got my fd on the dyno today and im quite happy with the results considering im still on twins, im putting out 318.8 at the fly and 281.2 at the wheels :cheers
Good results Mark!!
Quote from: wolfie1;835870got my fd on the dyno today and im quite happy with the results considering im still on twins, im putting out 318.8 at the fly and 281.2 at the wheels :cheers
A very good result. What mods do you have on your car?
congrats on the results. i think a guy called warthog got 400 @ the wheels 455 @ the fly on his twins before.
thanks :Thumbs-up im currently running at .95bar boost and dont want to go above that, the mapper reckoned he could get 300bhp at the wheels safely after i get my ets fmic fitted, so i will let him take a look once it gets here and i put it on and let you know the results :D
That\'s good! What\'s your setup?
im running a completely decatted 3" system with a hks downpipe, turbo running at .95 bar, apexi ecu and commander, apexi intakes, all the intercooler pipes are 2.5" hard pipes, arc smic, 1680 secondries with an aeromotive fpr, air pump removal, all the pulleys are lightweight billet alloy except the air con 1, greddy elbow, hks twin power and a blitz bov. i think thats about it
Interesting,, i guess my car is looking good,,, did 323 at the flywheel and 289 at the wheels 0.8 bar boost and tunner had to stop at 6000 rpm as injector rate was 90%.
tunner said there is another 30 in there with fuel mods and no extra boost, so hoping to do 380 flywheel power with fuel and 1 bar boost.
i ran my original fd secondries at 95% for over a year with no problems before i got my 1680s and fpr in
Can i ask what does the extra few pounds of boost feel like my tunner basically didnt wind up the boost yet, wanna know what the extra boost feels like.
Im looking into buying BNR stage 3 twins because standard turbos are only good for 14psi,, then i can run 18psi.
Quote from: tiger18;835940Can i ask what does the extra few pounds of boost feel like my tunner basically didnt wind up the boost yet, wanna know what the extra boost feels like.
Im looking into buying BNR stage 3 twins because standard turbos are only good for 14psi,, then i can run 18psi.
Why do you say only good for 14 psi? My old fd is now running 18 psi with its new owner. There are things you can do to increase the efficiency of the twins.
You can run a mix of race fuel and vpower to reduce the risk of knock.
Water injection. Pre turbo, pre intercooler post intercooler.
This is all if you really want the twins and more power, if you want more power and to keep it simple then just go single turbo.
I just read and people tell me turbos start to take die very quickly after 14psi (even pip at WGT said he dont like to run anything above 14psi).
that is true a bar is the max you want to run the standard turbos at otherwise they wont last long, easier to go single. for me going single personally i think would ruin the original concept of the fd
Thats why i want the BNR twins otherwise i would have gone single years ago,, i like the twin idea. I have an aftermarket solenoid pack,, never had boost issues twins work like a dream just want more boost.
Im curious to know also has anyone got a set of them knightsports Rf420 on there car are they any good
I ran just a little over 1 bar when I had the car for 2 years solid, used the car all year round and kicked the crap out of it with no issues. If I had known about WI and what system to go for I would have used that to bring the temps down as the heat is a contributing factor to killing the twins.
I ran the turbos on a huge street port.
The BNRs are a lot of money and considering that you can\'t gain a huge amount more of HP it\'s not worth it in my eyes. There is a company working on a new twins setup using 2 gt28r turbos. Hoping to be able to achieve 500 in sequential setup. That would be a good option for keeping it twins
On american forum there is people with 400Rwhp thats gotta be 430/440 at the flywheel, that should be more than enough power for most people.
Quote from: tiger18;836010On american forum there is people with 400Rwhp thats gotta be 430/440 at the flywheel, that should be more than enough power for most people.
Yeah, don\'t believe a word of it. The world\'s most optimistic dyno\'s.
Grant what sort of power was you seeing at 1 bar?
Never dynod it, managed to burn out a carbon clutch though :(
so quite an impressive figure then!
Grant,, whats a good water set up, i was thinking of using a water meth 50/50 injection.
Get on the aqamist forum, good info on there. They also sell some good stuff
Quote from: wolfie1;835870got my fd on the dyno today and im quite happy with the results considering im still on twins, im putting out 318.8 at the fly and 281.2 at the wheels :cheers
That sounds like a nice set up you have there :)
There is allot of Speculation as to what the Twins can handle but unless you have had 360 bearings fitted, ported wastegate and LOTS of WI you really don\'t want to wind the boost up. I am sure you could run much more HP for 1 dyno run but honistly its just Pub talk because i bet you wouldn\'t get much Quality time with it :)
The Turbo responce you would get at 320hp would make a very nice street set up a bet your very pleased :)
yes i am thanks, it smokes m series z4\'s with the 3.2 and audi rs6\'s so it does me good
Twins are good fun :) you loose a bit of that Fun factor when you go Single with more HP, yes its quicker but responce is poor (next to a twin set up) and on the road most Singles are just too powerfull. Spoils the Fun :)
thats kinda what i think :King
you are all thinking of a big turbo setup.
if you choose a smaller turbo which flows more than the twins then you will get response and more HP than the twins. and a smaller single can run more boost. plus WI
does anyone know how many lbs/min the standard twins flow?
choosing your turbo for what you use the car for is what you should do, i have chosen a big turbo because i want a lot of HP and im running big bridge ports, and i want a drag car/ traffic light race destroyer/ annoyingly loud street cruiser. I say drag first because thats what i like.
so would a gt35r be a good turbo for a standard ported engine for street use?
Yep, that\'s what Carl was saying to me last week. There are other turbos that will do 400 HP with great response available.
This is a great little watch..
Although its not in english you get the idea of the difference in variations, like single or twin setup, 17" or 18" wheels or stripped interior etc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKCzl6Q7mqw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Enjoy
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836266you are all thinking of a big turbo setup.
if you choose a smaller turbo which flows more than the twins then you will get response and more HP than the twins. and a smaller single can run more boost. plus WI
I dissagree the stock twins make the best STREET set up, you can of course go single but the only thing that would spool anything like the stockers low down is a GT35R with a small .8 hot side and whats the point of that? Put a GT35R on with a 1.15 hot side and there will be a marked decrease in responce and torque like for like with the twins but you will get 450 hp top end, which in my opinion becomes a track day car (way too much atention on the street)
Take it from me, i have a Stock port motor running 450 hp and another at 500hp. I built them with a target HP in mind and there done so the Turbo runs out of efficancy at my target hp. I have used lots of messing about and diffrent forms of Port work to keep the low end Power/Torque but you is always comprimise when you go for more HP, as you are now is the best "Street" set up after that Single turbo\'s start to get slower spool time the bigger you go.
When you are looking for a street set up forget the Peak HP (7000rpm) you should be looking at the usable HP and torque (4k upto 6k on the street on boost and 2k-4k off boost torque).
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836266does anyone know how many lbs/min the standard twins flow?
The twins cheat :) One Turbo on its own runs out of Puff about 4k then the second Turbo comes in and Increases the Voluum of air thats being put out. Its No coincidence Mazda Built the car this way you get a solid torque line from 3k upto 6500 so it makes it very usable (masive power band) the Rotary has always had an Off boost issue with torque or lack of it so the Turbo Torque makes up for the short coming. Now if you put 1 turbo that has the same Out put as both twins you loose the very fast spool of a Turbo that is basicly too small for the job. Mazda where very clever when they designed the FD but age has taken its toll and things like the Vac pipes make it unreliable hence the reason Single turbo\'s are good. ;)
Quote from: JayD;836300This is a great little watch..
