hi guys i have started to fit a VAG 20v motor , i looked at lots of different types of engine and this one seems the best for the job. i didnt want to fit a v8 as its lots of work and to much money, the 20v is 210 bhp stock ( S3 / TT / cupra R ) but 260 is easy and 400 is doable , the later 2.0L motor is the same with more power avaliable. i am doing one for myself and one for a freind of mine ( wendle ) she has put a little post in the rx8 section but i thought i would post here as per v8 talk ( dont want to rock the boat to much ). i am using a adapter plate to the rx8 gearbox so i can use std rx clutch/starter etc i am having a bespoke flywheel made as well. not many pics yet but i will take more as i go along
(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m468/tinker--27/th_f859c917.jpg) (http://s335.photobucket.com/albums/m468/tinker--27/?action=view¤t=f859c917.jpg)
(http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m468/tinker--27/th_a7449663.jpg) (http://s335.photobucket.com/albums/m468/tinker--27/?action=view¤t=a7449663.jpg)
Okay I\'m interested, the 20v turbo VAG lump is widely praised and I\'ve only heard good things. If you can keep the rwd platform and stuff you could be onto a really good thing there, I\'m interested so keep us updated.
(I don\'t approve the RE removal mind) ;)
if it goes to plan it i will leave the rack / steering as stock not moving anything, std gearbox prop set up ,std rad,front mount intercooler, i hopefully will do a kit if people are interested but the wiring is a pain !!
Where does the engine sit in the car as to the position of the rotary?
As for wiring can you not keep the rx8 ecu in there and run a standalone just for the engine? Easier said than done but thinking simple is good.
How much heavier is the piston lump?
so... basically.. what you are saying is, you are turning your Mazda RX8 into a Mazda 8?
Well, each to their own, it will be different for sure.
I cant help but ask why though, no critisism intended here. :)
its a small motor i should sit behind the rack ,not sure on the weight of the rotary as i did not weigh it before selling it , if anyone can tell me i can weigh the20v , i am looking into the wiring side of it
now that is very clever and i reckon if you could sort the wiring out as a kit, you are onto a definite winner. An RX8 with more power torque and fuel economy can only be a good thing. keep us updated.
Well the rx8 engine is a bit naff, uneconomic and rather limited in terms of tuning without big expenditure. I don\'t feel as defensive with the rx8 as I do with the 7\'s, I think because the RX8 doesn\'t have the same iconic stature as the 7\'s, I\'m probably opening a can of worms almost as large as the 20v turbo conversion here.
I was trying to say what antnicuk just said.
i am doing it because its a good car but they are getting scrapped which is a shame and more people buy these who are not rotary lovers but just like the car so want it reliable and on the road
I think this is great but not sure what would happen to the great characteristic handling of them with that engine in, buuut TBH most people including my self wouldn\'t be able to tell the difference in handling from either. Only downside I can see is that the 9500 rom tachometer will never get anywhere near those kind of rpms :(
Interesting conversion. Been seeing the bottom fall out of the RX8 market, which is a shame with it being a seriously capable car.
One freaky question running through my head would be would the 2lt TT diesel engine fit on the same adapter. Would make a very cool daily driver with a longer differential over a LPG Renesis.
Shaun
Quote from: shaunwil;805908Interesting conversion. Been seeing the bottom fall out of the RX8 market, which is a shame with it being a seriously capable car.
One freaky question running through my head would be would the 2lt TT diesel engine fit on the same adapter. Would make a very cool daily driver with a longer differential over a LPG Renesis.
Shaun
Bottom of the barrel well and truly hit with this question :( lol
the rev range is the priblem on he tdi , and diff swaps are big money so untill a deisel revs to 7k its a no go really
are you going to change the final drive ? as potentially the top speed may be lower then stock as the VAG petrol does not rev has high
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;805910Bottom of the barrel well and truly hit with this question :( lol
Don\'t Despair, its only a question. I have mad thoughts that don\'t really go anywhere :rolleyes:
I\'d be more likely LPG\'ing a RX8 renesis than swapping engine, but such an awesome driving car with 50mpg would be awesome too. Shame the sound would be naff though.
The rx8 isn\'t a rare car and this will happen with dead cars.
