will bring you up to speed.
Quote from: Grizzly;843879O man, No PRESURE increase. Lets spell this out..... The Boost stays the same but you get more Volume!!!
So 0.8 bar stock ic v\'s 0.8 bar V-Mount or FMIC. You will get more power with the aftermarket Intercooler at the SAME!!! boost presure because there is more VOLUME!!!! of air going through it.
Calling me Dumb?? I feel for you.
You\'ve got to be :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing kidding me right? Please tell me your joking with me on this ? Can believe I stayed up for this . Lmao
Just a quick question, do you think a To4e at 1 bar puts out the same HP as a S475 at 1 bar? on identical set ups? Or what about a T04E at 1 bar on a stock Motor would make the same power as a T04E at 1 bar on a Full Bridge?
Its all about getting as much Air in as you can for the set Boost presure, once you have done that you add fuel and you get Power.......
Quote from: Indian;843876Dumb ass, no one is saying you might not make a bit more power changing intercoolers. I\'m questioning your logic as to why you got a boost increase when you changed to a bigger intercooler. Can you not read?
Again you prove how intelligent you are..
I\'ll be Honist you are starting to confuse me now, so you argue you don\'t make any more power with an IC then you contridict your self and say you can? Then you Question my Logic ?? you have just said " no one is saying you might not make a bit more power changing intercoolers"
Btw tell me where i said anything about Boost Increase in Presure i said the VOLUME!! will increase when you remove restrictions at the same Boost Presure. Maybe thats your problem you don\'t know the Diffrence.
Quote from: Grizzly;843883Just a quick question, do you think a To4e at 1 bar puts out the same HP as a S475 at 1 bar? on identical set ups? Or what about a T04E at 1 bar on a stock Motor would make the same power as a T04E at 1 bar on a Full Bridge?
Its all about getting as much Air in as you can for the set Boost pressure, once you have done that you add fuel and you get Power.......
ahh boi.. your a daft one... There are so many components that affect the factor of output here... I wouldn\'t be able to tell you unless I look at the maps for both turbos.. just because it\'s bigger doesnt necessarily mean youll make more power at a particular psi than a smaller turbo, but I would have hope that you would know that and werent trolling :rolleyes:..
now your comparing a stock motor to a bridge motor??... wow... you soon tell me its impossible to make over 500 on a stock motor too right?
Quote from: Grizzly;843884I\'ll be Honist you are starting to confuse me now, so you argue you don\'t make any more power with an IC then you contridict your self and say you can? Then you Question my Logic ?? you have just said " no one is saying you might not make a bit more power changing intercoolers"
Btw tell me where i said anything about Boost Increase in Presure i said the VOLUME!! will increase when you remove restrictions at the same Boost Presure. Maybe thats your problem you don\'t know the Diffrence.
oye... ok got your CFM and boost pressure thing.... it was late and I was doing this on a phone last night... however...
here is where your logic seem mixed to me:
The stock IC is only good for Stock Boost, if you wind it up the IC won\'t be able to handle the
extra flow so
will act as a restriction, put a better flowing ic on and you will remove that Issue.
here is my Rebuttal:
First your theory on better airflow is all over the place.. you put more restrictions on air flow with longer pipes and more bends that the shorter run intercooler.
Again I will say this.. people change intercoolers due to cooling inefficiency air increase causes the by product of cooling inefficiency . You can push 50 psi of pressure through he stock intercooler and it will be fine.. However,it will not be able to cool the air effectively as say a larger core intercooler with more surface area would. FACT..
For example... the dodge srt4\'s: have a larger direct replacement intercooler for higher boosting cars... you take out the stock intercooler core and replace it with the upgraded one... factory routing and pipes...
case in point: http://www.modernperformance.com/product/MPx_Big_Front_Mount_Intercooler_03-05_Neon_SRT4/587
and
http://www.turboneonstore.com/customer/product.php?productid=647&cat=16&page=1
and here:
You don\'t seem to be getting the
extra power doesn\'t come from the Cooler air but the Volume of air[/B][/U], you are removing a restriction in the smaller IC so
for the same say 15psi of boost you are Pushing more VOLUME of air into the Bore which needs more fuel. The added lower inlet temp will also add more hp if fueled correctly but is not the reason for the extra power.