Although its not in english you get the idea of the difference in variations, like single or twin setup, 17" or 18" wheels or stripped interior etc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKCzl6Q7mqw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Enjoy
:) 350hp twin turbo v\'s a 550hp single in the upper band where its most powerfull ;) Good fun though.
It\'s a great idea the twins given that most manufactures are now adopting this setup for fast road cars but has anyone run a larger second turbo like the new street cars? Surely that will be more usable allowing high end power with fast response down low?
Quote from: JayD;836336It\'s a great idea the twins given that most manufactures are now adopting this setup for fast road cars but has anyone run a larger second turbo like the new street cars? Surely that will be more usable allowing high end power with fast response down low?
There is an Autox guy in the US who has put half a BRN into a stock twin turbo set up with 360 bearings so he can run 1 bar + all day, from what he\'s said it works really well but heat becomes the biggest issue with power on twins so its a catch 22 situation, you can have wide power band, fast spool but lower peak hp or smaller power band, respectable spool and more power.
I can imagine..
Good read this thread
I don\'t think you understand where I\'m coming from with using a smaller single turbo. A single simplifies things, a single reduces temperatures, a single can run up to 40psi if you so wish, the twins give heat which means loss of power and more chance of det.
You can\'t tell me that choosing a single turbo that spools up slightly later, at 3500rpms and gives you great power to 7000rpm and drops
Off isn\'t as good as the twins? It would have more hp and less heat. All this on a street car.
I can\'t see spending a fortune on BNRs just to gain 50hp credible, plus there\'s still all that heat!
My mate has had a number of 20B setups and was telling me this weekend about the first one he did. This was a stick port 20B with the 20B exhaust sleeves, with a gt42 turbo none ball bearing, now that\'s a big turbo even for a stock 20B, he had full boost by 3,000 and it held all the way to 8,000rpm, now that\'s a street setup, huge power band. Now take that setup and scale it down to a 13B. It would work, just got to choose the right combination.
My mate now has a 20B PP twin gt4088r setup and that is spooling the turbos on tick over;)
Quote from: Grizzly;836323I dissagree the stock twins make the best STREET set up, you can of course go single but the only thing that would spool anything like the stockers low down is a GT35R with a small .8 hot side and whats the point of that? Put a GT35R on with a 1.15 hot side and there will be a marked decrease in responce and torque like for like with the twins but you will get 450 hp top end, which in my opinion becomes a track day car (way too much atention on the street)
Take it from me, i have a Stock port motor running 450 hp and another at 500hp. I built them with a target HP in mind and there done so the Turbo runs out of efficancy at my target hp. I have used lots of messing about and diffrent forms of Port work to keep the low end Power/Torque but you is always comprimise when you go for more HP, as you are now is the best "Street" set up after that Single turbo\'s start to get slower spool time the bigger you go.
When you are looking for a street set up forget the Peak HP (7000rpm) you should be looking at the usable HP and torque (4k upto 6k on the street on boost and 2k-4k off boost torque).
A supercharger with turbo setup would be the best twin setup for the street, or compound turbo setup:)
I would bet my rx4, when finished, would beat a twin turbo setup on the street, why? Because I have more HP everywhere and have got a much better diff ratio to make my car better on acceleration rather than top speed, although the gearing does work out to give 180mph at 8500 rpm.
Im interested does anyone own BNR stage 3s or knightsports rf420s what are they like, spool and power output.
I don\'t like the twins. Nothing to do with the power band or performance, and everything to do with simplicity.
i.e. it is not a simple setup.
Forget raw pace a minute, keep things simple and get a more reliable car with less fault finding of small niggly issues!
If you don\'t have peak power targets and want a broad powerband, look into GT30 frame size free float turbos and work out what performance you would get. I imagine you\'d hit 320-350whp comfortably but more importantly you\'d get peak torque right down at the bottom of the rev range and hold it til 6500 or so easily enough. Similar power band to twins, no "kick" from the secondary turbo, just a nice big wedge of torque.
Personally if I was building a purely street machine, that would be the way I would go.
Quote from: wolfie1;835964that is true a bar is the max you want to run the standard turbos at otherwise they wont last long, easier to go single. for me going single personally i think would ruin the original concept of the fd
Fit\'lk Mark, your\'s a lovely car and better to keep that way. Mazda made a good job on any rotaries.
look around you in Scotland and there\'s nae proper tuners and only way to travelling south into Englandshire which is bit of no go due to petrol price.
Come over to my shop any time if you want a chat.
ID
This is what I\'m talking about, an undersized single turbo working its arse off. Probably never going to over speed it, especially
On stock ports, plus more boost can be used = more torque
Quote from: zeppelin101;836383I don\'t like the twins. Nothing to do with the power band or performance, and everything to do with simplicity.
i.e. it is not a simple setup.
Forget raw pace a minute, keep things simple and get a more reliable car with less fault finding of small niggly issues!
If you don\'t have peak power targets and want a broad powerband, look into GT30 frame size free float turbos and work out what performance you would get. I imagine you\'d hit 320-350whp comfortably but more importantly you\'d get peak torque right down at the bottom of the rev range and hold it til 6500 or so easily enough. Similar power band to twins, no "kick" from the secondary turbo, just a nice big wedge of torque.
Personally if I was building a purely street machine, that would be the way I would go.
That would be a useably fast car that you could drive every day. Imagine it lightened and caged on a trackday, that would be a serious weapon. No unpredictable boost spikes, as you get with ronnied twins, no violent surge like a big single, that would be very fast.
Quote from: Will66;836397That would be a useably fast car that you could drive every day. Imagine it lightened and caged on a trackday, that would be a serious weapon. No unpredictable boost spikes, as you get with ronnied twins, no violent surge like a big single, that would be very fast.
Yep, didn\'t Shaun run a setup like this but with a gt35? Would be good to hear his opinion
Shaun\'s got something like this but he\'s got something like 380 whp and a bucketload of torque. Looks like it drives nicely from following him.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836364I don\'t think you understand where I\'m coming from with using a smaller single turbo. A single simplifies things, a single reduces temperatures, a single can run up to 40psi if you so wish, the twins give heat which means loss of power and more chance of det.
You can\'t tell me that choosing a single turbo that spools up slightly later, at 3500rpms and gives you great power to 7000rpm and drops
Off isn\'t as good as the twins? It would have more hp and less heat. All this on a street car.
I can\'t see spending a fortune on BNRs just to gain 50hp credible, plus there\'s still all that heat!
My mate has had a number of 20B setups and was telling me this weekend about the first one he did. This was a stick port 20B with the 20B exhaust sleeves, with a gt42 turbo none ball bearing, now that\'s a big turbo even for a stock 20B, he had full boost by 3,000 and it held all the way to 8,000rpm, now that\'s a street setup, huge power band. Now take that setup and scale it down to a 13B. It would work, just got to choose the right combination.
My mate now has a 20B PP twin gt4088r setup and that is spooling the turbos on tick over;)
Yep, well when you can get 25mpg come back and we\'ll compair cars :)
Anyway think you have got it mixed up, STREET!! not talking drag here, Big ports mean No off boost torque... Simple.... I bet you car is really fast but for the Largest Power band Twins win every time and i\'m sure i have Dyno print outs saying that. Yes Twins make the most heat and are overly Complex but then there is NO Single set up now let allone 20 years ago that has the same Responce as a Turbo half its size.