Shaun
im not changing it at the moment im going to see how it is , they rev to 7k if needed but depending on spec . the vag motor will make way more torque so we will see how it drives ( im sure it will be good)
Great project. :) That engine is easy to update and get more power. And dont need massive amounts of money to do it.
I think it would be nice allday car. I wouldnt worry about finaldrive. You can think it later, when car is ready and you can see what kind of mpg itl do... :)
My vote is to keep the engine bay free and mid mount it - I was looking at one of these for a mid engined car project, just mount the engine in the rear and the box is a front transaxle meaning that it would still be rear wheel drive, also the Audi A8 V8 engine apparently bolts up fine to an A4 front transaxle :D
I\'ve seen a couple of these conversions now, if you don\'t like the rotary then they\'re okay. Personally I\'d never change out my rotary engine for a piston engine, since it looks like you\'re doing it to a 192 then with a 7000 rpm redline you shouldn\'t lose out much in top speed, if it\'s onto a 231 then you would since that needs all 9000 rpm to make its top speed.
Whilst i love your inventiveness and ability to perform such conversions, i just dont get it! The soul of both the 7 & 8 is the engine, if you want something uber reliable and bullet proof, dont buy a rotary! :)
Well an RX8 with a blown engine is worth about £1500, cheap car to have as a project, don\'t really like the rensis engine, rotaries should either be heavily ported or have a turbo fitted, they should be easy to get a lot more power out of.
Quote from: m1tch;805975Well an RX8 with a blown engine is worth about £1500, cheap car to have as a project, don\'t really like the rensis engine, rotaries should either be heavily ported or have a turbo fitted, they should be easy to get a lot more power out of.
Understood, but, add a conversion on that and your way over a rebuild, then you have to factor in, what someone is prepared to pay for a rx8 with a conversion! Sorry, bar the fun aspect to "tinkering" to do the conversion, i just dont get it :)
Will be watching with interest :)
Quote from: m1tch;805975Well an RX8 with a blown engine is worth about £1500, cheap car to have as a project, don\'t really like the rensis engine, rotaries should either be heavily ported or have a turbo fitted, they should be easy to get a lot more power out of.
rx8 are heavily ported dude. ports are so big that even racing beats porting templates dont reomve much more material.
RX-8\'s need a Greddy turbo kit or a supercharger conversion is what he meant to say.
RX8s need the engine throwing and a single turbo REW bridge port motor throwing in there. all electronics thrown + interior all setup for a monster go round corners race car, maybe not too comfy on the road though??
you can turbocharge a RX8 Renisis engine quite well no need to chuck it in my eyes
i know, having seen turblowns power production theyre great, but hes using E85. not something that is easy to get over here now
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;806024i know, having seen turblowns power production theyre great, but hes using E85. not something that is easy to get over here now
regular pump gas + AI with window washer fluid in the small tank should provide close to the same power outputs.
Turblown setups are producing peak power comparable to majority of turbocharged 13Bs. Honestly, 90% of Rx-7 people didn´t breach that self imposed limit of 15 psi boost, limiting them to around 400 rwhp. Turblown GT35R kit on Renesis does it at 10 psi...
They are on American dynos though. Don\'t they give higher figures?
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;806061They are on American dynos though. Don\'t they give higher figures?
depends. They use both dynapaks and mustang dynos now, and majority of posts on the dyno-papers now either state what dyno is used, or its being asked for by another person posting in that thread.
Cant remember wich dyno that gives more or less hp, but they now do recalculate this to compensate for the different dynos. There is a dyno thread on RX7club where a dude tests the BNR setup on both dynos to get some numbers on this, but cant find it right now.
US ppl are more aware of this now than we euros might think ;)
Quote from: Miki;806060Turblown setups are producing peak power comparable to majority of turbocharged 13Bs. Honestly, 90% of Rx-7 people didn´t breach that self imposed limit of 15 psi boost, limiting them to around 400 rwhp. Turblown GT35R kit on Renesis does it at 10 psi...
I looked into this long and hard when i was torn between getting back into an Fd or going for a Rx8, about 6 months ago. The most i could see people getting in 8\'s was 300hp, limited by the new i think, centre porting, to meet emissions, so not sure where you get your 400 rwhp from as i couldnt find anything close to that!
