Hiya\'ll!
I got a FC3C TII, S5. Before, I got my 7-9 PSI, whatever is stock, but now I only get 4-5, which means the duty solenoid controlling the boost isn\'t working somehow. It is clicking, so in that manner it works.
What can cause this to happen? The possible causes that I can think of are these:
Solenoid, wastegate, MAP, vac lines to solenoid, or my intake being straight instead of the S-shaped rubber one.
Any other ideas/ways to test?
Does it matter what way the solenoid is plugged on the vac lines?
If you replaced the intake section, there are a couple of small vac lines that go into it from the vac rack. It\'s quite likely you have introduced a leak that\'s enough to stop it making full boost.
Also check the actuator arm on the turbo is still connected. They have a habbit of loosing their C clip and falling off the wastegate.
Ade
The actuator arm MUST be connected, else I wouldn\'t have that low pressure, I would have too high as the wastegate would never open.
As for the two vac lines, one goes to the solenoid, the other goes to the crank case ventilation, both are connected.
Feck, anyone got convertible window motors lying around to sell? Cheaper the better :D I need both LHS and RHS.
The actuator may be connected but how old is it? I changed mine for an upratd HKS unit so that I know the spring was strong enough to increase the boost. I have also seen on another forum where the actuator rod was slightly loose, when I had a look at the back of my turbo the different between closed and \'fully open\' was a matter of about 5mms before it hit the back plate on the turbo (silly design lol) so if its loose then it might be the fact that its simply worn. Also 5psi is the stock spring pressure ie what you would get if you didn\'t connect up any boost controller, might be an idea to check the vac line going to the actuator and the solinoid (they usually click when working).
Quote from: jimmydanny;829416The actuator arm MUST be connected, else I wouldn\'t have that low pressure, I would have too high as the wastegate would never open.
As for the two vac lines, one goes to the solenoid, the other goes to the crank case ventilation, both are connected.
Not true. On mine when it fell off I got a really steady boost up to around 0.5 bar and then it just levelled off as the turbo pressure forced the wastegate flap open.
Quote from: jimmydanny;829419Feck, anyone got convertible window motors lying around to sell? Cheaper the better :D I need both LHS and RHS.
I have both sides available. They are heavy so I will weigh one and then let you know how much they weigh and the likely cost of shipping - I don\'t think they will be cheap :( to ship.
Let me know if you are interested - I\'ll probably want £50 for the pair of motors, so it will be that plus shipping.
Quote from: TiddlesRX7;829442Not true. On mine when it fell off I got a really steady boost up to around 0.5 bar and then it just levelled off as the turbo pressure forced the wastegate flap open.
^^^ What he said ^^^ with the flapper disconnected, the exhaust gas can just push around the turbine and open the flapper easily. You\'ll get some boost, but not a lot.
When you changed from the plastic double 90 degree induction piping (stock) to your straight intake, what have lines have you got connected to that intake ? Got any pictures that might help ?
Prof, I got contact with a guy in the US with two motors, but he is charging 100 per motor, which is 60£ per motor, so I\'d go for yours. Only demand is that you can check and confirm that all screws are loose enough to be opened, in case I need to repair or so.
I got both of the vac lines to the intake, removed the return from the stock BOV as I run to atmosphere anyways. Worst case is that I have to drill a hole and find a nipple that fits or weld a 25mm tube to it.
(http://i.imgur.com/AEIe4.jpg)
This is an old photo before I drilled up the holes for the nipples, but they sit on the straight part before the turbo.
Are you using the stock BOV like a vent to atmosphere one ?
You may run into some issues if you do, as they are a bit \'leaky\' providing some bypass air for idle. It\'s not an issue when they are setup as a recirc, but you may want a proper after market bov that has twin piston setup so it can seal off the intake to air leakage under vacuum. For the same reason people have issues with some dump valves.
With the stock boost solenoid, the actuator is fed from the output of the compressor, but the line that feeds it has a \'T\' junction, which goes off to the duty/boost solenoid and then vented back to the induction. The idea is that some of the boost is bled off so the actuator doesn\'t see the full boost, causing it to allow higher boost to be built before it opens the wastegate, all under control of the ECU.
Normally, with a good flowing exhaust, and intake such as yours, simply piping the compressor output to the actuator will probably get you 8psi of boost easily, but the actuator spring is weak, and if the wastegate has been ported to allow larger bypass flow, then the flap area that the exhaust gas works against is much larger (upto 50% more area) so will open more easily. This causes the boost to bleed off. If you don\'t port the wastegate you run into the opposite problem of boost spikes or boost creep which is just as bad.
