Mazda Rotary Club

General => Rotary and General Chit-Chat => Topic started by: B.Martin on March 02, 2012, 08:18:23 AM

Title: Return of the Rotary?
Post by: B.Martin on March 02, 2012, 08:18:23 AM
This has been buzzing around the internet for the past few days, i thought i\'d post it for those who might not have seen it,.

QuoteDespite plans to stop production of  the RX-8 sports coupe in June and no commitment from management to  replace it with another Wankel-powered car, Mazda (http://wardsauto.com/taxonomy/term/53620) may be on the verge of a major rotary breakthrough.
                                                                 Mitsuo Hitomi, general manager-powertrain  development, says the auto maker soon will complete development of an  all-new rotary engine that meets future fuel-economy and emissions  standards.

                                                             While Hitomi won’t confirm a completion date, his disclosure is  evidence the rotary is alive and well at Mazda and that a new car  powered by the engine could be on the way. “We think we’ve found a way to improve  the rotary’s fuel economy to be truly equal to that of conventional  piston engines and, if so, we believe we can reintroduce the rotary to  the market,” he tells WardsAuto in an interview.

                                                             Hitomi declines to pinpoint when that  might happen, but suggests the timeframe roughly would be equivalent to  any other engine plugged into one of Mazda’s vehicle programs. Best  guess is two years, once the application has been determined.
                                                             Fuel economy and emissions were improved  in the developmental engine “first, by changing the shape of the  troichoid housing,” the Mazda executive says.
                                                             “The rotary has many seals, and  ‘sealability,’ particularly at the apex, or tip, of the rotor has been a  longstanding problem” dating back to the mid-1960s and the Cosmo Sport,  Mazda’s first rotary car.

                                                             “Even with our current 1.3L Renesisrotary, gaps  can develop between the apex seal and troichoid housing in light-load  operation when imbalances in centrifugal force and gas pressure occur,”  he says.
                                                             Specifically, centrifugal force pushes the seal onto the housing  surface. In low engine-rpm ranges, or under low-load conditions, gas  pressure in the combustion chamber can cause the seal to lift off the  surface, resulting in combustion gas leaking into the next chamber.
                                                                 By changing the shape of the troichoid  housing, the seals remain flush to the housing, Hitomi says. “In  addition to reducing emissions, better sealing improves fuel economy and  overall performance.”

                                                            A second engineering enhancement focuses on ignition.
                                                               “I can’t specify how we plan to address  this problem,” the Mazda engineer says, “but the rotary’s spark plug is  in a recessed position (below the housing surface), compared to that of a  piston engine.

                                                             “This causes ignitability problems and increases fuel  consumption. We’ve found a way to make dramatic improvements,” he says.
                                                            In June, AutoCar reported Mazda would introduce a laser-injection system to replace conventional spark plugs.
Hitomi counters popular perception that a rotary engine’s fuel economy is inherently poor.
                                                             “In the past, Mazda engineers made a  conscious decision to focus on the rotary’s weaker points – low torque,  for instance,” he says. “This led to adopting a complicated and large  variable-intake system, as an example.

                                                             “Moving forward, we plan to put greater  emphasis on the rotary’s strong points – low vibration, compact size and  high power output. And in this way, we can improve fuel economy.”
                                                            One result of that: Mazda will simplify the intake system, which in turn will reduce engine size.
                                                             Hitomi believes the new engine eventually  will be adopted for extended-range electric vehicles like the Chevrolet  Volt. He doesn’t say so, but that could mean a future RX-8, RX-9 or  even an RX-7 EREV.

                                                             Mazda isn’t alone in looking at EREV applications for  rotary engines, which are drawing interest from others, including  engineering experts AVL, for their compact size and light weight.
                                                             The new Mazda engine will not necessarily  be the 16-X prototype displayed at the 2007 Tokyo Motor Show, which  reportedly was targeted at 1.6L in displacement and would generate 350  hp.
                                                           
Mazda’s Skyactiv fuel-efficiency technology could be applied to the new rotary, as well.
                                                             “I think that whatever engine we  introduce – conventional gasoline and diesel or rotary – the technology  is applicable,” Hitomi says.
                                                             At a press briefing in December, Hirotaka  Kanazawa, senior managing executive officer in charge of Mazda’s  technical operations, openly discussed three Skyactiv engine series: the  gasoline Skyactiv-G now on the market, diesel Skyactiv-D and rotary  Skyactiv-R.

