Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: Robertio on July 03, 2004, 07:39:35 PM
Post by: Robertio on July 03, 2004, 07:39:35 PM
The latest in the long line of my failures to get any meaningful bhp out of my engine:
To cut a long story short I finally managed to kill one of my Iannetti ceramics today. Absolutely no idea why it decided to let go other than it is a rotary and apparently these things are to be expected.
My highly trained team of mechanics got the car running with all mods in place :) Took it out with the wideband on and after a few runs played around with the gain on the boost controller, sure enough it spooled up a bit quicker. Had a few more runs at this setting - only running 10psi on BNR uprated twins run non-sequentially and all seemed well.
No knock values / det or anything amiss, took it round to have another run and fine in second, short shifted into third and at about 4.5k (so it hadn\'t quite reached 10psi) there was a pop sound, for all the world like an intercooler hose coming off.
Pulled in and it stalled, lifted the bonnet and all hoses correct and accounted for, took it back to the garage and took the engine bay apart. Having checked everything seemed OK a quick rotor check was carried out and the front was found to be dead.
As I said, nothing seemed amiss, AFR was 11.3 at the point of bang, and as far as we can tell nothing caused it. So after getting on for 12k miles my Iannetti\'d street ported engine checked out for some reason it hasn\'t felt necessary to tell me, it\'s never made huge power and today it felt about 40bhp down on when it was running the stock turbos (although this may have been down to the more subtle power delivery).
Very disappointed to say the least as many thousands were put into getting the car ready for TOTB and now it is just not going to be happening :(
To cut a long story short I finally managed to kill one of my Iannetti ceramics today. Absolutely no idea why it decided to let go other than it is a rotary and apparently these things are to be expected.
My highly trained team of mechanics got the car running with all mods in place :) Took it out with the wideband on and after a few runs played around with the gain on the boost controller, sure enough it spooled up a bit quicker. Had a few more runs at this setting - only running 10psi on BNR uprated twins run non-sequentially and all seemed well.
No knock values / det or anything amiss, took it round to have another run and fine in second, short shifted into third and at about 4.5k (so it hadn\'t quite reached 10psi) there was a pop sound, for all the world like an intercooler hose coming off.
Pulled in and it stalled, lifted the bonnet and all hoses correct and accounted for, took it back to the garage and took the engine bay apart. Having checked everything seemed OK a quick rotor check was carried out and the front was found to be dead.
As I said, nothing seemed amiss, AFR was 11.3 at the point of bang, and as far as we can tell nothing caused it. So after getting on for 12k miles my Iannetti\'d street ported engine checked out for some reason it hasn\'t felt necessary to tell me, it\'s never made huge power and today it felt about 40bhp down on when it was running the stock turbos (although this may have been down to the more subtle power delivery).
Very disappointed to say the least as many thousands were put into getting the car ready for TOTB and now it is just not going to be happening :(
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: scooby_si on July 03, 2004, 07:57:09 PM
Post by: scooby_si on July 03, 2004, 07:57:09 PM
sheet man sorry to hear that (http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/traurig/sad-smiley-034.gif) specially in such non extreme & unwanted (not that it ever is) circumstances....
Hope ya can see yer way to progress further & get to bottom (http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/tweetz/moon.gif) of yer issues....
Si
Hope ya can see yer way to progress further & get to bottom (http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/tweetz/moon.gif) of yer issues....
Si
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: DRAGON on July 03, 2004, 11:42:11 PM
Post by: DRAGON on July 03, 2004, 11:42:11 PM
Gutted for you. I\'ve been there its not nice. Glad your having a go though.
Get some normal apex seals get her rebuilt. And before you get her on boost again try and find the problem. Are both exhaust ports even in colour?
Get some normal apex seals get her rebuilt. And before you get her on boost again try and find the problem. Are both exhaust ports even in colour?
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: Archbish on July 04, 2004, 09:30:40 AM
Post by: Archbish on July 04, 2004, 09:30:40 AM
Ah shit. sorry mate - sending a big ol\' hug.