The best way to fix it is:
- Port the wastegate - if you want to run higher boost you\'ll need the flow
- Upgrade the actuator - the stock one isn\'t really much cop - the HKS actuator is a good replacement
- Remove the stock boost/duty solenoid and fit an aftermarket controller
- Use either an FCD (not so good) or a piggy back or standalone ECU to control the fuelling and remove the boost fuel cut
You\'ll need to do all of those things to get more boost than stock and keep control of it, but the effort is worth it. Don\'t forget the stock solenoids are old and tired now, and probably not working as well as when they were originally fitted.
With regard to the \'screws\' on the hood motors - which ones? The units came off a car I scavanged parts off, and I tested both motors were working at the time.
Jimmy,
I misread your post earlier - it\'s window motors you wanted, not hood motors !
I have those also, and they would be cheaper to ship !
I will test them on the car before I take them off, and can video it to show they are working. I hope to start taking bits off as soon as it stops raining - so give me a couple of days !!
Dave
Price? I really really need them, my dad is paying to get my car sealed before the next storm comes in here, which it usually does pretty fast :P
Hood motors? WTF is that? :P
Btw, you don\'t have a idle regulator? What its called? idle control valve? Anyways, S5 TII engine, JDM, if that matters.
Sorry don\'t have a spare BAC valve...
Hmm, this is weird. I tried with a boost controller between the nipple after the turbo and on the pipe going around the turbo to the actuator. No matter what setting, I only got 0,4-0,5 bar. Now, that yells actuator arm? No, when I put on the new silicone hose, it got bent too much and let no air past. What happened? Fast up to 0,9, then dropping down to 0,6-0,7... Not the actuator arm after all?
Quote from: jimmydanny;829559Hmm, this is weird. I tried with a boost controller between the nipple after the turbo and on the pipe going around the turbo to the actuator. No matter what setting, I only got 0,4-0,5 bar. Now, that yells actuator arm? No, when I put on the new silicone hose, it got bent too much and let no air past. What happened? Fast up to 0,9, then dropping down to 0,6-0,7... Not the actuator arm after all?
That fast boosting and then dropping off is typical of the stock turbo / actuator combo - the actuator can\'t hold that boost so it lets it go, and the peaking is the turbo basically limiting.
If you are using an aftermarket boost solenoid, you should not use that pipe around the front of the turbo at all, but rather run a line from the compressor outlet nipple to the NO port on the solenoid and a line from the COM port to the actuator. The NC port on the solenoid should be left free and must not be blocked or capped.
And plug the pipe around the turbo then? Makes no sense compared to what I\'m used to on other cars.
But anyways, my car is capable of 0,9 bar, why do I only get 0,5 when I remove the kink in the hose? The solenoid (Without testing it properly) works, it clicks when ign is on.
Quote from: jimmydanny;829585And plug the pipe around the turbo then? Makes no sense compared to what I\'m used to on other cars.
But anyways, my car is capable of 0,9 bar, why do I only get 0,5 when I remove the kink in the hose? The solenoid (Without testing it properly) works, it clicks when ign is on.
Because the spring in the wastegate actuator is set for that - actually it\'s about .4 BAR, but will usually go a bit higher if your exhaust flows well. To get more boost you must either restrict the pressure to the actuator or bleed some off - either will delay the operation of the actuator and provide more boost. That\'s what you\'re boost controller is supposed to do.
Wiki explains it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boost_controller
The stock system is effectively a \'bleed type\'.
The three way valve in most electronic boost controllers only bleeds air pressure off the actuator, so does not represent a continous boost leak on the engine.
Well, the stock system gives me 0,4-0,5 (I think the freer flowing intake helps a bit, it did increase the boost it seems), the aftermarket manual boost controller gives me the same. When clamping the hose I get 0,9. So it can\'t be the actuator arm being too loose, and it can\'t be the duty solenoid or MAP not working, as the same happens with the aftermarket boost controller.
This doesn\'t make sense anymore...
Are there any turbos or ways to get a bigger compressor side easily? That means, minimal to no modification on the in our out flanges, so I can keep my RB downpipe and stock exhaust manifold?
Or, for a shorter term fix, while waiting for a proper sized turbo and standalone, swapping the actuator, is this doable? To something more.. Springy? :P
ok, so looking at the facts:
using a straight piece of pipe you get the spring boost setting for the turbo - which is about 5 psi or .4 BAR - you may get a little more because of you\'re intake.
Then with the pipe pinches, the wastegate will not operate, so the 0.9 BAR is the maximum your intake and exhaust are allowing the turbo to spool to.
I would summise that your after market boost controller and the stock boost solenoid are doing nothing at all and basically not working.
As for turbo upgrades, this is what you can do:
1) Upgrade actuator - you can get after market actuators from HKS, Forge and a few others that will work with the stock turbo, but you will probably want to port the wastegate...