Now i know you are trying to cover the Turbo\'s short comings with Big ports that are needed to spool them up quickly, thats not fair game, you find me 1 Single turbo that Makes 350hp and spools from 2500rpm on a Low overlap motor and has the same EGT\'s.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836368I would bet my rx4, when finished, would beat a twin turbo setup on the street, why? Because I have more HP everywhere and have got a much better diff ratio to make my car better on acceleration rather than top speed, although the gearing does work out to give 180mph at 8500 rpm.
Ok, Yep but you cruise on the Motor way at 3000rpm, still a Road car?
Get on a short twist Track where the Twins MUCH quicker out of corner Turbo responce can help its masive power disadvantage and you might get the idea of what Fast responce is.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836393This is what I\'m talking about, an undersized single turbo working its arse off. Probably never going to over speed it, especially
On stock ports, plus more boost can be used = more torque
LOL You copying me on FDUK :) (K2EDG)
You get the Picture Smaller turbo for your Goal the better, now imagen one too small for your goal but has a boost mid range so it can achive your goal, yes Boost Spikes as the second Turbo comes in but that can be tweaked so its Much smoother.
I Love Turbo\'s that are Matched to engines and you don\'t get any better matched that the stock twins? it\'s just the Jumps are usaly in 100hp\'s 350 all day the Twins are best, 450 GT35R (can you belive the 35R is still not the best choice for this HP level), 550 (well haven\'t got that far yet but i\'m sure some thing like a Z ;)
Quote from: Grizzly;836415LOL You copying my on FDUK :) (K2EDG)
You get the Picture Smaller turbo for your Goal the better, now imagen one too small for your goal but has a boost mid range so it can achive your goal, yes Boost Spikes as the second Turbo comes in but that can be tweaked so its Much smoother.
I Love Turbo\'s that are Matched to engines and you don\'t get any better matched that the stock twins? it\'s just the Jumps are usaly in 100hp\'s 350 all day the Twins are best, 450 GT35R (can you belive the 35R is still not the best choice for this HP level), 550 (well haven\'t got that far yet but i\'m sure some thing like a Z ;)
Yeah, I did agree with you on fduk. Didn\'t realise it was you:(
My input was for a person wanting more than 350hp and not wasting money on the BNRs. A 35R single would be a lot better simpler and more reliable. I will pm Shaun later and get him to share his setup and previous setup as his is the closest to a street engine setup.
I\'m sure this has got mixed up and confused some where along the way, i was trying to say the turbo set up he has now is made for "Street" it has plenty of Torque from 2500, powerfull enough to own so called quick cars / 99.9% of Boy racers while it keeps very fast almost NA Turbo responce with decent MPG/road manners about town. Of course if you did a 4000rpm rolling pull against a 500hp single the Twins will pull away to start with due to the responce then it would be even while the torque/hp picks up to the same level so would be even to say 6k where the Extra Grunt will pull you back.
Thing is with FD\'s 50hp isn\'t allot in the scheme of things at peak, you can really upset people with bigger hp when you start loosing weight out of the car as well as a really good usable power band. ;)
The Reality is where can you use the HP? even if you take a 450hp fd to a track day that sort of HP will kill pads and tyres really quick, the other thing is at that level your going to be making just as much heat as the 350hp twins the diffrence is your more likly to have WI/big IC on a 450hp fd so you don\'t see it so much. So for me 350 is the ideal Street power (you can run a nice quiet exhaust, keep the air con and don\'t have to worry about leaving your diff/gear box at a set of lights :))
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836416Yeah, I did agree with you on fduk. Didn\'t realise it was you:(
I just Like arguing :) tbh its more fun on FDUK because there Drag boys chirp up and they see every thing as one number, ither the Peak number you get on a Dyno or the Time you get at the Strip. So 500hp will always beat 450hp!! Right ;)
Quote from: Grizzly;836423I just Like arguing :) tbh its more fun on FDUK because there Drag boys chirp up and they see every thing as one number, ither the Peak number you get on a Dyno or the Time you get at the Strip. So 500hp will always beat 450hp!! Right ;)
Haha yeah, a lot of people also don\'t realise is changing the gearing. Different gear set or different diff ratio. This can help make a car faster, the 4.7 diff in my rx4 should prevent me from dropping out of my power band, hoping the be on full boost by 4500 and pulling all the way to 8500. I have just ordered a pre turbo only WI kit, should make things interesting.
Got to Love Old school :) be good to see an RX4 picking its feet up ;)
Quote from: Grizzly;836429Got to Love Old school :) be good to see an RX4 picking its feet up ;)
Wheel stands may happen if I get a PP turbo in there and some race fuel!!:D
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836393This is what I\'m talking about, an undersized single turbo working its arse off. Probably never going to over speed it, especially
On stock ports, plus more boost can be used = more torque
Doing some brief calcs, I reckon you could hit 1bar boost by 3000rpm using a GT3076R without breaking a sweat.
Say you aimed for around 350whp - maybe 1.3-1.5bar boost. Given the small hot side on a 3076R you\'re going to end up with some restriction sooner rather than later, but it would be a mid-range torque machine.
I don\'t think a setup on twins would know which way a car setup like that had gone.
You should be able to just about avoid surge issues as well with such a turbo which doesn\'t seem to necessarily be the case with the GT35s.
As a tractable mid-range single setup, I reckon that would be pretty hard to beat.
That\'s only looking at Garrett as well, I haven\'t even considered what might be in BWs lineup or anyone elses, there may be something with a more meaty hotside.
As an aside, your still right in the mid 70s efficiency wise so your heat conversion rate against boost is very respectable.
Iv just had a brain wave!! Borgwarner EFR turbos!!!! Boom response and top end power. Shame they\'re expensive and as rare as hens teeth
And round we go again ;)
I atualy Know some one with a GT30R fitted, he is using a T3 .7 Hot side and it picks up more or less like an NA but you can feel the power just die at about 5500 rpm like you have let off the throttle (he runs aprox 310rwhp not sure what boost but i know its Maxed out) but his torque at 4k is the same as Mine its just he has twice my Torque at 3000 :) but he\'s done that for a reason (he plays at Auto x)
The mad thing is it still spools up low down about the same speed as a set of Stock twins :)
GT35r\'s are Over rated if you ask me, Good as a plug and play turbo yes but i have a Turbo thats comonly found and 10+ years old, ok its a bit tweaked and has a very good quality 360 bearing in it but it pulls the best Power curve i\'ve come across (450hp at the fly). The best thing is its 100% reliable.
Its not hard to select the Right turbo for the Job you just have to know whats about and not get sucked into the Hype.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836447Iv just had a brain wave!! Borgwarner EFR turbos!!!! Boom response and top end power. Shame they\'re expensive and as rare as hens teeth
Expencive... Yeh rare Urm maybe ;)
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836440Wheel stands may happen if I get a PP turbo in there and some race fuel!!:D
Hello Grant, forget about pp turbo, go for semi-pp turbo and it\'ll blow off any thing on the dragstrip. canna explained why on this forum but know it too well ;)
>>>>semi- pp turbo.<<<<<
Quote from: Grizzly;836517GT35r\'s are Over rated if you ask me, Good as a plug and play turbo yes but i have a Turbo thats comonly found and 10+ years old, ok its a bit tweaked and has a very good quality 360 bearing in it but it pulls the best Power curve i\'ve come across (450hp at the fly)
There are better units out there.
