Hi people.
I have an annoying starting problem that I can\'t fix :-( Basically the car is hard to start when it\'s been warmed up. It will turn over til the cows come home with the first turn of the key but as soon as I stop and turn it over again. Boom there it is :-P I\'ve tried priming the pump by turning the key on and off a few times which does make it better but it\'s still the same problem really.
Once the car has started I get a bad idle. Sometimes it will sit higher than normal. Other times it will bounce, sometimes less than often it will just struggle and then cut out.
I\'ve checked vacuum lines. The TPS voltages are correct. The plugs are fairly new and the engine was rebuilt around 7000 miles ago.
Any ideas as it\'s slightly embarrassing every time I have to start the car with people around :-(
Out of interest who built it and is there a warrante on it?
It was rebuilt by Steve rivetts. There was a years warranty but that has expired.
Sounds like you\'ve attacked the main culprits first, maybe a manifold gasket is leaking. Also check the pipe from the brake servo to plenum, this should have a working one way valve, this can be known to cause stalling issues and bouncing idle if faulty.
yeah i have taken the elbow, throttle body and plenum off to check the rats nest. I checked the gaskets and put a bit of sealer around the elbow as the little seal never really looks good enough lol. All seemed ok, The annoying thing is that when driving and flooring it the car feels perfectly fine. It\'s just a silly idle and starting issues :-S would leads be a problem as I\'m still using the oem leads with quite a few mods.
the oem leads are in fact better than magnecor ones
oh right lol. I\'m just trying to think of things it could be. It\'s still running slightly rich and the only other thing I notice is that the headlights seem to go down on their own accord when they feel like it from time to time lol. Don\'t know if this has anything to do with it?
I would never run any other leads than oem
Ok cool, that\'s sorted then :-) I was thinking about buying some magnecor but I wont bother now lol. I just really want this fixed, it\'s sooo annoying lol
Stock ecu? Have you adjusted the screw below the elbow,
Screw on throttle body, one with the spring on that\'s stops the linkage That your cable attaches too.
It\'s an apexi power fc. Usually idles at 1000rpm but when it starts up it seems to slowly work it\'s way up hopefully if it doesn\'t die in that time lol. The screw.. ... would that affect only the idle speed? is that the one that sits on top pointing upwards or is there another one underneath somewhere?
Sorry just reread what you put. Umm no I haven\'t adjusted them. What does each one do?
Quote from: wiggman2030;831585It\'s an apexi power fc. Usually idles at 1000rpm but when it starts up it seems to slowly work it\'s way up hopefully if it doesn\'t die in that time lol. The screw.. ... would that affect only the idle speed? is that the one that sits on top pointing upwards or is there another one underneath somewhere?
Yes the one pointing up affects idle, my boys car started acting up, and that screw had moved, had a paint mark . slight twist and it was bang on. But it took me a while to see it lol.
The air adjust is under the elbow on the throttle body, do a search on it. Screw it all the way in, then Back half a turn. Check as I can\'t remember if it is half a turn
Or If your really stuck
This guy can help you :cool. Lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQpPcdvSBks&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Haha that guy is hilarious lol. I better buy some cleaner :-) I\'ll have a play with the screws today to see if it makes any difference. I couldn\'t find much on adjusting the screw underneath the elbow but I\'ll do what you said and if it fails I\'ll just blame you (joke) :-)
Thanks for the help guys
I\'ll keep you updated
I take the apexi has been in for a while,
Umm yeah it\'s been in there for about a year now. Could it be running too rich do you think? I Just thought of something. My heat light is flashing on the apexi. It\'s telling me that the Oil metering pump is not working properly. Im currently premixing at the minute to compensate. I checked the apexi power fc manual and it says that if the light is flashing at a rate of 1 second on and one second off (Like mine is) then it\'s either the injector duty is too high (which mine isn\'t) or the MAF sensor is maxed out. I guess that would be the MAP sensor on the 3rd gen. I unplugged it and it ran really badly so I assume that it\'s all ok.
The car seems to have developed a habit of cutting out after 3 seconds of starting it up from cold now too :-( sometimes it does it twice. I think the problem is getting worse.
Annoying thing is.. The car still drives and pulls perfectly fine apart from the revs dropping too low sometimes on idle and the starting issue. Seems to pop a lot more now too.
I\'m running out of ideas. I don\'t want to travel 200+ miles to get someone to look at it when it could be something simple. Ooh the joys of owning a rotary ;-)
leading coil pack? lol leading plugs are black and sooty trailing are half black half brown...