2) Porting the wastegate - this is necessary to avoid boost creep - where you\'re boost isn\'t controlled and just increases with higher gears, and increases when in gear as the rev\'s rise. You can use the stock exhaust housing - just needs a lot of work with a burr
3) Spacing the exhaust plate or using a bellmouth - this allows the flapper to open much further and is similar to porting the wastegate - it will give less turbulent flow as well.
4) Replace the compressor section - the Turbo is a Hitachi HT18S2, and the bolt pattern for the compressor is identical to Garrett T04B compressor housing - you can get various blade profiles to fit on the front, you will be able to make much more boost, but the turbo won\'t spool till later in the rev range. I have a Garrett compressor on mine, and it spools around 4400 rpm, but holds boost to past 7500 rpm. It will easily give more than a BAR of boost - but you do need to do something with the fuelling or you will kill your engine. This isn\'t just a straight swap, you will have to have the turbo re balanced when you change the compressor. It\'s also worth having the journal bearings replaced with 360 degree bearings which offer better balance and support.
You can find some units second hand, it\'s worth talking to the tuners to see what they have.
Spacing the exhaust plate, that will remove the need for porting the wastegate then? Also, can this be, say, making a new, thicker plate with CNC? Got friends in higher places than I should :P
Quote from: jimmydanny;829643Spacing the exhaust plate, that will remove the need for porting the wastegate then? Also, can this be, say, making a new, thicker plate with CNC? Got friends in higher places than I should :P
it doesn\'t really replace porting, but it will help a little.
Will it help me when I get the REV TII exhaust and my boost goes close to 0.9? Compared to porting, which is a much bigger job as I understood it?
Quote from: jimmydanny;829628When clamping the hose I get 0,9.
I\'ve been thinking about doing this recently... I\'m not getting much boost (sometimes as little as just atmospheric pressure, sometimes more) and I think my wastegate spring may be a bit weak... (The arm is still attached)
I take it that the hose that you clamp is the turbo to actuator vac hose? And is there anything else I would need to do?
Quote from: Prof;8296411) Upgrade actuator - you can get after market actuators from HKS, Forge and a few others that will work with the stock turbo, but you will probably want to port the wastegate...
Where would I get an HKS actuator from? I haven\'t seen any for the FC on any of my regularly visited sites, maybe I just missed them?
I am clamping the one from the pressure side, aka on top of the turbo, where the pipe to the BOV sits. But you can clamp it between the actuator and the turbo piping yes.
But I have a fuel cut defender in my Rtek, if you don\'t have, you probably will blow your engine at that boost level. I did it last year, did not see why it happened untill some time after.
EDIT: Also, the engine will go lean, maybe too lean, which is second worst to total fuel cut, either of this will occur if you clamp it. So I do not recommend it. Ebay an HKS actuator instead, much easier.
Yeah, I realise the dangers... I just want to do it as a test to see if it IS the actuator or something else... Literally gunna drive it until up to temperature, jack it up, clamp the hose (yes.. I have temperature resisting gloves) and literally just go down the road and see if the boost gauge goes any higher... if it does, then I will be stopping quickly before blowing anything...
I don\'t want to start needlessly throwing parts at it and I can\'t think of an easier way to test...
Edit:
I DO have an afermarket ECU, but I haven\'t fitted it yet.. I want to make sure everything is working first, although I may have to switch out before that, lol.. Since, if I remember correctly, it has a maps for the higher pressures anyway
Hmm, okay, I fiddled with the wires to the MAP sensor, and still running without my wastegate connected I got 1.1-1.2 bar, which is around 14-16 psi somewhere? 1.0 is 14.4 I think.
When I think about it, that got nothing to say vs. the wastegate, since the hose was kinked. But, 1.1-1.2 bar makes this turbo workable for me with new REV exhaust as well.
Anyways. Connected the wastegate again, 0.4 bar again.
Any good method to test the MAP sensor? Anything I can do while not driving to see what readings I get from it in volts at idle, reving, and ohms when off.
Whoa! Careful with that boost level, im amazed it didn\'t detonate if it isn\'t mapped there lol
Nothing happens, it just peaks there and falls down fast as hell.
As for more petrol, without getting standalone or piggyback, can I go with a Supra fuel pump, 720 injectors and fuel pressure regulator while waiting for funds for standalone and mapping (which is, did I mention, 900km away)
On stock fueling with a chipped ECU you can run to about 0.9bar and thats at the very limit of the stock fueling (the injectors are maxxing at 92% duty) anything more than 0.9 bar will shorten the OEM turbo quite a bit as anything more than 0.9 bar is outside its efficency window, also the fueling isn\'t there for anything more than that.
You can uprate the fuel pump no problem and get an FPR put in but for larger injectors you need a standalone or piggyback although I think you can get some standalone injector drivers which tweek the settings but they are pretty old. Its probably best to go with standard 550 primaries and up the secondaries to 800ccs.
What sort of power and turbo are you going for? Also, what are the AFRs at the moment?