RE: The GT30, I did say mid-range torque machine ;) Depends what you\'re after of course.
How anyone can claim flywheel horsepower with an arbitrary percentage increase though without sticking the engine on a proper engine dyno still defeats me, especially when the cars in question are old.
Quote from: RotorHeid;836520Hello Grant, forget about pp turbo, go for semi-pp turbo and it\'ll blow off any thing on the dragstrip. canna explained why on this forum but know it too well ;)
>>>>semi- pp turbo.<<<<<
Too much complication in my eyes for semi pp, lots of fab work. Plus a full pp sounds epic.
Why can\'t you explain on here? Email me if you like. grant.monkhouse@hotmail.co.uk
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836528Too much complication in my eyes for semi pp, lots of fab work. Plus a full pp sounds epic.
Why can\'t you explain on here? Email me if you like. grant.monkhouse@hotmail.co.uk
Not complication to me and explaining in English is...
Semi p/p are great if you copy Logans design at Defined Autoworks but box off both Inlets and Turbo it :)
Always going to be better if you can find a way to keep the Primary port away from the P/P keep the Velocity up for off boost driving (thats the biggest down fall of the P/P imho) ;)
Quote from: zeppelin101;836526RE: The GT30, I did say mid-range torque machine ;) Depends what you\'re after of course.
Hehe...... I want it ALL!!! :)
Quote from: zeppelin101;836526How anyone can claim flywheel horsepower with an arbitrary percentage increase though without sticking the engine on a proper engine dyno still defeats me, especially when the cars in question are old.
There are so many variables that its a pointless exercise so a smart man uses it as a guide not gospel. But its some thing to compair, you know your on the right path when your 70lbs of torque at the hubs at say 4500 (the dyno in\'t going to be that far off ;))
It\'s inferred from a measurement :confused: So why start quoting an assumed value when there is an actual measured value there lol
Completely illogical!
some dyno can be and some dyno operators change settings to make you see what you want!
Quote from: Grizzly;836563Hehe...... I want it ALL!!! :
There are so many variables that its a pointless exercise so a smart man uses it as a guide not gospel. But its some thing to compair, you know your on the right path when your 70lbs of torque at the hubs at say 4500 (the dyno in\'t going to be that far off ;))
Quote from: JayDee;836574some dyno can be and some dyno operators change settings to make you see what you want!
Jay what would be your opinion on either a small single turbo on stock ports or the twins with all the complication. Not asking for any trade secrets, just what you would prefer.
What size turbo would you use etc?
Why do people get hung up on flywheel horsepower? The power at the wheels is what is driving you down the road.
Quote from: zeppelin101;836571It\'s inferred from a measurement :confused: So why start quoting an assumed value when there is an actual measured value there lol
Completely illogical!
Because a. Every one else\'s is too so easy to compair b. because it looks better :) c. its only an Educated guess anyway so who cares? d. when you compair it to say a R35 or a stock super car there all in Fly figures.
All that Matters is you know if the HP qouted is Fly or Hubs, Fly is of course callculated from the hub figure but hey the hub figure is an educated guess too..So? A Chassis dyno is a Tool to set cars up the Figures are just a peice of paper you can show your mates :)
Will66, why don\'t you change your sig if you feel like that? or do you like the higher Fly figure?
Quote from: JayDee;836574some dyno can be and some dyno operators change settings to make you see what you want!
Don\'t i know it, every one is so hung up on Peak HP nowadays. So they give you what you want. Its why i use a Dyno i know reads lower than most other makes/models and i make sure its set the same for each run so i can compair and use what i\'ve lernt. I\'m sure my car is running on the rich side so could proberly get some more from it but i hit the number i was looking for so it has a safe map that i get 25mpg and a nice curve, is good for me. Now since it was set up i have run it on two other make Chassis dyno\'s localy and have both read higher numbers :) i have also run it with a V-Box which i was also happy with. So i\'m happy my goal hp is going to say min of 370rwhp on any calibrated Dyno i put the car on not many can say that.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836576Jay what would be your opinion on either a small single turbo on stock ports or the twins with all the complication. Not asking for any trade secrets, just what you would prefer.
What size turbo would you use etc?
At 350hp at the fly ;) You have to have a target to go off? oviously 300hp will need a diffrent turbo to 500hp... I don\'t question anything over 350 needs a Single turbo what i am saying is under 350hp (and if all the vac assembly is in good order) twins make the better choice for a ROAD car.
In the case of my signature, it defines the model of the car. I wouldn\'t ever bother taking it near a dyno, there\'s no point, it\'s a stock motor running a few bolt ons and its AFRs sit nicely around 12:1 on WOT throughout the rev range. Whatever power it does have is fully exploitable by the chassis though
Quote from: Grizzly;836591All that Matters is you know if the HP qouted is Fly or Hubs, Fly is of course callculated from the hub figure but hey the hub figure is an educated guess too..So? A Chassis dyno is a Tool to set cars up the Figures are just a peice of paper you can show your mates :)
The flywheel figure is an arbitrary percentage based on the drivetrain layout a car has, hardly the height of educated guesswork!
A dyno is only as accurate as the data that is put into it. I know this from first hand experience doing emissions certification for an OEM.
You can usually tell how a dyno is run (ie, how much they "tinker") within the first five minutes of being there. The only place in the UK I would take my car for an even remotely honest dyno assessment is Surrey Rolling Road. Frankly though, if it feels fast then that is usually good enough. The majority of people can\'t quantify what a number feels like in terms of acceleration.
My mate tells me regularly he drives a 440hp vehicle. It just so happens it\'s a HGV lol
with probaly twice as much torque!!
laptimes, terminal speeds and times are good indicators of power
and also biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigggg burnouts:D;):)
Ok just to clear this up 100% because this is well off track now, out of Intrest have any of you had both Twin turbo set up and Single turbo set up running decent power? Lower HP FD\'s are more Fun to drive on twisty roads and short tracks, Big HP FD\'s are much more fun when you have a decent Strate or a Dual carrageway.
Hence why i say Twins are more fun.
Quote from: zeppelin101;836634The only place in the UK I would take my car for an even remotely honest dyno assessment is Surrey Rolling Road.
Honist? be carfull using that word ;)
I thought you where clued up on Dyno\'s, i Would never Use a Barrel Dyno, not only does the wheel size and Tyre type play more of a Factor you don\'t have to use Straps on a Hub dyno. I don\'t think its the Dyno you mean but the people who use it?
i will be having my car on a hub dyno, simply because i dont want it falling off. loll
LOL that too :)
Always fun watching this (not that i dislike evo\'s at all :) )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKFGr_mkQaA
Or you have two large guys in the boot :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yMd2n66uiQ&feature=related
Quote from: Grizzly;836659LOL that too :)
Always fun watching this (not that i dislike evo\'s at all :) )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKFGr_mkQaA
Or you have two large guys in the boot :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yMd2n66uiQ&feature=related
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha seen that before
Do you think they bought some better straps after that :) (well both of them lol)
Just watching some Dyno fails and this poped up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5TWJ0Tbizc not seen this vid for years (must have been done 10 years ago now), Scoots Semi P/P doing a 700hp run back in the day :)
Quote from: Grizzly;836652I thought you where clued up on Dyno\'s, i Would never Use a Barrel Dyno, not only does the wheel size and Tyre type play more of a Factor you don\'t have to use Straps on a Hub dyno. I don\'t think its the Dyno you mean but the people who use it?