If your apexi has been fine for a year and no other changes have been made recently, it sounds like a faulty MAP sensor.
This could give you a rich idle and poor running as the engine would be running on the wrong part of the fuel and ignition maps.
Could also be a sticking Idle control valve. This would give the same symptoms.
The Apexi is notoriously bad for stable idle though.
Quote from: Rotormotor;832252If your apexi has been fine for a year and no other changes have been made recently, it sounds like a faulty MAP sensor.
This could give you a rich idle and poor running as the engine would be running on the wrong part of the fuel and ignition maps.
Could also be a sticking Idle control valve. This would give the same symptoms.
The Apexi is notoriously bad for stable idle though.
Yeah that\'s what the apexi manual says. I would have thought that the car would run badly as well though. Mine seems to run fine but wont start first time when warm and the engine almost stalls when the revs drop. Once the idle stabilises it does sit fairly comfortably at 1000rpm. It\'s just that when you turn it on it bounces all over the place and seems to want to stall a lot. I could change the map sensor but I don\'t really like buying bits hoping that it will fix it lol. Thanks for the input though. I might try to source a map sensor as i\'m getting slightly annoyed with it now :3Confused
hhmm. have some of you even read what the op is actually experiencing? It sounds like alot of you are rambling about the first thing that come to your head and not take in to consideration the symptoms the car is experiencing...smh
Anyway, OP
seeing that your car is hard to start after it is warmed up, there can be several issue that will cause THAT particular problem.
These are the things to check, make sure you are getting spark to the coils, expecially the trailing , once the problems starts to occur. I would suggest that you get a compression check as many times, this is the sign of seal failing/sticking, loosing compression when warm will cause these symptoms..this is from experience.
Does the car, once up to temperature start to stumble after warm? You might want to check your voltage to see if it dropping off, and take a look at your injector duty cycle.
Touching the ECU parameters should be the very last thing you should do!!
To check your map sensor, the easiest way is to unplug the vacuum line going to it and cap the side that is going to the engine. If there isnt any changes to idle, then you have a map sensor problem.
Thanks for that Indian,
I\'ll go to mazda to get a compression test done, I hope it\'s ok as it was rebuilt about 6-7000 miles ago.
As for when it\'s warm (from first start) the car seems perfectly normal. The idle is fine and there are no problems. It\'s once the car is shut off the problems start happening. I will check the Map sensor like you mentioned and get a compression test done anyway as i\'ve never had one. I\'ll post the results once I get them. I take it Mazda are the only people who can do it?
Thanks for the help :-)
Oh I\'ll check for a good spark too lol :-)
Where was it built? Seems to be alot of engines having issues around that mileage recently
It was rebuilt by Steve Rivetts. Its now out of warranty though. I really don\'t want it to be the seals :-(
I hope it\'s not either...I have a Mazda comp tester and can bring it to pod if you want it testing
I would have gone to pod but I didn\'t want to risk taking the car out. That would have been great though mate. I will ask around the local area. I believe Jimmy\'s is quite close so I\'ll try them. If not it will have to be Mazda. Thanks anyway. I\'ll let you know if I change my mind about pod as it looks pretty awesome lol.
Wiggman, when did you notice this problem? did you have the car in storage?
What you should do, is check the stuff I mention just before and after the issue starts.
Also, a easy way to check the injectors for consistency, is after the car dies. Do not try and start it back, pull the plugs and see if any are flooding/burning right.or very dry. Being dry and "clean" will tell you that you are not getting fuel at that point .. I dont know how green your "mechanical thumb" is, so Im telling you the simplest ways of checking without pulling your car to pieces.
Quote from: Indian;832722Wiggman, when did you notice this problem? did you have the car in storage?
What you should do, is check the stuff I mention just before and after the issue starts.
Also, a easy way to check the injectors for consistency, is after the car dies. Do not try and start it back, pull the plugs and see if any are flooding/burning right.or very dry. Being dry and "clean" will tell you that you are not getting fuel at that point .. I dont know how green your "mechanical thumb" is, so Im telling you the simplest ways of checking without pulling your car to pieces.
Thanks :-) I\'m actually a mechanic but this car still confuses me lol. I have checked the injector duty on the power fc commander and it never seems to get above 70%. The vacuum seems to sit anywhere between 350mmHg and 410mmHg now when before it was always about 380mmHg. I checked the plugs once on shut down and the leading plugs were both black, dry and sooty while the trailing seemed to be dry and half black, half brown.