                                                             Since 1967, when Mazda introduced Cosmo Sport, the auto maker has  sold nearly 2 million rotary vehicles. In the engine’s 1970s heyday,  four out of five Mazdas sold in the U.S. were rotaries.
http://wardsauto.com/vehicles-amp-technology/mazda-design-breakthrough-may-give-rotary-new-life
Title: Return of the Rotary?
Post by: TiddlesRX7 on March 02, 2012, 10:58:15 AM
Sounds good to me!
Title: Return of the Rotary?
Post by: Ada7 on March 02, 2012, 11:34:09 AM
Wish they get on with it. The whole rotary world is waiting for something new to come out

Adam
Title: Return of the Rotary?
Post by: TiddlesRX7 on March 02, 2012, 01:18:21 PM
It is but I\'d rather they took their time with it and got it right rather than rush it out only to have problems.
Title: Return of the Rotary?
Post by: Grant Monkhouse on March 02, 2012, 02:24:30 PM
2 years is a long time to wait, the european emmissions standards will no doubt have become more rediculous by that time and this new engine/cars will more than likely just end up being prototypes for advertising, a bit like the furai. even though that did actually run.
 
they would be better offering the current mx5 with the renesis engines in them from the factory/shop floor like they intended to so in the first place with the current mx5.
Title: Return of the Rotary?
Post by: B.Martin on March 02, 2012, 02:43:37 PM
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;814578they would be better offering the current mx5 with the renesis engines in them from the factory/shop floor like they intended to so in the first place with the current mx5.
I\'d like to see that, i remember i got a redline mag with a MX-5 renensis in it. Looked very factory fit i\'ll see if i can find it.

Edit - i found it here -> http://www.mx5-twins.de/RX-55_Fotoshooting/index.html
Title: Return of the Rotary?
Post by: Ada7 on March 02, 2012, 03:54:48 PM
For me they\'ve now got to produce something that can compete with the \'now not so new\' Datsan GTR

Adam
Title: Return of the Rotary?
Post by: bmatharu on March 02, 2012, 04:03:52 PM
That\'s a different ball game though Adam, a different price bracket and market...
Title: Return of the Rotary?
Post by: B.Martin on March 02, 2012, 04:37:28 PM
They should certainly compete with this new Subaru BRZ and the Toyota GT-86, that is perfect for mazda to challenge!
Title: Return of the Rotary?
Post by: Ada7 on March 02, 2012, 04:40:28 PM
Quote from: bmatharu;814591That\'s a different ball game though Adam, a different price bracket and market...

No reason that they can\'t though. The FD was made and priced to compete with the Porkers of the time so why not build something that can slug it out with the other big boys in the playground

Adam
Title: Return of the Rotary?
Post by: B.Martin on March 02, 2012, 04:49:08 PM
The market is not really that big for it though, i mean the GTR probably doesn\'t sell that many models really.
Title: Return of the Rotary?
Post by: Grant Monkhouse on March 02, 2012, 05:16:54 PM
For Mazda to compete with the GTR they would need to run a 3rotor or the new 2 rotor with a single turbo.

4wd would be needed and as Mazda like to hone their cars around light weight strength and efficiency they won\'t even consider 4WD IMO.

I do like the mention in the report of variable intakes that Mazda will simplify for production. I can see now if they do variable length intakes many people having clear air bids to show off the fancy intakes.
Title: Return of the Rotary?
Post by: Will66 on March 02, 2012, 05:20:42 PM
The reason the Renesis fits in the mk III MX-5 so well is that the Mk III MX-5 uses a modified RX8 chassis, that conversion was done with the driveline from a damaged RX8.