There is nothing inherently wrong with a barrel dyno. The software, or rather how/who sets it up however is a whole other horrible can of worms.
What is the car being used for?
Just to clear things up I have no problem with stock ports, with small singles and twins its not worth opening the engine up for a marginal top end gain which will be limited by the turbo anyway.
I like the twins, when I map them I run the first turbo higher i.e 1.1 on the first and 1 bar on the second turbo, this smoothes out the power delivery and gives a great bottom end
Imho
The only down side is reliability of the rats nest, if the simplification is carried out it should be fine. Plus the cost is a lot less than going for a small single.
This is if I wanted @ 400 anymore then single
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836576Jay what would be your opinion on either a small single turbo on stock ports or the twins with all the complication. Not asking for any trade secrets, just what you would prefer.
What size turbo would you use etc?
Quote from: JayDee;836704What is the car being used for?
Just to clear things up I have no problem with stock ports, with small singles and twins its not worth opening the engine up for a marginal top end gain which will be limited by the turbo anyway.
I like the twins, when I map them I run the first turbo higher i.e 1.1 on the first and 1 bar on the second turbo, this smoothes out the power delivery and gives a great bottom end
Imho
The only down side is reliability of the rats nest, if the simplification is carried out it should be fine. Plus the cost is a lot less than going for a small single.
This is if I wanted @ 400 anymore then single
For a street car, the OP was wondering about upgrading to the BNR twins, I think, just to gain the ability to run more psi, 18psi. Although I said for the cost and the gain it would be a better option to go for a smaller single turbo.
A gtx35R or possibly a gt30R. These would be good for 450hp, especially the gtx35R. And still give good response, not as quick as the twins but close too it
I would go small single rather than bnr, I would worry about the heat build up with a gt30
with prolonged hard use on the turbine side.
The best street turbo for a rex I found is a kkk27 t3 flange, full boost by 3600 and went on to 440 atw in 2005 a to4s or a t62 all work well without the cost of the gtx turbo
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836711For a street car, the OP was wondering about upgrading to the BNR twins, I think, just to gain the ability to run more psi, 18psi. Although I said for the cost and the gain it would be a better option to go for a smaller single turbo.
A gtx35R or possibly a gt30R. These would be good for 450hp, especially the gtx35R. And still give good response, not as quick as the twins but close too it
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836711For a street car, the OP was wondering about upgrading to the BNR twins, I think, just to gain the ability to run more psi, 18psi. Although I said for the cost and the gain it would be a better option to go for a smaller single turbo.
A gtx35R or possibly a gt30R. These would be good for 450hp, especially the gtx35R. And still give good response, not as quick as the twins but close too it
The GTX series only seem to show their benefits in practise up top. There is little to be gained at bottom end from the applications I\'ve seen them in so far.
Quote from: JayDee;836716I would go small single rather than bnr, I would worry about the heat build up with a gt30
with prolonged hard use on the turbine side.
The best street turbo for a rex I found is a kkk27 t3 flange, full boost by 3600 and went on to 440 atw in 2005 a to4s or a t62 all work well without the cost of the gtx turbo
So it\'s only 1,000 rpm spool up slower but much greater power. Plus once your rolling you would be doubtful to go below that rpm, if a driver did then they clearly not drivIng hard enough
Yeh would make a good Upgrade but ££££ the twins make the best road car and if you wanted anything close to it you would have to spent what 2k?+ thats if you could lay your hands on a K27 kit? (i like the big Rx6 too ;) )
So the way i look at it you ither run twins at 350hp or you go for 500hp because there isn\'t much diffrence in the prices to do anyway. So the question is what is what do you want?
The best way is not to bother, Have fun in your FD then when you want to get more power sell it and buy a decent one done, you will save a packet. (by that time you will be able to spot a lemon ;) )
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836736So it\'s only 1,000 rpm spool up slower but much greater power. Plus once your rolling you would be doubtful to go below that rpm, if a driver did then they clearly not drivIng hard enough
Yep i don\'t question having a single turbo is nice but Twins do the job and if your happy with the power Why spend the money? as i keep saying Twins make the best road cars, every one keep saying but this and but that, at the end of the day if properly maintained the stack of bills you have will be a lot smaller running 350hp on twins and on the road most people will be more than happy. Single turbos big or small are only done if you are sick of the 20 year old Twins assembly playing up if they have not had the proper treatment or simply want more power but for the Money, Driving experiance, being able to drive it fast with lower driver skill, wet weather driving etc etc etc Twins............. Before Going single really think about what your doing. First time i went Single turbo i was Gutted, i put a T04R on a large street port then ran it at 320rwhp LOL Dumbest thing i think i have ever done, looking back i should have wound it up but with the dodgy MPG, big clutch and Hard suspension it felt bad to drive as it was (found myself enjoying driving a Corsa so it had to go :) )
Yeh without a doubt your looking a 2k for a single conversion.
I really enjoyed the twins, non sequential, huge street port, it was great and when you got into it, it was very fast. But I wanted more as I gOt used to the acceleration, only thing I needed was a single turbo as I had all the supporting mods for a single. However I sold it to concentrate on the 4 and buy a house.
The setup in the 4 is going to be crazy, BP turbo street/strip car, running a Haltech.
What do you think to a better ecu on a street car, yes the apexi is more than capable but the ecu I have got and some of the new range is just amazing, setup is a lot easier using an afr table and the quick learn function;):D
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836756What do you think to a better ecu on a street car, yes the apexi is more than capable but the ecu I have got and some of the new range is just amazing, setup is a lot easier using an afr table and the quick learn function;):D
Well tbh i have only ever run PFC\'s i did have a Haltech with the Haltech coils etc on a Turbo2 and it worked really well but tbh if i was going to buy a new ECU now i would have to decide if i wanted to Keep the OMP or not? I will be changing it at some point becuase i don\'t like using the stock Loom so pre mix might be the price to pay for that? but hey you can buy a M2R with a loom for less than a brand new FD engine loom and PFC second hand.
But i think the PFC is kind of the standard aftermarket EMS tbh.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836756I really enjoyed the twins, non sequential, huge street port, it was great and when you got into it, it was very fast. But I wanted more as I gOt used to the acceleration, only thing I needed was a single turbo as I had all the supporting mods for a single. However I sold it to concentrate on the 4 and buy a house.
Just out of Intrest when you say you had a Huge street port did you have cold starting issues? I only ask because i have a ITO Wild port motor and even though its got really good compression it is a pig until its a bit warm even with all the cold start stuff still on and working, also i noticed at RS the cars with more agressive street ports didn\'t like starting when cold. But tbh mine is about as wild as you can go on the opening timing without a Bridge so maybe it just wants a decent map next time it goes in the car :) I\'m getting a bit of collection of motors here now :) i also have James old 9 second motor in the garage ;)
Car started fine cold, even in minus temps in the winter when I went out in it. In those conditions
It even brapped. Carl said to me that we couldn\'t squeeze a bridge on there even if I wanted as it would be difficult and very small. My dad ported the irons using an RB template but then said they weren\'t big and went as far as he dare with advice from Carl. Even Carl said they were big. Lol
Shouldn\'t really have starting and cold start problems, just needs time playing with the settings and sometimes ignoring the wideband!! That must be James old engine from previous tuner ;-)
Quote from: Grizzly;836765Just out of Intrest when you say you had a Huge street port did you have cold starting issues? I only ask because i have a ITO Wild port motor and even though its got really good compression it is a pig until its a bit warm even with all the cold start stuff still on and working, also i noticed at RS the cars with more agressive street ports didn\'t like starting when cold. But tbh mine is about as wild as you can go on the opening timing without a Bridge so maybe it just wants a decent map next time it goes in the car :) I\'m getting a bit of collection of motors here now :) i also have James old 9 second motor in the garage ;)
O ok so yours where smaller than mine, These are not what you would call an every day Port they are much further than i or anyone i\'ve seen dare go, they leave the side seal unsuported which is a little mad and i think the Rotors are scalloped too (i\'ve had it a while so can\'t remember if it had that option) but hey it Works :) i have his Agressive street port template and he estimates them being 30% bigger than that LOL TBH it idles very Brapy so i think he\'s done the Primarys very large too and the timing must be verging on a Bridge. (guy i use to set up my engines isn\'t too hot on overlap turbo\'s which proberly explains allot)
Pfc work and you can make the car run really nice and smooth, especially if you use all the settings it has to offer to help you, eg I have never seen one setting used which helps with throttle tip in no end!!