Good luck with getting her running.
OJ
Good luck with getting her running.
OJ
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: clive on July 04, 2004, 09:54:04 AM
Post by: clive on July 04, 2004, 09:54:04 AM
Real sad to hear your engine is not well,
Fingers crossed, but things aren\'t always what they appear, at the beginning of last year l thought l had lost a rotor and it turned out to be a carboned up tip that had stuck in from where it hadn\'t been mapped !!!!
l know this maybe clutching but it just maybe not what you think. :( :(
Fingers crossed, but things aren\'t always what they appear, at the beginning of last year l thought l had lost a rotor and it turned out to be a carboned up tip that had stuck in from where it hadn\'t been mapped !!!!
l know this maybe clutching but it just maybe not what you think. :( :(
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: Carl on July 04, 2004, 10:38:55 AM
Post by: Carl on July 04, 2004, 10:38:55 AM
Hi Robbie,
Sorry to hear that your engine has gone.
What timing were you running?
What fuel?Was it old fuel or fresh?Octane?
What spark plugs?
11.3 is a bit lean.
Damage could have been done prior to these runs,and only now shown itself.Don\'t forget the hammering it has had on trackdays too.
Let me know if I can help.I will do all I can to assist you.
As your warranty was for 12000 miles(Just reached)
if you send me the engine I will repair it for a parts only cost.
I think it would be good for me to look at it.
Kind regards
Carl
Sorry to hear that your engine has gone.
What timing were you running?
What fuel?Was it old fuel or fresh?Octane?
What spark plugs?
11.3 is a bit lean.
Damage could have been done prior to these runs,and only now shown itself.Don\'t forget the hammering it has had on trackdays too.
Let me know if I can help.I will do all I can to assist you.
As your warranty was for 12000 miles(Just reached)
if you send me the engine I will repair it for a parts only cost.
I think it would be good for me to look at it.
Kind regards
Carl
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: Glenn Butcher on July 04, 2004, 12:17:43 PM
Post by: Glenn Butcher on July 04, 2004, 12:17:43 PM
What\'s going on man!?!?!?!?
Robertio - please post up the details Carl has asked for. Timing probably being the most important.
Engines just shouldn\'t be failing like this!
Robertio - please post up the details Carl has asked for. Timing probably being the most important.
Engines just shouldn\'t be failing like this!
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: 20B_boy on July 04, 2004, 04:22:15 PM
Post by: 20B_boy on July 04, 2004, 04:22:15 PM
Damn sorry to hear that Rob :(
I know you\'ve (and poor Marc at The Garage - and Bob your part time lacky! :)) been putting every thing into getting the car running again over the last months...
I know you\'ve (and poor Marc at The Garage - and Bob your part time lacky! :)) been putting every thing into getting the car running again over the last months...
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: yonner on July 04, 2004, 10:15:50 PM
Post by: yonner on July 04, 2004, 10:15:50 PM
what ecu do you have and who is remaping it for u. i hate to see someone els in my position os far as a blown engin goes :S best of luck to fixing it m8
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: Robertio on July 04, 2004, 10:28:07 PM
Post by: Robertio on July 04, 2004, 10:28:07 PM
What timing were you running?
In the area where it died it was within 1 of the base map leading, with a slightly narrower than base map split
What fuel?Was it old fuel or fresh?Octane?
Fuel was old (Optimax & 1/2 bottle of NF) with a fresh helping of booster. Couldn\'t really do much else as the car had not far off a full tank of fuel (had never planned on having it off the road for this long).
What spark plugs?
9\'s, the 10\'s hadn\'t turned up in time so we ran it on 9\'s to sort out the low boost map.
11.3 is a bit lean.
Accepted it is slightly leaner than ideal, but at the low rpm and boost I would have imagined it to be acceptable. It was richer at higher rpm (and lower for that matter).
Damage could have been done prior to these runs,and only now shown itself.Don\'t forget the hammering it has had on trackdays too.