Most people going FI were getting 300 bhp on 8 psi and standard fuel systems before people were pulling engines apart, if you uprate the fuel system and have the engine rebuilt with forced induction in mind then you can make very good power. Brilliant chassis too, the structure is very stiff and it changes direction brilliantly. Turblown\'s kit\'s not perfect but it makes good power, I\'d like to see it work with an OMP as that should be beneficial to side-seal life.
Personally I like the stock engine, it doesn\'t feel that fast but it thrives on massive revs and takes a lot of abuse and the chassis lets you carry speed and revs through corners so you can get round tracks nice and quickly, sure it doesn\'t last as long as some piston motors but if I wanted something that lasts forever I\'d have an old skool transit diesel engine (like my smoker).
Quote from: Will66;806071Turblown\'s kit\'s not perfect but it makes good power, I\'d like to see it work with an OMP as that should be beneficial to side-seal life.
In rews, decent premixing(2%) together with AI, keeps side seals in perfect condition. Any reason it should not work on Renesis engines? Im askin cause i have no knowledge of the renesis other than the basics on it. Im a Rx7/cosmo man. :)
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;806061They are on American dynos though. Don\'t they give higher figures?
There are so many types of dynos that you can´t even remotely do such generalization. Every dyno print out is usually posted with correction for temperature and pressure, but in case of turbo cars, it can skew everything, as turbo does compensate for lower pressure etc. Its just to many variables... Yes, dynojets are considered to give over-inflated numbers, but usually they are very consistent. This power was done on dyno dynamics machine, which is considered to read low. But it doesn´t matter, mass flow numbers are telling the story about power, not boost.
Quote from: jetpilot;806063The most i could see people getting in 8\'s was 300hp, limited by the new i think, centre porting, to meet emissions
Exhaust porting does limit the power potential, but no where in the way you see it and not at this power level;) Only reason why most people on Renesis aren´t getting much over 300 HP is small turbo of Greedy kit itself and also the fact, that they aren´t shooting for much more than that. Mazdamaniac and many others were producing over 400 HP years ago, they just didn´t bother to have argument with non believers:Typing
Quote from: jetpilot;806063so not sure where you get your 400 rwhp from as i couldnt find anything close to that!
Here you go. If you wan´t to point out, that its done with top mount setup, they are releasing low mount in near future which will be able to utilize turbo capable of such power.:3gears-rh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJyyaOL2dT4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJyyaOL2dT4)
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=200371&page=4 (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=200371&page=4)
Turblown did much more work lately, including Renesis with GTX4294R at 37 psi... granted, with E85. It was spinning wheels at 14 psi... He didn´t released power numbers yet, since as you can see, they´ve just started the tuning. Fuel flow indicated over 550 rwhp...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9OTL5uMXYc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9OTL5uMXYc)
Quote from: Miki;806079There are so many types of dynos that you can´t even remotely do such generalization. Every dyno print out is usually posted with correction for temperature and pressure, but in case of turbo cars, it can skew everything, as turbo does compensate for lower pressure etc. Its just to many variables... Yes, dynojets are considered to give over-inflated numbers, but usually they are very consistent. This power was done on dyno dynamics machine, which is considered to read low. But it doesn´t matter, mass flow numbers are telling the story about power, not boost.
Exhaust porting does limit the power potential, but no where in the way you see it and not at this power level;) Only reason why most people on Renesis aren´t getting much over 300 HP is small turbo of Greedy kit itself and also the fact, that they aren´t shooting for much more than that. Mazdamaniac and many others were producing over 400 HP years ago, they just didn´t bother to have argument with non believers:Typing
Here you go. If you wan´t to point out, that its done with top mount setup, they are releasing low mount in near future which will be able to utilize turbo capable of such power.:3gears-rh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJyyaOL2dT4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJyyaOL2dT4)
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=200371&page=4 (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=200371&page=4)
Turblown did much more work lately, including Renesis with GTX4294R at 37 psi... granted, with E85. It was spinning wheels at 14 psi... He didn´t released power numbers yet, since as you can see, they´ve just started the tuning. Fuel flow indicated over 550 rwhp...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9OTL5uMXYc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9OTL5uMXYc)
So why is everyone else complaining about the limiting factor of the side ports, but these guys have 450rwhp on a standard block out of a gt35r, which most running that turbo on fd\'s in this country are around 100hp less?