On the contrary, you do get more power from the lower charged air. it is a well known principle in the automotive world. Your volume theory does not work as i would expect that you know hot air expands right? It is all related to intercooler cooling characteristics. If your not changing your psi, then the only way to affect the motor with an intercooler to make more power is to cool the charge air more efficiently.
Maybe you should explain to me how the volume of air increases with an intercooler change and no psi change:
While you think about that,
lets me introduce some basic elementary physics to you:
volume= mass/density. so as you can see from the basic equation that volume is related to mass and density.
If you are not changing the mass(psi of air in the this case) then the only factor the change the volume is density... here is what Im trying to show you where your wrong... if you increase the density of air as what an more efficient intercooler does,then what happens to the volume? lets plug in some easy numbers...
using mass as a constant of say..10 (arbitrary number)
we have :
v= 10/ say 5 = 2 ... hope you agree here
now,
v= 10/ say 7(increase in density as what intercoolers are marketed for = 1.42... what happened to your volume?
Ok, I guess your going to say that the air is in a cylinder and your correct. however all your doing is routing an already quantified amount of air from one place to other and either heating or cooling it before reaching the throttle body. changing size isnt the highest factor here, its cooling at these moderate boost levels. Your force to change the size when you push more volume of air from the
Turbo. Having more volume with a bigger pipe and intercooler helps with dissipation of heat and increases cooling efficiency as air is no longer tightly packed and can be spread out into a bigger surface area(intercooler) so that the molecules can be cooled effectively while channeling the increased amount of air.
Bigger pipes will cause lag in the system, how is this more efficient? if there is an increase of volume by changing an intercooler then please explain how you will see a drop in response when the boost comes on? Surely the "increase in volume" would compensate for the new length of piping added.
please enlighten me.
Touching on the RW throttle body that your praising so much, . Remember the dyno they showed of how they gained around 10psi? well did you ask yourself what happened to the mass volume of air that passed the throttle body and entered the double trottlebodies?
think about it.. air velocity and channeling is the winner for this one.. some things arent just as they looked, there is a bit more of science behind them.
All of this is relative though, as my argument still stands that a stock turbo stock ecu rx7 with an upgraded intercooler is perfectly fine. :WaveBye
Quote from: Indian;843900ahh boi.. your a daft one... There are so many components that affect the factor of output here... I wouldn\'t be able to tell you unless I look at the maps for both turbos.. just because it\'s bigger doesnt necessarily mean youll make more power at a particular psi than a smaller turbo, but I would have hope that you would know that and werent trolling :rolleyes:..
now your comparing a stock motor to a bridge motor??... wow... you soon tell me its impossible to make over 500 on a stock motor too right?
Ok to make power you need fuel and air/Oxegen right? You can add Fuel very easy but to add more air at a set PSI is more difficult, you don\'t need to look at any Compressor map to say that the Bigger Turbo will put out Much more Volume of air at the same Boost presure so will make more Hp at that PSI?
When people started using WI they found that you can drop air temps dramatically, the knock on effect is that you COULD use no intercooler if you wanted which would give you the ideal flow (which is what i\'m talking about) but for people that use their cars on the road this really isn\'t ideal so they buy really good flowing Intercoolers, you said about Pressure drop across an IC as well, you know the idea is not to get a pressure drop don’t you? what i mean is if you bought for example a Apexi GT fmic you would see allot less drop than say a £50 Bar and plate IC of ebay, why\'s that? Because it flows air better? why spend all that time Port matching and gas flowing if the IC is letting you down? (the more air disturbance the less flow you will get)
It\'s painful that you think a Stock IC is as efficient as a Apexi GT at moving volme of air? now if you had said yes but the Turbo response would suffer i would agree (longer pipes take more filling etc) but we\'re not talking about that (even though my Dyno graph would say otherwise), we are talking about a car at 6k with a Bar of Boost going through it, wi is on full blast and the Inlet temp is 18deg on both runs. No trying to cover it up the Apexi WILL FLOW MORE AIR.
