Mazda Rotary Club

Cars by Model Type => 2nd generation RX-7's => Topic started by: grinder on March 26, 2012, 05:48:33 PM

Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: grinder on March 26, 2012, 05:48:33 PM
Hiya fellow FC owners

over the last few weeks , i have been having issues with the cab ( white one , not the one with the knackered auto box ! LOL )

Its really hard to get into gear , to the extent of trying to snap off the gear stick trying to get 1st

i told the better half to take it for a spin , but she returned home within minutes saying that she couldnt get first

i managed to get 1st and took it for a spin around the block , but it was really hard getting the gears

Now i though that its cause its been stood over winter , but the fact that you can change gear put that out of my mind

I went for a 20-30 mile spin on sunday in it , and it was all fine and dandy , but about 5 miles from home , it started playing up again and really really hard to get it into gears :(

to the point of setting off in second from the lights etc..

Reverse was also a pain to find when i got home..

Now the clutch is right at the bottom ( if that makes sense ) hardly any travel before it engages , so im assuming its not opening enough to change gear

Does this sound like a shot at clutch ( although i would assume that when the clutch is on the way out , you would have to lift the pedal to the top nearly ? )

I have checked the fluid and its full ( ohh yes its full )

Im not overly up to speed on clutches hence my question !??!

Not sure if this is part of it , but you cant do quick changes either , you have to really press the clutch and practically force it thru the gears :( - there will be no drag runs at this rate

Is there anything i can check for , does it sound like the clutch , or could the gear box oil be getting old

Im sure the prev owner said he changed both the master and slave cylinders , so i dont think thats it

And the confusing bit , it got worse the more i drove it .. so not sure what thats a sign off

Im not having much luck with "transmissions" on these cars :(

i even made sure that the mat wasnt under the pedal and not letting me press it far enough , but its out of the way , so thats fine

It just feels like your trying to change gear with the clutch pressed only 70% , when i bought the car , i was taken out for a test drive and it was fine , no issues ( although the owner might have been used to it ;) )

any ideas greatly welcomed :D

Stu
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: flatout on March 27, 2012, 08:32:26 PM
Sounds like your presure plate is feckt,
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: grinder on March 27, 2012, 08:35:59 PM
thats something i didnt want to hear :(
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: Will66 on March 27, 2012, 09:12:22 PM
It sounds to me like pressing the pedal isn\'t moving the clutch as it should.

That sounds like a master/slave cylinder problem or a clutch actuator arm or something.
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: m1tch on March 27, 2012, 09:48:19 PM
How old is the clutch? does it slip when it is in gear? Might just need to bleed the clutch line :)
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: BinoX on March 27, 2012, 10:12:03 PM
When you push the pedal down, see if you can see the clutch slave working as it should (attached to the bell housing on the gearbox)

I had this happen to my FC (shortly after I\'d finished my rebuild typically) and it turned out that the rod that pushes the clutch master had punched it\'s way through the little cup that it sits in (stupid plastic), but not enough to cause a visible leak. The only real visible symptom was a non-moving (or barely moving on occasion) clutch slave... Got a new one from MRP within a couple of days and it\'s been working a treat since :)
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: grinder on March 28, 2012, 11:01:06 AM
ok , there is no clutch slip at all , it holds all the gears up to the red line .. even up steep hills - so im ruling that out of the question

I have checked and when you press the clutch the slave moves OK ( thing is , you need two people to check this and its not always possible )

the slave is in such a stupid place , its very arkward to see and even get to :(

im wondering if the pedal is out of adjustment , so even at full travel , you are not getting full travel , but i would assume this would happen all the time and not just every so often

im SURE the prev owner said he changed both the master and slave .. but i need to confirm this ( when im back at work )
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: grinder on March 28, 2012, 11:06:07 AM
OK , did some digging and found this

http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72122

So looks like they both have been changed
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: m1tch on March 28, 2012, 07:07:27 PM
Quote from: grinder;817829OK , did some digging and found this

http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72122

So looks like they both have been changed

The location isn\'t as bad as some of the Volvo V40 engines where (due to some of the engines being french) the clutch slave clylinder is INSIDE the bell housing, you have to remove the whole gearbox to get to it lol
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: richrx on March 29, 2012, 09:30:25 AM
Hi stu

Didn\'t realise you were having issues :(

Have you tried pumping the clutch pedal like 5-10 times and see if you get a gear change in??