I checked at mazda how much it would cost to do a compression test and they quoted me £80! lol. I think i\'ll look elsewhere for now. As for the other things. I haven\'t checked the spark or map sensor yet. I not sure if it\'s compression related because if I start the car up within 10 minutes of shutting it off it does start fine. It\'s only if I leave it for a while. Most noticable after 1 hour (once the coolant temp reaches below 60 degrees). I\'m guessing if it was compression related then it would do it whenever I tried to start it from warm... Im not sure though :3Confused
The idle doesn\'t ever seem to play up until the car is shut off which is also confusing. I will definately let you know how I get on with the spark and MAP sensor. Also would a video help? I could post something on youtube so you can see what I mean.
Thanks again everyone, I appreciate the help from you all :-)
I forgot to mention I noticed this problem after the OMP died. I took the elbow off to unplug and plug the OMP connector again to check for rust and bad connections but everything was ok. I was hoping it was just a bad seal on the elbow to the throttle body. I replaced the gasket and used sealer on the gasket just in case but the problem still persists. I started premixing as soon as the Light started flashing on the dash so I don\'t think any damage could have occurred. I have tried unplugging the MAP sensor (which made it run terrible) and I\'ve checked for vacuum leaks but due to there being so many hoses I didn\'t really find anything. I have noticed that the car has had trouble starting before hand. A change of the plugs fixed that but they only seemed to last about 3000 miles which doesn\'t seem a lot for platinum plugs? This time the car is just awful to start and the idle is being effected too which it didn\'t before. Sorry I go on a bit but I\'m starting to lose hope lol.
i change my plugs every 2-3000 miles, you are using rotary specific ones i thinks off the top of my head they are bur9eqp
Quote from: wolfie1;832763i change my plugs every 2-3000 miles, you are using rotary specific ones i thinks off the top of my head they are bur9eqp
Yeah that\'s what I use. Do they really only last 3000 miles? That doesn\'t seem very long lol.
Right ok, time for an update lol. I had a vacuum test done using a smoke machine just in case I was missing something. There were no vac leaks so that\'s out of the question now. The MAP sensor is ok. I did the test that Indian suggested and it idled a lot worse with it not being connected. Finally I adjusted the air screw under the elbow. This made a big difference to starting the car from warm. It fires up almost everytime now. The screw was out by 3 turns so I wound it in until it was about 1/2 a turn out and that has made it much better.
The idle itself seems a lot better now but it does tend to be worse with electrical load (lights and stuff). The idle still seems to drop a little too low when coming to a stop at lights etc. It soon bounces back up and then settles at 1000rpm again though. I think i\'m just being fussy now though. I guess it\'s better than it was. Thanks for the help guys. If I get it perfect again or if it gets worse i\'ll keep you informed :-)
hey Wigg, hows the car going so far. For the load issue, if you have a good battery, poor ground areas can cause the issues you are experiencing with electrical load.. clean them up and see if that helps. FD\'s are notorious for poor grounding issues
Well it\'s still not perfect. I cleaned up the ground points but they were already quite clean so it hasnt really made any difference. I\'m starting to think its compression related as my omp failed. I have been running premix since but I think it may have done some damage before hand. I\'m currently trying to get hold of a compression tester. Mazda want £95 to do a test so I\'m looking elsewhere. It\'s a Shame cause the engine has only done 8,000 miles or so since it was rebuilt :-( once I get a test done I\'ll let you know the results.
make sure you check the ground point from the bottom of the engine to under the fuse box.
Also, if you want less accurate but doable compression testing, you can get/borrow a regular compression tester, remove the valve and cycle the engine as if it was a regular tester. Have a friend look at the tester, it should "bounce" each time an apex seal cross the spark plug. have them or you just guessmitate how much each bounce is going up.. Not the best way to do things, but still a way
Ok will do. I have probably missed that one. I will try an ordinary compression tester first as a guide and then see if I can get a rotary one. Cheers for the help :-)
Still haven\'t been able to get hold of a compression tester yet but until then, what is the best way to check the coil packs/leads for a good spark? I tried taking the plenum off but there is so many hoses connected to it and I don\'t want to mess something up if I can avoid it. I\'m guessing it\'s the only way to get to the coil pack but if someone has any advice that would be great :-)