But it does not compare to a haltech or Motec, they take time to do right, but it is well worth it
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836756Yeh without a doubt your looking a 2k for a single conversion.
I really enjoyed the twins, non sequential, huge street port, it was great and when you got into it, it was very fast. But I wanted more as I gOt used to the acceleration, only thing I needed was a single turbo as I had all the supporting mods for a single. However I sold it to concentrate on the 4 and buy a house.
The setup in the 4 is going to be crazy, BP turbo street/strip car, running a Haltech.
What do you think to a better ecu on a street car, yes the apexi is more than capable but the ecu I have got and some of the new range is just amazing, setup is a lot easier using an afr table and the quick learn function;):D
Quote from: JayDee;836777Shouldn\'t really have starting and cold start problems, just needs time playing with the settings and sometimes ignoring the wideband!! That must be James old engine from previous tuner ;-)
Yeh its the Era/Reworx engine, more out of playing with an Overlap engine that hasn\'t cost me a fortune than anything else.
Quote from: Grizzly;836779guy i use to set up my engines isn\'t too hot on overlap turbo\'s which proberly explains allot
If you can make use of scavenging at lowish RPM there are enormous gains to be had in torque.
Quote from: JayDee;836780Pfc work and you can make the car run really nice and smooth, especially if you use all the settings it has to offer to help you, eg I have never seen one setting used which helps with throttle tip in no end!!
But it does not compare to a haltech or Motec, they take time to do right, but it is well worth it
Do you rate the M2R? I was told by a mate to go for the Haltech E11 v2 but there is a bit of a Price diffrence (can get the Motech for cupple of hundred quid cheaper :) ) Not really read up as its a job for the winter but as we\'re on the subject :)
Quote from: zeppelin101;836782If you can make use of scavenging at lowish RPM there are enormous gains to be had in torque.
Well last Bridge engine i had was a bit of a fail tbh but that was a few years ago (10+ years aprox maybe more) and i think they have progresed allot since then.
Don\'t get me wrong i like how they Pick up mid range but the off boost and every day driving MPG etc made me think they where not for me (didn\'t have a second car at the time)
Don\'t think i am a Noob when it comes to Porting i have built a few myself and had a cupple built by some big names ;) Just doesn\'t mean i can set the dam things up :)
The M2R is still on James car!!, i like it, simple but works, again just needs time like any ecu but the car runs sweet on it.
Q. Guys with big ports when is your peak power and torque, as James makes peak torque at over 8k!! and we could go bigger but there is much more to porting than just the port face.
On his setup he ran a sub 10 at 145ish at .8 with a i admit peaky power graph, but suited to the application, i wouldn\'t run this type of porting on a road car.
Quote from: Grizzly;836783Do you rate the M2R? I was told by a mate to go for the Haltech E11 v2 but there is a bit of a Price diffrence (can get the Motech for cupple of hundred quid cheaper :) ) Not really read up as its a job for the winter but as we\'re on the subject :)
Quote from: JayDee;836785Q. Guys with big ports when is your peak power and torque, as James makes peak torque at over 8k!! and we could go bigger but there is much more to porting than just the port face.
Well yes i learnt that unfortunatly, i went from "As big as poss" to as small as poss :) Thats why i look at it as the bigger the port the higher up the rev range you go. I know its not exactly right but its one of the reasons my Large Street port went more for opening than Closing and i would put money on the Port face had about 1/10th of the time spent on it next to the runner and Bowl. But you live and Learn :)
The engine i have just done has kept very close to stock timing, just tweaked a bit to get the peak power up a little and again allot of time spent on flow. :)
Quote from: Grizzly;836783Do you rate the M2R? I was told by a mate to go for the Haltech E11 v2 but there is a bit of a Price diffrence (can get the Motech for cupple of hundred quid cheaper :) ) Not really read up as its a job for the winter but as we\'re on the subject :)
I have the e11 v2 :D bargain price.
I don\'t know what to expect from my car until its running and rolling, I trust Carl in what he will have done on the porting and he knows that I prefer drag racing to anything else, if it\'s a :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: to drive around town then so be it, as long as I can lay down a 10 without a cage I\'m happy. Then the cage goes in and boost goes up.
Quote from: JayDee;836785The M2R is still on James car!!, i like it, simple but works, again just needs time like any ecu but the car runs sweet on it.
Q. Guys with big ports when is your peak power and torque, as James makes peak torque at over 8k!! and we could go bigger but there is much more to porting than just the port face.
On his setup he ran a sub 10 at 145ish at .8 with a i admit peaky power graph, but suited to the application, i wouldn\'t run this type of porting on a road car.
Peak torque over 8k?? Which boost setting is that on? Saying that though what is the engine revving too?
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836788Peak torque over 8k?? Which boost setting is that on? Saying that though what is the engine revving too?
All of them :) ;)
That was at 1.8bar engine revving to 10.5k on the dyno, the torque curve was very flat from about 6 to 6.5k only varying about 10 to 20 ft/Ib
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836788Peak torque over 8k?? Which boost setting is that on? Saying that though what is the engine revving too?
Do you have a dyno print out of the HP and torque?
Grant, what WI kit are you going to use on your RX4?
Somewhere yes, will dig it out
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836804Do you have a dyno print out of the HP and torque?
There is no reason why your car should be that bad to drive around town, especially on a haltech, well worth the time to get it running well. We have had a pfc running a semi pp!!
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Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836787I have the e11 v2 :D bargain price.
I don\'t know what to expect from my car until its running and rolling, I trust Carl in what he will have done on the porting and he knows that I prefer drag racing to anything else, if it\'s a :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: to drive around town then so be it, as long as I can lay down a 10 without a cage I\'m happy. Then the cage goes in and boost goes up.
Call me weird but I would be disappointed if something that ran 10 second 1/4 mile passes was a docile machine around town. I like the idea of something being a bit of a pig to drive slowly so it feels even more special on the open road or the track. It is impressive that you can make something that you can take to the shops like your daily then take it to the track and run 10 second 1/4 miles or 56 second laps at Brands Hatch but I quite like the idea of driving some recalcitrant beast around town only to hit the throttle and disappear in a cloud of noise.
Quote from: Will66;836812Call me weird but I would be disappointed if something that ran 10 second 1/4 mile passes was a docile machine around town. I like the idea of something being a bit of a pig to drive slowly so it feels even more special on the open road or the track. It is impressive that you can make something that you can take to the shops like your daily then take it to the track and run 10 second 1/4 miles or 56 second laps at Brands Hatch but I quite like the idea of driving some recalcitrant beast around town only to hit the throttle and disappear in a cloud of noise.