It showed no sign of any problem before this point, but obviously an earlier problem could have led to the failure - but I would imagine that something must have triggered it to go at this particular moment.
It has only done 500 miles on track, almost all the other 11k were done cruising on motorways off-boost - generally it only had one on-boost run per journey. It is not a town car and it never did short journeys. If a rotory is only capable of 500 miles on boost then I\'d be best getting rid of it as soon as it is running as the car should have been running 2k+ miles on-track this year had things gone to plan.
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: Carl on July 05, 2004, 12:05:19 AM
Post by: Carl on July 05, 2004, 12:05:19 AM
Hi Robbie,
Thanks for putting up the info.
Don\'t lose heart over this,I agree that the engine should last a lot longer with the type of driving you have done.
I will say that the mapping side of rotaries is critical.I can help you with that in the future if you would like but like anything,for something good it does cost a little more.
Out of interest Robbie since you got it running again what sort of mileage did you do?
Can you put up a pic of the spark plugs and which is which please?The colour may indicate whether the front rotor is running leaner than the rear.The A/Fs maybe a balance of the both but one maybe quite lean and the other rich,giving an average that is reasonable but masking the problem.
Kind regards
Carl
Thanks for putting up the info.
Don\'t lose heart over this,I agree that the engine should last a lot longer with the type of driving you have done.
I will say that the mapping side of rotaries is critical.I can help you with that in the future if you would like but like anything,for something good it does cost a little more.
Out of interest Robbie since you got it running again what sort of mileage did you do?
Can you put up a pic of the spark plugs and which is which please?The colour may indicate whether the front rotor is running leaner than the rear.The A/Fs maybe a balance of the both but one maybe quite lean and the other rich,giving an average that is reasonable but masking the problem.
Kind regards
Carl
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: Robertio on July 05, 2004, 07:37:45 AM
Post by: Robertio on July 05, 2004, 07:37:45 AM
It was running for only 20 miles or so on Saturday before it went pop. Out around testing loop a few times (just guessing on mileage), to try to set it up so that it could be driven properly after that.
With the car being 20 miles away picts are a bit hard to come by, but both plugs were black rich, one dry, the other wet.
With the car being 20 miles away picts are a bit hard to come by, but both plugs were black rich, one dry, the other wet.
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: John Yorke on July 05, 2004, 08:28:44 AM
Post by: John Yorke on July 05, 2004, 08:28:44 AM
Robbie gutted for you mate:( It seems an age since you had the car on the road. I do know FD\'s do not like old fuel, lets hope it is not a blown seal, it has been known for them to stick in the rotor.
Best of luck:wave
John
Best of luck:wave
John
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: Donato on July 05, 2004, 08:54:29 AM
Post by: Donato on July 05, 2004, 08:54:29 AM
Really sorry to hear that Robbie.
Gutted for you.
If you want to keep your costs down i would be happy to help with engine removal, (had a bit of practice now..).
If you need a hand with anything give me a call.
Regards
Donato
Gutted for you.
If you want to keep your costs down i would be happy to help with engine removal, (had a bit of practice now..).
If you need a hand with anything give me a call.
Regards
Donato
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: bnaellis on July 05, 2004, 10:03:26 AM
Post by: bnaellis on July 05, 2004, 10:03:26 AM
Sorry for short engine demise Rob. I don\'t think there is anything wrong with your afr or your boost or your timing or your plug rating (9) at that boost. Best you can do is pull it apart and I guess all shall be revealed.
rgds
rgds
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: yonner on July 05, 2004, 12:57:07 PM
Post by: yonner on July 05, 2004, 12:57:07 PM
ill take u up on that offer :D:D happy birthday to me happy birth day to me :(
QuoteOriginally posted by Donato
Really sorry to hear that Robbie.
Gutted for you.
If you want to keep your costs down i would be happy to help with engine removal, (had a bit of practice now..).
If you need a hand with anything give me a call.
Regards
Donato
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: chris on July 05, 2004, 01:17:43 PM
Post by: chris on July 05, 2004, 01:17:43 PM
Sorry to here that mate
I can only offer my ten penneth.