Does the pedal loose pressure and refuse to \'spring\' back??

I put a used master and slave cylinder in... So there is a chance it could still be this.

Richard
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: grinder on March 29, 2012, 07:55:43 PM
the pedal action seems just fine to be honest , just wont go into first sometimes :(

it springs back just fine .. i have had a RX7 with that issue in the past .. soon learnt to pull the pedal back up with my foot ! LOL
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: Ricco_04 on March 29, 2012, 09:45:21 PM
I dont know clutch or gearbox very well so hopefully wide of the mark but isnt struggling to get into gear syncro\'s on the box itself?
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: Will66 on March 29, 2012, 10:52:33 PM
Could be selectors rather than synchro rings, they\'d grind if they were badly worn.
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: grinder on March 30, 2012, 09:30:57 AM
Hummmmmmmmmmmmmm not sounding good is it :(

Not 100% sure what to check first to be honest

might see if i can bleed it and see what that does , and also try adjusting the pedal

after that .. who knows eh ?!?!?
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: Brett on March 30, 2012, 11:06:01 AM
I\'d say bleed it first, take it out for half an hour of mixed driving and see where you are.

Have you checked the oil in box btw?  If it\'s only doing this once its got some miles (ie heat) on it then maybe theres an internal issue...
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: grinder on March 30, 2012, 12:22:14 PM
again , internal issues is something i dont want to hear !! LOL
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: a.tapos on March 30, 2012, 12:48:50 PM
Clutch drag mate,its when the clutch gets stuck on the input shaft and basically half engages the clutch because its not free enough to move away from the flywheel/pressure plate
 
Thats where id put my money,possibly combination of lack of use or no lube used when the clutch was fitted,not that common on jap cars but does happen,
still have to have box out to check it,so would change clutch anyway
 
to test if its gearbox or clutch is simple enough,if it goes in gear engine off then its clutch related,if it still struggles its box.
 
sometimes weak fingers on the pressure plate will cause these symptoms too.as they bend rather then release the pressure.
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: a.tapos on March 30, 2012, 12:49:41 PM
Im guessing you have tried to bleed it?
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: richrx on March 30, 2012, 12:58:28 PM
This sounds similar to when the clutch release bearing failed on my FD.. Does it feel like a mechanical resistance? Or any metal on metal screeching noises??

Richard
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: grinder on March 30, 2012, 04:31:22 PM
right , with the car off , it seems to go in all the gears just fine

Its when its running it struggles .. and the last time i was out - it got worse over time

its been stood for about 3-4 months and not used , but i have done about 60 miles in it since .. so everything should have free\'d up by now

when it wont go into first , it just feels SOLID , like the clutch is doing nothing , but it will then go into 2nd with a crunch .. its hard to explain to be honest , its like you are trying to snap the gear stick off , no crunching , no grinding , just nothing , like a solid wall ??
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: Will66 on March 30, 2012, 04:40:05 PM
I think it\'s clutch related.  It\'s like the clutch is not opening sufficiently to disengage.
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: richrx on April 04, 2012, 04:18:20 PM
Any joy yet stu??
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: Prof on April 04, 2012, 04:27:33 PM
Remove the inspection plate underneath - 4 x 10mm bolts, and have someone operate the clutch whilst the engine is not running - you\'ll be able to tell 2 things:
 
1) how much material is on the clutch disc :)
 
2) whether it seperates away form the pressure plate / flywheel as it should.
 
Assuming this is all ok, that basically means the clutch is probably ok, the master / slave is likely to be too.
 
I suspect it may be the exact same issue I had when getting the cab back on the road after the engine rebuild - collapsed pilot bearing.  It\'s not too hard a job to do - just takes a long time and means exhaust, heat shields, prop shaft and gearbox have to come off - no other way around it :(
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: grinder on April 05, 2012, 10:32:03 AM
hiya chaps - to be honest not even looked at it yet

what i find strange ( and always do with probs like this ) its not a continous problem

one day it works fine , the other it doesnt

i dont understand if its the fingers on the clutch .. surely it would do it all the time , just not when it feels like it ?

and the pilot bearing , if its collapsed , the surely it wont heal over time and then fail and then get better

i need to get her out again ( might do over the weekend ) and try to work out exactly what its doing

and then why just 1st .. surely if its not going to go into gear , then why allow 2nd to be selected

which makes me think its not the clutch .. as if it was , it would stop you selecting ANY gear

if the fluid was low/bad in the actual box , could you get symptoms like this ?
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: Prof on April 05, 2012, 11:46:04 AM
When my pilot bearing failed, I could sometimes get it in gear and sometimes not, but it only got worse with time...
 