I can see something along the lines of the Subaru BRZ working, if they can squeeze more mpg out of it.
Title: Return of the Rotary?
Post by: Grant Monkhouse on March 02, 2012, 05:23:37 PM
Quote from: B.Martin;814582I\'d like to see that, i remember i got a redline mag with a MX-5 renensis in it. Looked very factory fit i\'ll see if i can find it.

Edit - i found it here -> http://www.mx5-twins.de/RX-55_Fotoshooting/index.html

There was a feature in banzai magazine last year, a company was doing it as a conversion, the transfer looked like factory standards. Aparently the rx8 and mx5 have similar parts used for the steering/suspension so it all prety much bolts straight into the mx5 from the rx8.

However total cost for this conversion was in the range of 40,000 euros. You have to buy a new mx5 and a donor rx8 for the engine and associated bits.
Title: Return of the Rotary?
Post by: jetpilot on March 02, 2012, 06:10:53 PM
Quote from: B.Martin;814595They should certainly compete with this new Subaru BRZ and the Toyota GT-86, that is perfect for mazda to challenge!

I am not sure its a challenge, they only need one rotor to compete with that!
Title: Return of the Rotary?
Post by: bmatharu on March 02, 2012, 06:16:05 PM
Yeah I agree. Needs to be hotter than the BRZ...but GTR level indicates high cost which is just a bit rubbish really. Ideal situation is BRZ price point with a step up in performance, achieved through FD style light weight and superior power. If Mazda gets this engine right, rotary uptake could end up being a lot higher than in the past
Title: Return of the Rotary?
Post by: Grant Monkhouse on March 02, 2012, 06:25:51 PM
If they make a new rx7 then I think it would be a rival for the 370Z for price range and performance. 30,000 brand new, 300+ HP but the Z will be 4 years old by the time the rotary is released at the earliest.

Hmm, it should be better than the toybaru thing though.
Title: Return of the Rotary?
Post by: jetpilot on March 02, 2012, 06:33:02 PM
Quote from: bmatharu;814620Yeah I agree. Needs to be hotter than the BRZ...but GTR level indicates high cost which is just a bit rubbish really. Ideal situation is BRZ price point with a step up in performance, achieved through FD style light weight and superior power. If Mazda gets this engine right, rotary uptake could end up being a lot higher than in the past

I think it will need a good few years of production and success for people to have faith in a rotary. or should i say, the masses to have faith.

I actually quite like the fact rotaries are frowned upon and not for the masses to be honest!

What was the original FD price point in the UK, £32k, 20 years ago, that was a lot of money, still is even by todays standards. I dont see any reason why they couldnt roll something out to compete with the GTR. The GTR has always had the reputation for being a fast car, but a car which was fast due to its computer trickery rather than its driver.

The GT86 is being heralded because of its back to basics approach, so yes please to a new version of the Rx7 in a Furai body please!
Title: Return of the Rotary?
Post by: oyvindjs on March 06, 2012, 12:48:37 AM
RELEASE THE KRAKEN!!!!! Uhm, the Furai i mean!  As it looks now, please... cause that thing is really making my pants move around...!  The headlights and front... the rear roof.....GAWD!
Title: Return of the Rotary?
Post by: re japi on March 06, 2012, 03:33:03 AM
I have been wondering why Mazdas new rotary is taking so long to come on sale. Maybe its just that they want to "over engineer" that new motor... :)
Title: Return of the Rotary?
Post by: Ricco_04 on March 07, 2012, 08:43:46 AM
IIRC the fd came out with a £37,000 price tag in the uk (bearing in mind this was 1992 as well!). When Porsche released their new motor, Mazda slashed the price down to £28,500!!  The government didn\'t like this and ordered Mazda to pay the difference back - another reason they stopped officially importing into the uk as early as 1995!

Anyway, this new engine sounds like it is going to be a serious improvement (if it is to be believed) so I can\'t wait to see what the new motor is going to be like (probably more so than the car they will put it in!)