Now 50psi through a Stock IC, Yes of course you can put a 1/4" air line with 50psi coming out of it through the IC but your CFM will be low, i bet on a Stock ic at something mad like 100cfm you would struggle to flow 10psi through a stock IC let allone 50psi as i keep saying as the Volume Increase it finds areas of the inlet that causes disturbance or unclean flow and that causes a restriction almost like your going from a 3" pipe to a 2.5" pipe. You will always find power however small by doing the Little things (port matching so there isn\'t a step between manifolds, removing as many 90deg bends as poss, not using end tanks that force the air directly into the back of the tank etc) This is why a Side port motor Will never put as much air / volume in the bore as a P/P, even when the peripheral is a smaller area than the two combined side ports.
Now Stock motors, My Fav. I like to Keep my Ports small myself as i like the Fast gas flow for low end/Off boost torque and drivability. Yes 500hp can be made and Pete Riceracing has done it for quite some time. BUT!! he doesn\'t use Volume he uses Presure so where as a Bridge would be making that Hp at 1 bar Pete\'s ports are open half the time so his air speed has to be Dubble so this means Much more Presure to get the same Volume of Oxegen/Air into the bore (assuming his air temp is the same with all that WI he uses)... You could say "but he uses a SMIC" but he will be the first to tell you it would have gone allong time ago but he wanted the Stock as OEM look.
I wrote this a Little quick as i\'m off to work, i am guessing your going to say you disagree with it all and i\'m a Nob but there you go...........
Quote from: Indian;843914Touching on the RW throttle body that your praising so much
I was trying to give you an example of removing restrictions from the Inlet run thats proven to give more hp without touching the air temp, personaly really don\'t like RW Throttles (i have bored out stocker with a bit of air management) but the fact remains if you remove a restriction thats causeing an Air disturbance you will get a cleaner faster run and there for more power however small.
Huge front mount blocks your rad....v mount gotta be then answer.
Grizzly, you have much more patience than me, I\'d have left this "discussion" a long time ago.
Indian, please stop being such an arrogant keyboard warrior. Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them stupid so please stop insulting people and calling them names. You are being rude with your sarcastic comments so I struggle to take what you say seriously which is a shame as you obviously have your own opinions but you put them across in very patronising ways.
To quote the OP: "thinking about it though its only going to be colder air going into the engine, shouldnt be more air so the stock ecu should be able to auto adjust for this as though you were driving on a cold day?"
What if you drive the car on a cold day, this will have a double impact as the air will already be colder? You will be making the cooling system more efficient so you run the risk of the stock ECU not being able to cope with a larger than normal drop in intake temps. For the risk, how ever slight, I would say save for a PFC and remap. I swapped my stock IC for a much larger stock mounted IC and I saw a gain of 2 psi not to mention intake temps, not good for a stock ecu to deal with.
Quote from: Indian;843880Can believe I stayed up for this . Lmao
(http://media-cache0.pinterest.com/upload/83598136803013636_PJfqrb0t_b.jpg)
Quote from: Bobbit;844063Grizzly, you have much more patience than me, I\'d have left this "discussion" a long time ago.
:) at work and Board ;)
The thing is the Air temp won\'t make a big difference to the ECU (i think that’s what Indian was trying to say) as its been set up for low ambient temps as well as high, as i was trying to get across the extra power comes from another means (becomes really obvious when you run WI which IC\'s flow better than others) if you get one that flows really well you won\'t get any area\'s that slow the inlet air speed so more air into the bore and more air means more fuel is needed which makes power hence the Map change. (that’s what you can see on the Dyno i put up, that car Had wi fitted so no real change to the air temp that power difference is made by the better flowing IC)
Does that Make sense?
Sorry last post on this then i\'m going :)
If you put wi on your car and Just use water (no meth) you don\'t have to remap and your air temp will drop through the floor, if you fit a RW throttle body you don\'t see any Air temp diff but you do have to tweak your map and you will get Duno?? 15hp difference? that’s what i mean by better Flow is what you are gaining and where the power comes from.
But don\'t get Water and 50/50 Meth Mix confused one really does need a remap if you use it.