Also - at higher speeds, and higher gears, you may be at the correct RPM to change without using the clutch - for 1st gear you are almost always likely to have 0 revs on the gearbox side until you select a gear, as you are most likely going to be selecting this from standstill to get going.  If that\'s the case, you\'ll notice the issue in 1st gear and reverse on the driveway - no need to go beyoind the end of your drive ;)
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: grinder on April 05, 2012, 12:46:36 PM
hummm sounds like a bloody big job looming then .. and no space to work on the car

and i bet the only way to tell is to remove the box ?

Does the clutch need to come out to do the bearing ?
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: grinder on April 05, 2012, 01:41:53 PM
just been quoted £220 inc VAT for the bearing to be changed

Looks like i might be doing it on the drive !!

And Dave , you pointed out reverse .. yeah im sure i struggled with that aswell !??! :(
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: Prof on April 05, 2012, 01:58:55 PM
Quote from: grinder;818808...
Does the clutch need to come out to do the bearing ?

I\'d say not necessarily, the slide hammer that they would need to extract the bearing or what\'s left of it, should go through the apperture left by the gearbox input shaft
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: a.tapos on April 05, 2012, 02:07:42 PM
gearbox out either way then mate
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: grinder on April 05, 2012, 02:15:37 PM
Hummmm .. ok .. sounds like fun ( NOT )

Next question .. does the flywheel need to come off to do the bearing ( im just thinking the rather large 54mm nut :( )

I can see me having 2 FC\'s at this rate and neither of them being drivable :(
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: Prof on April 05, 2012, 04:25:23 PM
Quote from: grinder;818832Hummmm .. ok .. sounds like fun ( NOT )
 
Next question .. does the flywheel need to come off to do the bearing ( im just thinking the rather large 54mm nut :( )
 
I can see me having 2 FC\'s at this rate and neither of them being drivable :(

definitely not - that can stay ;) - the pilot bearing is in the end of the eshaft - so clearly visible with the flywheel on :)
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: grinder on April 05, 2012, 06:31:39 PM
at least there is some good news eh !! LOL
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: Brett on April 05, 2012, 09:30:36 PM
Bank holiday tomorrow Stu, no excuse not to get it sorted before lunch!
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: grinder on April 06, 2012, 02:49:45 PM
yeah thanks pal !! you coming up to help !! LOL
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: grinder on February 17, 2013, 07:22:55 PM
Dragging this thread up from the depths ...

Took the car out yesterday and had the exact same issues , wouldnt engage first at all and was setting off from traffic lights in 2nd :(

Today , i decide to have a nosey , so took off the TMIC so that i can see the slave moving , it seems to be moving just fine , so im ruling that out for the mo ( although not sure how far is far enough ! )

So bled the clutch to the best of my abilities , but the pedal felt no different

So onto the next plan , i did some googling and stumbled accross a thread on here that Mitch posted about his new clutch biting at the bottom and Clive suggested adjust the master cylinder push rod on top of the clutch pedal

So got upside down ,loosen the lock nut and i move the rod closer to the pedal ( im assuming that more of the rod closer to the pedal - the more fluid i could push thru ) - this completly locked the gear box out - and i mean , NO gears when running

so im a bit baffled at this point .. so stopped the car , and have a think

So i adjusted the push rod the other way ( pushing more of it into the cylinder )

Spoke the next door and he suggested starting it in gear with the clutch in to see if it was dragging

Tried that and it was fine .. no issues at all

So whilst it was running , i could get every gear with the clutch down

Took her out for a 10 mile spin and she acted perfectly , i could get every gear etc..

So no idea if i have fixed it , or what ??

Keeping my fingers crossed for now though and will see what happens over the next month or so
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: Prof on February 18, 2013, 07:34:15 AM
I\'d say eiher a worn clutch or possibly the clutch fork is a little bent meaning you\'re just on the edge of being able to disengage the clutch.
 