The question is at what point do you give up your Easy to drive half decent on juice FD and go big? 500hp? 600? you can make a 500hp FD very tame on the road imho there is no need until you start seeing big numbers, even then i think its all about who you get to port it / set it up. Personally i think there are very few people that can Set something like a Bridge up Properly. As Mr D says there is big diffrence between a Drag set up and Road.
Quote from: JayDee;836811There is no reason why your car should be that bad to drive around town, especially on a haltech, well worth the time to get it running well. We have had a pfc running a semi pp!!
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Was that eds car? Steve Garbutt had his full PP turbo setup running on the apexi, but they swapped it out for the Haltech I now own. He said even using the quick learn function with the Haltech the car was a different beast, it drove better at low rpms, and was much smoother and crisper throughout the range. This is why I bought the Haltech from him, if I would have had the money at the time I would have had the PP setup he was selling but didn\'t :(
Have either you, jaydee and grizzly, ever calculated the volume of your inlet piping and IC setups.
I did for my setup on my car versus a front mount setup using 3" piping instead of the 4" that I am using, and the 4" system has a lower total volume. Now what I\'m trying research and learn is air volume versus air flow as I was thinking my 4" piping was too big but like I said it is actually smaller in volume than a 3" piped front mount configuration.
So the volume being lower does this mean I have better flow? Or do I have less flow due to the size but have a large volume of ready to be pushed into the engine and helping with top end HP as small diameter plenums can be a restriction for top end power.
I personally think I am worrying about it too much but would like to know if it is right.
When the car is running I will know if it\'s working how I want it to be but until then iv got to learn/research.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836821Have either you, jaydee and grizzly, ever calculated the volume of your inlet piping and IC setups.
I did for my setup on my car versus a front mount setup using 3" piping instead of the 4" that I am using, and the 4" system has a lower total volume. Now what I\'m trying research and learn is air volume versus air flow as I was thinking my 4" piping was too big but like I said it is actually smaller in volume than a 3" piped front mount configuration.
So the volume being lower does this mean I have better flow? Or do I have less flow due to the size but have a large volume of ready to be pushed into the engine and helping with top end HP as small diameter plenums can be a restriction for top end power.
I personally think I am worrying about it too much but would like to know if it is right.
When the car is running I will know if it\'s working how I want it to be but until then iv got to learn/research.
TBH its hard to beat the way a FMIC cools a large volume of air quickly using the best source of outside air to do it.
The run length doesn\'t make as much difference as you would expect, on boost the air is traveling so fast that a good IC area to Charge contact is Important while keeping good flow and not causing a bottle neck, you can have the Inlet Charge going through a Block of ICE but if the volume of air is moving quick enough it will not be making enough Contact to drop the temps.
An example of this is a mate who went from a very good PFS SMIC with a cold air duct etc to a massive Blitz FMIC, now you would expect the response to suffer but because the air entering the engine was cooler and denser it made More hp all the way through the rev range.
I think V-mounts and FMIC\'s work the best for ovious reasons where SMIC\'s and Charge coolers simply can\'t handle the volume for prelonged periods.
No not eds cars, all I did was re scale the table in vacuum as there is a small window the pp operates in, so it just needs more resolution in that area that\'s all!!
Quick learn as in closed loop?
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836820Was that eds car? Steve Garbutt had his full PP turbo setup running on the apexi, but they swapped it out for the Haltech I now own. He said even using the quick learn function with the Haltech the car was a different beast, it drove better at low rpms, and was much smoother and crisper throughout the range. This is why I bought the Haltech from him, if I ould have had the money at the time I would have had the PP setup he was selling but didn\'t :(
Have you seen my charge cooler? :D (http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc507/grantmonkhouse/0B6A5CC5-A4EE-48E3-B215-3B6A4F757939-14594-00001D5F39BABE13.jpg)
The cookers rad is at back of my car underneath, piped front to back inside the car. With the amount of water volume on the system I don\'t think it will ever heat soak, plus I\'ve got pre turbo WI system going on there too:)
Quote from: Grizzly;836830TBH its hard to beat the way a FMIC cools a large volume of air quickly using the best source of outside air to do it.
The run length doesn\'t make as much difference as you would expect, on boost the air is traveling so fast that a good IC area to Charge contact is Important while keeping good flow and not causing a bottle neck, you can have the Inlet Charge going through a Block of ICE but if the volume of air is moving quick enough it will not be making enough Contact to drop the temps.
An example of this is a mate who went from a very good PFS SMIC with a cold air duct etc to a massive Blitz FMIC, now you would expect the response to suffer but because the air entering the engine was cooler and denser it made More hp all the way through the rev range.
I think V-mounts and FMIC\'s work the best for ovious reasons where SMIC\'s and Charge coolers simply can\'t handle the volume for prelonged periods.
Quote from: JayDee;836831No not eds cars, all I did was re scale the table in vacuum as there is a small window the pp operates in, so it just needs more resolution in that area that\'s all!!
Quick learn as in closed loop?
Closed loop? Could be. Basically input the target AFRs and just go out and drive it and press the q button. It maybe it\'s the k?? I can\'t remember. That was just used to get a half decent base map to work from.
Intake piping looks good.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;836842Have you seen my charge cooler? :D (http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc507/grantmonkhouse/0B6A5CC5-A4EE-48E3-B215-3B6A4F757939-14594-00001D5F39BABE13.jpg)
The cookers rad is at back of my car underneath, piped front to back inside the car. With the amount of water volume on the system I don\'t think it will ever heat soak, plus I\'ve got pre turbo WI system going on there too:)
oo Shiney :)
Charge coolers where all the rage about ten years ago when PWR / Pace started doing them, I had some experiance with them on 5 Turbo\'s but only read about them on FD\'s, seem to remember a number of people in the UK using them? The idea is really good because water absorbs heat more efficiently but in practice i think most where to small for the volume of air the FD was kicking out so the air temps where disappointing. But some WI will soon sort that out :)
You have to get the right size barrell for HP output expected, you should be fine Grant looking at yours, espcially if running WI
Quote from: Grizzly;836851oo Shiney :)
Charge coolers where all the rage about ten years ago when PWR / Pace started doing them, I had some experiance with them on 5 Turbo\'s but only read about them on FD\'s, seem to remember a number of people in the UK using them? The idea is really good because water absorbs heat more efficiently but in practice i think most where to small for the volume of air the FD was kicking out so the air temps where disappointing. But some WI will soon sort that out :)
It is the biggest PWR do. My cooler originally came from the rx8 drag car that reworx did?? Keith had it, then Steve then me.
Rated at 1200 HP iirc so that should be good for me. If air temps get hot I will run ice water at the track. Also going to be running a fan or 2 on the cooler rad as that\'s a no brained really, something I think a lot of people that run them don\'t realise it is something that should be done.
Quote from: BlitzBoy;836852You have to get the right size barrell for HP output expected, you should be fine Grant looking at yours, espcially if running WI
Cheers mark. If I develop the car into a drag car only I will be going for the ice cooler they do but that\'s a long way off yet. Lol
If you\'ve got a half decent radiator, WCAC should be fine.
The :censored::censored::censored::censored:y little things they seem to supply with the kits when you\'re trying to dump 150C of air temp are half the problem. They can\'t reject enough heat before the water has flowed through it.