Sorry buddy, i have heard before how usa dynos over read compared to ours and think those 2 links are testament to that, if that Rx8 has 450rwhp and doesnt spin the wheels, its over reading on the dyno!
Quote from: jetpilot;806103So why is everyone else complaining about the limiting factor of the side ports
Because they are just talking from their a$$?:2Rolleyes They don´t have any credibility and knowledge to claim such thing. As any port, it does poses certain restriction -not limit. Higher brake mean effective pressure also means higher blowdown pressure. Again, I have to repeat it, its restriction, not limit. I´m sure you think even REW needs to be ported for huge power?:o Sorry that I´m harsh, but I see fundamental misunderstanding how things work...
Quote from: jetpilot;806103but these guys have 450rwhp on a standard block out of a gt35r, which most running that turbo on fd\'s in this country are around 100hp less?
GT35R has potential and produced over 500 HP on rotary platform. Renesis despite what you heard about exhaust ports flows very much and peak power happens at higher rpms than on REWs with stock intake. It all helps to produce very high power, even at low boost. And I dont have single reason to doubt these results. Stock car has peak airflow around 220-250 g/s. This one has over 450 g/s. Its 60 pounds per minute of air - easily over 450 HP. Dyno is just tuning tool, but these numbers are totally valid.
If you would try to be at least a bit open minded and readed through that thread, you would know that manifold design and large turbine are even more important on Renesis than on older engines. Almost every attempt to turbocharge Renesis was done with very small turbines. Once few individuals build manifolds to support bigger hotsides, power went up rapidly.
Exhaust port flow is based on pressure difference across it. Relieving pressure after the port is the key - proper hotside for power level. Guess how much power you would made with Greedy turbo on 13B-REW? I hope you see the point...
Quote from: oyvindjs;806076In rews, decent premixing(2%) together with AI, keeps side seals in perfect condition. Any reason it should not work on Renesis engines? Im askin cause i have no knowledge of the renesis other than the basics on it. Im a Rx7/cosmo man. :)
I think it\'s a disadvantage of the side exhaust ports, the side seals get hotter and the OMP spray cools them better.
I think Turblown are the only people who are looking at bigger turbos for the RX8. Given the sort of numbers that are coming from UK turbo cars, RE:Worx dyno\'d a Greddy Kitted car at 340 bhp at 8 psi on their small turbo kit back in 2008 and Tony\'s Supercharged car dyno\'d at 330 bhp at 8 psi on TDI\'s dyno after he\'d had his HKS FCON V mapped then I reckon there\'s something in these figures of around 400 rwhp on bigger blowers with more boost and fuel.
Anyway you should get one of the v16 quad turbo 60 litre diesel engines I heard running on Monday!!! The tickover sounded like a seriously heavy cammed V8!!! Best sounding diesel ever
Quote from: Will66;806213I think it\'s a disadvantage of the side exhaust ports, the side seals get hotter and the OMP spray cools them better.
AI will again lower the whole combustion temp and will help abit on the temps.
How bout 1/2oz per gallon premix + OMP redirected from crankcase-pump to external reservoir?
Clean, unpolluted oil + internal washing from AI = happy engine?
throwing out thoughts here.
V16 quad cam turbo 60 litre diesel? I think that\'s a bit too much of an ask even for tinker-27\'s mad skillz. I\'m guessing the engine weighs about 2 tonnes at least!
Screaming Diesel anyone?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvVoJw1LUmY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvVoJw1LUmY)
@oyvindjs not a bad idea but I think the problem is the turbo manifold goes too close to the OMP and the oil lines. I like the way you think though! :D
Not really, could just stick bits of car on the engine and let the turbos move the whole with the amount of air they are sucking!!
Quote from: Will66;806226@oyvindjs not a bad idea but I think the problem is the turbo manifold goes too close to the OMP and the oil lines. I like the way you think though! :D
External heat issues are of a less concern ;)
Ceramically treated exhaust housing and manifold, and a Mica-treated heatshield between intake and exhaust + turbo, with room for airflow(no contact). Works like a charm.
That would work! Not cheap though. The time may come when I want a bit more pace, but it\'s not any time soon, and I keep an eye on the developments just in case!