If it\'s not dragging then sounds like the pilot bearing is ok, but you may as well change that if you take the gear box off, which you\'ll have to do eventually for a worn clutch or bent clutch fork.
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: grinder on February 18, 2013, 07:47:12 AM
Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Getting more than :censored::censored::censored::censored:ed off with these cars at the mo ...

If its not a auto box going , it could be a clutch

If what i have done doesnt fix it , they are both being scrapped
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: Brett on February 18, 2013, 08:29:58 AM
Steady on old boy!

The clutch can be changed on the driveway - its not that hard nor expensive.

It will be fine - get out there and put some miles on it - otherwise you won\'t know for sure.
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: TiddlesRX7 on February 18, 2013, 10:46:39 AM
Has anyone got a beginers guide for changing the clutch? I\'ve got to do mine asap.

Ade
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: Prof on February 18, 2013, 11:11:03 AM
I\'ve done this job about 3 times now:
 
In short:
 
0) Disconnect the battery!!!
 
1) Remove exhaust, or at least some of it.
 
2) Remove heatshields
 
3) Undo Prop shaft from diff end - mark the bolts and make sure you keep any balancing washers with each nut/bolt pair
 
4) Slide prop shaft out of gearbox and cap / bag the end off the gearbox.
 
5) Remove the gear knob, gater and rubber cover to expose the 3 bolts holding the gear selector in place - once it\'s free, pull it up gently and pop it in a bag, it will be dripping with gearbox lube.
 
6) Remove as much as you need to off the top of the engine (for T2 it\'s usually intercooler and pipework for that.
 
7) Locate the 6 bolts holding the gearbox to the engine - there are 3 at the top, and 3 along the bottom - one of the bottom ones is a pass through bolt holding a bracket and the starter motor - a bit fiddly but can be reached underneath - losen then off, but don\'t undo them yet
 
8)  Remove electrical connectors from the gearbox - these are a large earth strap near the brake master cylinder, a small 2 way connector for the 1st gear switch and 4 separate connectors for the reverse / 5th switch.  Make sure the wires are free from the clips too.
 
9)  Now locate and undo the 2 bolts holding the slave cylinder on top of the gearbox, and using an elastic band and / or bag tie it up out of the way.  Don\'t press the clutch pedal now - you\'ll push the piston out of the end !
 
10)  Now remove the electrical connectors from the starter motor and remove the motor (2 bolts, 1 is also holding the gearbox)
 
11) Remove the remaining bolts holding the gearbox to engine.
 
12) Prop the engine with a bit of wood or something to stop it swinging forward when the gearbox is removed off the back - if you don\'t do this it will be a real pita to get the gearbox back on.
 
13) under the car - locate the prop shaft safety bracket and remove that (boomerang shaped thing)
 
14) Get a gearbox jack or trolley under the gearbox and remove the gearbox mounting bracket bolts from the chassis (4 bolts)
 
15)  Now wiggle the box backwards and down off the engine - there are 2 dowelled holes that will need to be released which tend to keep the gearbox stuck to the engine until they are released.
 
16) Once the gearbox is free - move it back to expose the clutch
 
17) The clutch bolts are torqued - so when you put the new one back, you\'ll need to read the service manual and get the torque settings.
 
refitting is reverse of removal ;)
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: grinder on February 18, 2013, 06:14:16 PM
You make it sound sooo easy :D

If you need a hand Ade ;)
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: Prof on February 19, 2013, 07:02:16 AM
Quote from: grinder;851042You make it sound sooo easy :D
 
If you need a hand Ade ;)

It really isn\'t that hard - it\'s just a long job - local specialists quote 3-4 hours for the job - so you are saving yourself a good £250 right off the bat, but the job normally takes me most of a whole day to do.  With a gearbox trolley jack it can be a one man job.
 
The only critical bit as far as I can see is making sure the engine doesn\'t tip forward once the weight of the gearbox comes off the back - which it will do unless you prop it some how.  It then becomes very difficult to get the gearbox aligned and back on the engine propelly, and if you try and push it on at an angle you risk mashing the pilot bearing :(
 
It\'s not a bad idea to check the rear seal on the engine when the clutch is off and also check the clutch fork for wear.  I also check the rear seal on the gearbox - as it\'s also easy to change when the prop shaft is off.
 
I\'d offer to help but I am miles from you guys !  :cheers
Title: Quick clutch question
Post by: Brett on February 19, 2013, 07:29:12 AM
Last time I did it I used another trolley jack to support the front of the engine :)