I also had a engine fail just before rotorstock, also when tuning and also with good mixtures.
The only reason that was deemed the cause was Plugs, I was also running 9\'s all round.
Since rebuilding it again the engine, was fitted with a set of supercool 11.5\'s and was logged again (due to the manner of my 2 x single turbo set up, this was purely on the offending front rotor) mixtures were absolutely fine and since has been thrashed on every outing, including a fair beating down to le-mans.
I was very dubious that plugs could cause this but as the miles keep clocking up my confidence in this is growing.
These things are fickle beasts and spark plugs and leads are definate causes of their demise, once rebuilt go for some 10.5\'s and I would guess if your plug leads are good, then you will have no problems.
good luck and I hope to see you and your car at TOTB III to thrash me down the strip;)
Chris
I can only offer my ten penneth.
I also had a engine fail just before rotorstock, also when tuning and also with good mixtures.
The only reason that was deemed the cause was Plugs, I was also running 9\'s all round.
Since rebuilding it again the engine, was fitted with a set of supercool 11.5\'s and was logged again (due to the manner of my 2 x single turbo set up, this was purely on the offending front rotor) mixtures were absolutely fine and since has been thrashed on every outing, including a fair beating down to le-mans.
I was very dubious that plugs could cause this but as the miles keep clocking up my confidence in this is growing.
These things are fickle beasts and spark plugs and leads are definate causes of their demise, once rebuilt go for some 10.5\'s and I would guess if your plug leads are good, then you will have no problems.
good luck and I hope to see you and your car at TOTB III to thrash me down the strip;)
Chris
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: bobster on July 05, 2004, 01:30:02 PM
Post by: bobster on July 05, 2004, 01:30:02 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by yonner
ill take u up on that offer :D:D happy birthday to me happy birth day to me :(
Wait and see how we get on installing the rebuilt engine ;)
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: Donato on July 05, 2004, 01:58:57 PM
Post by: Donato on July 05, 2004, 01:58:57 PM
I have every confidence!! :)
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: scooby_si on July 05, 2004, 06:29:32 PM
Post by: scooby_si on July 05, 2004, 06:29:32 PM
So (engages mongol mode 
) will 7\'s & 9\'s as yer supposed to use be even worse then?
Si (intreged & healthily paranoid....
)
) will 7\'s & 9\'s as yer supposed to use be even worse then?Si (intreged & healthily paranoid....
)
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: Robertio on July 05, 2004, 07:04:01 PM
Post by: Robertio on July 05, 2004, 07:04:01 PM
7&9 on bone stock car
9\'s all round for lightly modded
10+ on high boost applications.
Plugs were a concern for the planned boost which is why 10s were going in, but I\'ve been running more than 10psi on the stock twins on 9\'s no problems (current plugs might have done 60 miles in total) up until the turbo change.
Thanks for the offer Donato, but it\'s OK it doesn\'t take long for The Garage to remove my engine now :o if that\'s how things are going to progress.
The car might be back on the road this year, but the new unexpected cost takes me into next years wages (all this years went getting it ready for TOTB) so it probably wont even be run in until next year. That\'ll be a marvelous >1.10 per mile insurance cost for the last year :eek:
9\'s all round for lightly modded
10+ on high boost applications.
Plugs were a concern for the planned boost which is why 10s were going in, but I\'ve been running more than 10psi on the stock twins on 9\'s no problems (current plugs might have done 60 miles in total) up until the turbo change.
Thanks for the offer Donato, but it\'s OK it doesn\'t take long for The Garage to remove my engine now :o if that\'s how things are going to progress.
The car might be back on the road this year, but the new unexpected cost takes me into next years wages (all this years went getting it ready for TOTB) so it probably wont even be run in until next year. That\'ll be a marvelous >1.10 per mile insurance cost for the last year :eek:
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: Carl on July 05, 2004, 07:08:17 PM
Post by: Carl on July 05, 2004, 07:08:17 PM
Hi Robbie,
PM me if you want to about things.We have got to get you going asap!