Well, i wouldnt try to get max power. I think that torque and quick response is more important... just my two cents... ;)
Diesel RX would be awesome :D
Is a diesel rotary not physically possible?
Quote from: B.Martin;806259Is a diesel rotary not physically possible?
It is completely possible. There is tank that was built with a rotary engine where the rotors were about 2ft tall. And it was designed to run on anything they could find that would burn.
I wonder why Mazda hasn\'t produced cheaper to run versions of the rx8, with turo diesel renesis engines. I bet diesel renesis could spool some rather large turbos and just evause it\'s diesel they\'d be more economic, in theory. Maybe the Mazda rotary engine isn\'t compatable with diesel in its current design?
It\'s igniting the diesel which is the problem as high compression is needed and diesel is ignited off the heat inside the engine and not actually a spark/glow plug lik petrol engine. As we know rotaries are hit to start with on petrol. But if the enine was made biggest with more water cooling then it would be good. And I would imagine that a diesel rotary would still rev as high as they do.
I think they would be more efficient as less diesel would be required to push the rotors around as it is a slower longer burn than petrol.
Rolls Royce built a diesel rotary and as Grant said, there was a rotary designed to run on just about anything they could find. That would be environmentally friendly and cool way of getting about.
I think current emissions laws would prohibit it though, rotaries aren\'t famed for complete combustion so you\'d get a lot of black smoke out of the back which upsets green people, you\'d need a much higher compression ratio since diesels are generally at least 14:1 and higher.
Slowly this Eco freindly bandwagon is destroying the motoring enthusiast.
It is not even that friendly.
Mazda are just releasing the lowest compression ratio diesel yet and that is 14-1.
From what I have learnt recently is that rotaries with petrol don\'t increase HP if the compression ratio is increasing. Something to do with pumping losses and the bowl in the rotor not being big enough.
So maybe a 10-1 rotary diesel would work and give huge torque andHP. And seen as diesel didn\'t detonate the Apex seals would be fine
Quote from: Miki;806203Because they are just talking from their a$$?:2Rolleyes They dont\'t have any credibility
I´m sure you think even REW needs to be ported for huge power?
GT35R has potential and produced over 500 HP on rotary platform.
If you would try to be at least a bit open minded and readed through that thread
I am very open minded buddy, i wanted to buy one and would still like one, however, what your basically saying is.......
Everyone is wrong, tuners, engine builders, owners who have spent huge sums trying to get decent power! And, we (here and in the usa, oz etc) are missing a trick when it comes to porting etc and these guys are the only people that have been able to do it!
There are lots of people over here running gt35r\'s with no where near 500hp, on ported and standard!
Sorry buddy, its not that easy, however open minded i am :WaveBye
I don\'t think a diesel with 10:1 compression ration would work, I\'m not 100% but I don\'t think it would generate sufficient heat to ignite the mixture through compression
@jetpilot
I think MSP tuning is in its infancy still and people are only just starting to release its potential.
Quote from: Will66;806296I think MSP tuning?
Link please sir! :)
MSP = Multi-Side Port. It\'s the engine code for the Renesis.
Quote from: Will66;806339MSP = Multi-Side Port. It\'s the engine code for the Renesis.
Fair one! Still, i think the basis that we do not need porting to hit 400rwhp is a little optimistic. either renesis engine or 13b :)
I don\'t know, provided the inlet tract and exhaust isn\'t restricting it then jam enough air and fuel in and it should work.
Turblown\'s dyno figures were done on a Australian Dynapack not a US dynojet just like Surrey Rolling Road and Reworxs dynapack dyno
SRR is a Dyno dynamics Dyno , or it was ?
Very excited about this project! And as Tinker27 says, I want a useable but fun car for the road.
p.s. The RX8 really stands out in a crowd and I always wanted one just for the looks!!! (typical girl statement!)
Quote from: jetpilot;806290And, we (here and in the usa, oz etc) are missing a trick when it comes to porting etc and these guys are the only people that have been able to do it!
Again, its not in the porting. And no, they aren´t only people nor first to do it.
Turbocharger itself and manifold design is where lies all power. What you guys are missing is understanding of how flow works in boosted engine - port is never limit. Those who tell otherwise just can´t admit, that they don´t understand these principles...