Next paycheck I am getting AFR gauge, my old one is done :/
Will the stock ECU cope with bigger secondaries then?
As for power, I have ordered the Racing Beat REV TII exhaust, and got a custom intake as well, so I will get some free boost there alone. But I wont go over 300hp without standalone, but as I said, 900km, 1000£ for standalone, same for mapping at least.
You need the turbo wastegate ported if you are going to be making the system free flowing else it will boost creap badly, the ECU can\'t cope with bigger secondaries, I ran my car with 1680s in the secondaries on a stock ECU (until my emanage ultimate was connected up) it sounded like antilag going off at 3.5k and the whole car bogged due to the massive amount of fuel being injected lol
I would suggest stop playing with the boost levels and get the supporting mods in first, then when its safe to increase the boost you can without the engine going bang! I am guessing you are still running on an OEM plastic radiator and OEM HT leads?
HT leads? As spark plug wires? Nope, running Mazdatrix ones. radiator though. But problem is not heat, and in Norway, it will never be.
As for boost levels I suggest you read the whole topic first, I am not getting my supposed boost level with the wastegate connected, I am lacking half my boost, which is either a problem because of the MAP, the duty solenoid, the ECU or the wastegate. With running 1,2 bar and it not behind boost creep, I proved nicely that the wastegate stays shut.
So back to square one. MAP, ECU or duty solenoid. I can\'t find my multimeter so I can\'t check for anything yet.
Okay, weird part incoming now.
Measured over pin 3R to ground, got 3V when ign on, 2-4 on idle (jumpy idle), and 12V when over 2-3k rpm, no matter what boost/vac level.
Then I measured over the solenoid valve itself. I got 12V when idle, when reving to over 3k I got 0. How the :censored::censored::censored::censored: is the possible?
So, I ohmed over the L/W (blue/white) wire from the ECu to the solenoid, got a beep. Ohmed the other wire on the solenoid to the plus on the battery when ign on, nothing, 91 ohms. Then I took it over to the minus, got a beep. Tell me, are both connected to the ground?
And still I am getting a voltage, inverted on one side of the cable. This doesn\'t make sense for :censored::censored::censored::censored:!
Also, can someone confirm these three? Volt on idle, pin 3R to gnd, 12V on rev.
Over the solenoid, 12V idle, 0 on 3k rpm.
Ohm the L/W wire, ohm/hear the beep. Ohm the other cable (which the FSM says goes to the main relay, so should be power when ign on) to the plus on the battery. Beep/no beep (ohm value). Then to the minus.
Thanks in advance!
The solenoid will be connected to 12v as will all the other solenoids - on one side, the other side will connect to the ECU pin. Inside the ECU is a power transistor which is either off (open circuit) or on (shorted to ground).
If you switch the ignition key to ign setting but don\'t crank it, the solenoid should be at 12V on both pins, this is because the solenoid coil is a few tens of ohms and the transistor will be off. When the ECU sees a rising voltage on the MAP sensor, it will trigger the solenoid to pulse (about 25 times a second) to regulate the boost. The waveform is like a square wave, but the duty of the pulses changes, the effect is to give an average voltage - digital meters aren\'t really useful to see effect of this - heavily damped analog meter will give a much better indication.
Be careful of measuring resistances with components stll attached in the engine bay, there are plenty of components that will give the impression that both supply rails are shorted to each other.
A healthy solenoid should give about 30-35 ohms resistance between the pins (with nothing else connected to it).
The manual says that the ECU will read 0v when the ignition is off on Pin 3R, and below 2.0V on idle.
Ah, I have gone one year electrician at high school, no Ohming when connected! ;)
But I asked this on rx7club, and will do here too... If I remove the solenoid, leave it hanging connected, and connect the two hoses together instead, I will get a vac leak through it, but it should be measured air, and it should give me 0,7 in theory, right?
Quote from: jimmydanny;830513Ah, I have gone one year electrician at high school, no Ohming when connected! ;)
But I asked this on rx7club, and will do here too... If I remove the solenoid, leave it hanging connected, and connect the two hoses together instead, I will get a vac leak through it, but it should be measured air, and it should give me 0,7 in theory, right?
No - not quite - the solenoid is pulsed by the ECU, so it effectively controls the amount of boost it leaks off. I don\'t think it\'s ever on fully.
If you plug the pipe that goes to the duty solenoid from the turbo you should see only 5 psi or there abouts, if you can rig up a bleed valve and adjust it to bleed a little air off, then you should be able to control the amount of boost upto the fuel cut limit set by the ecu (about 8.6-8.8 psi).
I just took one of the hoses and connected it over the two pipes, and I got 0,7 bar, 0,6 sometimes, but still better than 0,4.
As for fuel cut, I have an Rtek 1.5 chip in it, so it wont be a problem.