Kind regards
Carl
PM me if you want to about things.We have got to get you going asap!
Kind regards
Carl
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: antnicuk on July 05, 2004, 08:31:37 PM
Post by: antnicuk on July 05, 2004, 08:31:37 PM
mine had only done 2.5 k before it went pop, or not as the case may be, it had jammed a tip in the rotor groove, which just meant a tear down and rebuild with just a couple of gasgets, i was running 9s, dont know if that caused it, the only other thing i could think of is one of my oil injection lines was split and the oil was pissing out. Mine did the same as yours, upto about 4.5k rpm 10 psi or so and then bang. Was a cheap rebuild though.
I hope you get it sorted soon.
I hope you get it sorted soon.
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: Timrxmotors on July 05, 2004, 08:50:50 PM
Post by: Timrxmotors on July 05, 2004, 08:50:50 PM
Before you take the engine out,compression test the good rotor.Look for 7 bar,or 100psi minimum.I only had 5 bar on one piece ceramics.
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: bobster on July 05, 2004, 08:51:22 PM
Post by: bobster on July 05, 2004, 08:51:22 PM
I don\'t think we got a single pop (in terms of compression) off of the front rotor, with the leading plug out. I find it difficult to believe that it could be a stuck Apex seal. Surely you would have to lose at least 2 for that to happen.
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: DRAGON on July 05, 2004, 09:09:24 PM
Post by: DRAGON on July 05, 2004, 09:09:24 PM
I doubt it is the plugs, 9s should be fine, for that set-up, boost, a/f, ignition etc.
Surely you cant of bust a seal, I thought the ceramics are indestructable:rollin
Surely you cant of bust a seal, I thought the ceramics are indestructable:rollin
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: muzzyd on July 06, 2004, 12:57:06 PM
Post by: muzzyd on July 06, 2004, 12:57:06 PM
Sorry to hear about the engine mate, you aint having much luck so far. heres hoping its something simple and cheap!
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: 20B_boy on July 06, 2004, 05:24:53 PM
Post by: 20B_boy on July 06, 2004, 05:24:53 PM
Have you managed to compression test it properly yet Rob?
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: Robertio on July 06, 2004, 06:27:43 PM
Post by: Robertio on July 06, 2004, 06:27:43 PM
Nope, we have no access to a rotory compression testers in this part of the world so it\'s not likely to happen unless Ant is doing a stunningly good deal on them.
Ross - I can only claim I didn\'t see an iceberg before or after ;)
Ross - I can only claim I didn\'t see an iceberg before or after ;)
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: Timrxmotors on July 06, 2004, 08:30:49 PM
Post by: Timrxmotors on July 06, 2004, 08:30:49 PM
Use a normal compression tester,like any garage will have,or get one from Halfords,less than £20.
Title: Robertio in dead engine shocker :-(
Post by: Carl on July 06, 2004, 10:33:39 PM
Post by: Carl on July 06, 2004, 10:33:39 PM
I don\'t think it is a good idea to be cranking the engine over anymore which may create more unnecessary damage.
A thorough check by Robbie appears to have already confirmed that at least 2 apex seals have either got damaged or are carbon locked.
The most likely being damaged in my opinion,but either way the engine needs to come apart and be sorted.
I would like to see what has happened to it to confirm at least a starting point in order to try to work backwards to determine the cause.
Can you at least get the engine down to me Robbie?I will pull her apart and see what has gone wrong so that we all know rather than keep guessing.
Kind regards
Carl;)
A thorough check by Robbie appears to have already confirmed that at least 2 apex seals have either got damaged or are carbon locked.
The most likely being damaged in my opinion,but either way the engine needs to come apart and be sorted.
I would like to see what has happened to it to confirm at least a starting point in order to try to work backwards to determine the cause.
Can you at least get the engine down to me Robbie?I will pull her apart and see what has gone wrong so that we all know rather than keep guessing.
Kind regards
Carl;)