Quote from: jetpilot;806290There are lots of people over here running gt35r\'s with no where near 500hp, on ported and standard!
Guy in the US, stock block 13B-REW, zero porting, GT35R 1.06 A/R, 21 psi boost, 500 HP@wheels, 131 MPH over 1/4, full weight FD. http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=746924 (http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=746924)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riokysoniDE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riokysoniDE)
What more you want?:2Rolleyes
Quote from: jetpilot;806343Fair one! Still, i think the basis that we do not need porting to hit 400rwhp is a little optimistic. either renesis engine or 13b :)
This isn´t theory, its fact. Same guy as in above link gone for large BW S475 turbo, again, stock port engine, 700 HP@wheels at 32 psi, 143+ MPH trap speeds. You still don´t understand that porting is last thing needed in boosted engine - Ports can be optimized for volumetric flow, well, turbo doesn´t increase volume, but density - mass flow. Porting is not needed, quote any power level you want;)
Quote from: BlitzBoy;806346Turblown\'s dyno figures were done on a Australian Dynapack not a US dynojet just like Surrey Rolling Road and Reworxs dynapack dyno
+1
Dynapack and dyno dynamics.
I don´t understand all that skepticism. Maybe some people can´t think outside of "13B port it huge" box:Grrr
Quote from: BlitzBoy;806346Turblown\'s dyno figures were done on a Australian Dynapack not a US dynojet just like Surrey Rolling Road and Reworxs dynapack dyno
It would seem fact but am still struggling massively to come to terms that they are getting 400 rwhp off a standard block!!
Quote from: Miki;806403Again, its not in the porting. And no, they aren´t only people nor first to do it. Turbocharger itself and manifold design is where lies all power. What you guys are missing is understanding of how flow works in boosted engine - port is never limit. Those who tell otherwise just can´t admit, that they don´t understand these principles...
Guy in the US, stock block 13B-REW, zero porting, GT35R 1.06 A/R, 21 psi boost, 500 HP@wheels, 131 MPH over 1/4, full weight FD. http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=746924 (http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=746924)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riokysoniDE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riokysoniDE)
What more you want?:2Rolleyes
This isn´t theory, its fact. Same guy as in above link gone for large BW S475 turbo, again, stock port engine, 700 HP@wheels at 32 psi, 143+ MPH trap speeds. You still don´t understand that porting is last thing needed in boosted engine - Ports can be optimized for volumetric flow, well, turbo doesn´t increase volume, but density - mass flow. Porting is not needed, quote any power level you want;)
+1
Dynapack and dyno dynamics.
I don´t understand all that skepticism. Maybe some people can´t think outside of "13B port it huge" box:Grrr
Listen, i will take your condescending tone lightly as i presume English is a 2nd language!
I am not talking from my point of view or knowledge, i have little!
I am talking from the experience of many tuners worldwide, probably many who know far more than you who and have highly reputable business\'s, why is everyone else struggling to reach these figures with the same turbos, but these guys have done it off a standard block!
Sorry buddy, but this info just undermines what we all presume to be correct on here!
My tone is entirely appropriate. I gave you valid scientific information how it works and why others failed. I also gave you performance proof of what you consider not possible without porting etc. And just because you can´t understand discussed subject, you refused it with reference to "experience of higly reputable business". Well, such business is not reputable in my eyes.
Enjoy living in the world you presume to be correct, just because it folows some rules what you believe is possible and what not. You will always be just follower. No wonder power lacks over here with such attitude for new things and facts...
Increased boost in to a standard block will give high HP numbers but with great inlet temps. If you port an engine then the same HP can be attained with less boost who equals less heat. It\'s a fact.
A standard port will be beaten at HP for the same boost level by a pored block.
Running 1.5 bar through a gt35 would probably get the 500 HP but most people here in the uk only run 1 bar don\'t they.
The first post in the link to the rx7 club says it is street ported. Gt35 on a T3. So it\'s not a standard port :(
Quote from: Miki;806408My tone is entirely appropriate. I gave you valid scientific information how it works and why others failed. I also gave you performance proof of what you consider not possible without porting etc. And just because you can´t understand discussed subject, you refused it with reference to "experience of higly reputable business". Well, such business is not reputable in my eyes.