When I was emailing a guy at PWR he advised me that with a charge cooler the bigger the better and that WI was to have as a larger volume of water in the system as possible, the volume of water is most important factor. I have seen a number of cc systems where the cooling rad is about 1 foot away from the cooler and they\'re using a normal radiator. That is not good. It won\'t cool the water and with the volume of water being so small it heat soak more than cool. Not good:(
That\'s fine to a point, but what good is a massive volume of water if you haven\'t got the right spec radiator to actually get rid of the heat at the other end?
It\'s a balancing act. And water is heavy.
On balance, I prefer an air-to-air cooler for simplicity.
Quote from: JayDee;836849Intake piping looks good.
Thanks, haven\'t finished it yet, going to be cutting the pieces to complete the plenum this weekend if I get time, then send it off with my mate to get welded together. Making it from 3mm ally. Hopefully be strong enough.
Quote from: zeppelin101;836868That\'s fine to a point, but what good is a massive volume of water if you haven\'t got the right spec radiator to actually get rid of the heat at the other end?
It\'s a balancing act. And water is heavy.
On balance, I prefer an air-to-air cooler for simplicity.
Yes water is heavy but my cars light! If I decide to compete I will be under the minimum weight even with a full roll cage. I can try different radiators if the one I have doesn\'t work right. The guy I spoke to at PWR is really helpful and full of advice so I would go to them for help.
Grant here is the dyno graph
(http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc189/rzla1/IMG_0070.jpg)
(http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc189/rzla1/IMG_9603.jpg)
Awesome, cheers rzla
What causes the change in the power curve at 7,000rpm?
Do you find the Drag cars (bigger porting) have a bigger gap between the HP and Torque? tbh i was a little suprised 462lbs and 770hp?
I bet you have to hold on when you hit 5500rpm :) (770 rwhp :) )
The change in the power curve at 7000 rpm is where the engine torque stops climbing quite so rapidly, I\'m guessing it\'s peak boost that it holds to about 8500 rpm. Power is a function of torque times rpm, so as both rpm and torque increase you get big power increases, once at peak torque you only get power increasing with rpm. From 7000 rpm up to 9000 this engine has a pretty level torque curve.
My guess is that it feels like being strapped to a charging rhino going up through the gears from 7k.
Quote from: Will66;837270Power is a function of torque times rpm, so as both rpm and torque increase you get big power increases, once at peak torque you only get power increasing with rpm. From 7000 rpm up to 9000 this engine has a pretty level torque curve. .
Yeh i get that, but why is the Torque Figure 60% of the HP? that seems a big gap? For example i have ALLOT less power i grant you but my Torque is 80% of the HP? what i was trying to say is that down to running Huge ports or Tuning or its just the way it goes when you run big hp?
Out of intrest do you have the Boost map? Does it hit Target at 7k?
:eek: Did you do a 10k Pull :) that motor must be a work of art inside to be able to take nearly 800rwhp and 10k. Well played sir.
I\'d say it has ports for high rev power and a big turbo that reaches peak boost at 7k and holds it to 9k, the motor is capable of running that fast. Since peak boost means peak torque the fact the power is so much higher than the torque is simply a function of its ability to rev so high.
In fact judging by the peak power figures I\'d say that motor has done its work in being the fastest street rotary in Europe, 8.82 second 1/4 mile. About as good a drag run as you\'ll see in a street car ever.
8.82 second 1/4 mile RX7 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE-oQJTLfR0)
Without knowing your setup this is just speculation, but I\'m guessing you\'re running much less extreme ports and a lower rev limit.
Well yeh i know James and presuming thats his J Port you dont have to show me Video\'s of it.
It is class that he can still drive it to meetings :) one of the few True "Street" drag cars with mot etc ;) not only that he says its not bad to drive on the road too just must be a little Diffrent.
I\'m sure you\'ve seen the video, I just think it\'s very cool. I like that it is street driven.
Quote from: Will66;837280I\'d say it has ports for high rev power and a big turbo that reaches peak boost at 7k and holds it to 9k, .
Well that’s usually a Knock on effect when you go for Big Power, a good engine builder will make it develop all its power in its Usable band.
I\'m just interested in Porting, thing is i know very little about Drag cars apart from what i\'ve picked up from frends in the US, they are not that Bothered about Velocity and much more interested in Volume :) (the complete opposite of me) the only time a drag car would need to Spool/Not in there power band is on the line and that’s why you see them preload to get the Turbo spooling up before Launch :) Every thing must be Huge :)
The step at 7 was due to over fueling, this was sorted for the next run, but the dyno could not take the increase, so no readings. On the road full boost is 5.5k but on the dyno it is just before 7!!.
The engine is just a full bridge, yes the top end certainly gets your attention.
I think the dyno may not be able to load the car up enough and why full boost is higher on the dyno, I presume this may lower the torque, although I would expect a lower hp to torque ratio with our setup,
Quote from: JayDee;837292The step at 7 was due to over fueling, this was sorted for the next run, but the dyno could not take the increase, so no readings. On the road full boost is 5.5k but on the dyno it is just before 7!!.
The engine is just a full bridge, yes the top end certainly gets your attention.
I was thinking it was fuel problem but didn\'t want to say as I don\'t know much about these things. It\'s good how you are still on a conventional bridge port, rather than going through the water jacket etc although Robs car is great and sounds weird in his burn out.
Do you think you and James would benefit from going further with the bridges? Or would you prefer semi pp or full pp?
Quote from: JayDee;837293I think the dyno may not be able to load the car up enough and why full boost is higher on the dyno, I presume this may lower the torque, although I would expect a lower hp to torque ratio with our setup,
Have you though of getting the engine onto an engine dyno? Eliminates chance of breaking the gear box.
Do you think James will want to step up to FacMod? Keep the IRS but go to a proper drag box?
To be honest, we have a semi pp waiting for it, but we are making more than enough on the bridge without turning the boost up, so the engine is staying as is, his 8.8 was done at 1.8 bar it has run up to 2.5 but not on the strip!!
Once we have the new box, then the launch control or second lower soft cut rev limiter can be utilized to help with launching the car with boost.
Soft cut, is that where the spark is cut one at a time to limit the revs rather than the whole lot? Will the box hold the 2.5 bar? Or is it just like you said controlling the launches? As that must be what\'s munching the boxes all the time?
Will the bridges be smaller with the semi pp.
Yes that is soft cut, there is a bit more to it, we have never used launch control on the old box and this woulda have stressed it even more, with the new one when it comes we will. The engine is staying as is
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;837318Soft cut, is that where the spark is cut one at a time to limit the revs rather than the whole lot? Will the box hold the 2.5 bar? Or is it just like you said controlling the launches? As that must be what\'s munching the boxes all the ti
Will the bridges be smaller with the semi pp.
Quote from: JayDee;837325Yes that is soft cut, there is a bit more to it, we have never used launch control on the old box and this woulda have stressed it even more, with the new one when it comes we will. The engine is staying as is
I saw your video, looked like an old motec M4 based off the ECU mapping screen? if not what controls the engine?
Nice set up :WaveBye
I think they said they using the M2R on previous page Peter.
Yes it is just a m2r, it does the job a bit low on output/inputs though.
QUOTE=RICE RACING;846121]I saw your video, looked like an old motec M4 based off the ECU mapping screen? if not what controls the engine?
Nice set up :WaveBye[/QUOTE]