Enjoy living in the world you presume to be correct, just because it folows some rules what you believe is possible and what not. You will always be just follower. No wonder power lacks over here with such attitude for new things and facts...
Your tone is not appropriate, unless you are speaking from experience rather than just what you have seen on the net!
I put my faith in the engine builders and tuners of this country, not someone who just comes up with a link without any experience, unless of course you have one of these kits, do you?
Your right, i cant understand discussed subject, i am sure most on here cant, as its completely alien to us, there is probably a handful of 500+ hp cars in this country (i am one of them), let alone ones with 500 rwhp! And those owners have spent a huge sum of money to get there! Not just bought a bolt on kit!
When you have one of these kits installed on your car with 500rwhp, please come and tell me and all the specialists we are doing it wrong or even better, come here yourself, set up a business and make a fortune!
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;806410Increased boost in to a standard block will give high HP numbers but with great inlet temps. If you port an engine then the same HP can be attained with less boost who equals less heat. It\'s a fact.
True. But once you go for really serious power, it doesn´t matter if your engine is stock, street, bridge etc. Boost will have to be high and temps will have to be controlled. Also intercooler is more efficient with higher deltaT;)
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;806410A standard port will be beaten at HP for the same boost level by a ported block.
True. But ported motor will have absolutely no midrange and in any real world situation, stock port will be faster, despite lack of peak power.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;806410Running 1.5 bar through a gt35 would probably get the 500 HP but most people here in the uk only run 1 bar don\'t they.
Their choice:D
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;806412The first post in the link to the rx7 club says it is street ported. Gt35 on a T3. So it\'s not a standard port :(
Yes, I admit that:o But at this power level, since turbo is maxxed out, horsepower difference would be nill between any porting. I´m pretty sure Enzo somewhere mentioned that he found 12 HP difference between stockport and streetport at same boost (around 20 psi) on this very combination. So what kind of magnitude is it? 20 psi with street, maybe 22 with stock?
I know that you are following Peter´s work. He also uses stock 13B-REW. And you know what kind of power and boost he runs:chat
Please stop fighting and talk about my new car!!
Or take your fight to a new thread. Ta much. :yes
Yes I do follow his work. WI just fascinates me!! I cant wait to run WI on my car. I noticed in that thread also that when they increased the boost by 5 psi I think they only gained 11hp so took it back to the lower setting.
I think an ice bath charge cooler would be even better for efficient cooling for max HP. The air density would be insane!! Spool the turbo quicker too. Stick some WI in there and you would have an insane amount of peak HP
Quote from: Wendle;806426Please stop fighting and talk about my new car!!
Or take your fight to a new thread. Ta much. :yes
We are not fighting, im just curious as to where this guy has gained all his wealth of tuning knowledge and experience on rotaries as we are all missing a trick it would seem!
Please tell us Miki!
Quote from: Wendle;806426Please stop fighting and talk about my new car!!
Or take your fight to a new thread. Ta much. :yes
Oops sorry. I think your car will be great. You get the looks of the 8 that you say and you won\'t have that feeling of having to do a rebuild at some point. And you will get better mpg.
Are you going to mod the engine performance or leave it standard?
Quote from: Wendle;806426Please stop fighting and talk about my new car!!
Or take your fight to a new thread. Ta much. :yes
ooooooowwhhh - I was just going to join in :Giggle
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;806430Oops sorry. I think your car will be great. You get the looks of the 8 that you say and you won\'t have that feeling of having to do a rebuild at some point. And you will get better mpg.
Are you going to mod the engine performance or leave it standard?
Not sure yet! Just want to have a drive of the conversion and then see what happens! :driving
Quote from: stylus350;806431ooooooowwhhh - I was just going to join in :Giggle
Meannie! :Giggle
Quote from: Wendle;806447Not sure yet! Just want to have a drive of the conversion and then see what happens! :driving
Are you going to be just using the car for steady driving or are you a b road slayer and take it on track?
This one will be fairly std , chipped and front mount intercooler , maybe Decat, I am going to build one for myself and hopefully using the 2.0l motor and a bigger turbo , should be 400-440bhp , which should be fun !!
What are you going to do with the 7? I would more than happily run around in it for you whilst you had the 8??
That\'s going no where !! I\'m just fitting some 315,30 ,18 rears and feed rear arches , new rear drive shafts and run mote boost !!!!
Damn was worth a try :D are you rolling the arches too?
Quote from: tinker-27;806454This one will be fairly std , chipped and front mount intercooler , maybe Decat, I am going to build one for myself and hopefully using the 2.0l motor and a bigger turbo , should be 400-440bhp , which should be fun !!
I\'ve got a front mount you might be able to use.
Despite the fact that Rice-Racing\'s posts were an angry mess and he came across as a tool he did seem to echo what you see in some of the higher performance tuning in piston engines that I\'ve read about. They seemed to find that relatively mild cam shafts worked better with turbo engines as opposed to higher lifter, longer duration jobbies that you\'d see on tuned n/a motors. Porting an N/A engine is the only way to make power but on a turbo it\'s about getting as much air into the motor as possible. The 13B-MSP has plenty of port area and if you can get good gas flow it should make good power.
Quote from: Will66;806493Despite the fact that Rice-Racing\'s posts were an angry mess and he came across as a tool he did seem to echo what you see in some of the higher performance tuning in piston engines that I\'ve read about. They seemed to find that relatively mild cam shafts worked better with turbo engines as opposed to higher lifter, longer duration jobbies that you\'d see on tuned n/a motors. Porting an N/A engine is the only way to make power but on a turbo it\'s about getting as much air into the motor as possible. The 13B-MSP has plenty of port area and if you can get good gas flow it should make good power.
^^
This
air follow the same laws afaik as for ex. water flowing down a stream and hitting a point, for ex a concrete ditch designed to lead away the water. The concrete ditch is narrower than the river, but it goes from river width, and gradually narrows down. The water will pick up speed through that point. With more speed comes more energy, and with more energy comes more wasted energy in the form of temperatures.
when it comes to cams, VE(volumetric efficiency) is just plain easier to accheive with forced induction. Race spec N/A cams with high lift and duration is to maximise VE on an N/A engine, but sacrificing drivability and powerband-level. N/A race engines are mainly set to work at high revs, so they dont want low-power grunt anyways.
Going with highlift aggressive cams will just be a :censored::censored::censored::censored:ty thing when you have a small maxpowerband the cams work perfectly on, and a turbo that gives over a wider range.
Here is a side note. Ever wondered whypretty much EVERY race engine out there go for Horsepower and not Torque?
Hp is what makes the car go faster.
Torque is just power available to spin loose the wheels.
Its not measurable in a river, but in an intake, yes.
As long as the pressure from the water above the narrow point is the same(a turbo) the water(air) will pick up speed through the narrow point, but with increased temperature as a biproduct.
This effect can be seen by applying a nozzle to a water hose wich narrows the exit hole, or with an air hose you put a nozzle on.
So if you\'re running stock ports and boost then you need a beefier intercooler or WI. Therefore porting a block allows you to run power easier but you can get the same from a non-ported block with more elaborate cooling.
The characteristics of long duration and high overlap for atmo cams are unwelcome in the turbo system. The street turbo, which is generally small, operates on exhaust manifold pressure somewhat higher than intake boost pressure. This situation, when presented with long-duration, high-overlap cams, creates a huge amount of reversion. Thus the "turbo cam" tends to become a low duration, very limited overlap camshaft..
Will66, Auxilliary injection is the holy grail of Rotary tuning in my eyes.
I can give you a ton of interresting articles on this subject if you want. :)
MAzda used gasoline to cool the insane exhaust temps rotaries produce. thats why they use more fuel. The rotary is 30% more inefficient than a comparable piston engine, cause so much goes up in heat.
Fuel has a cooling effiency of 750 (some unit i cant remember now).
Water has 4500
meth has over 7000.
Cause you cant ask the regular driver to remember to fill a water tank often, they opted for gasoline to help cool the combustion. This resulted in carbonisation, wich in time locks up apexes and causes compression drops... Water injection steamcleans engine, and provides SICK internal combustion cooling capabilities. Also, adding water to a tuned program is hazard free, as water doesnt affect tuning as it has no fuel in it. Meth, you need to tune for. As i said, i have lots of info on this :)
Can you share the auxiliary injection articles with me please?
pm sent ;)
If i remember right, Mr.Wankel used diesel in his first prototypes...
And diesel rotary engine is possible. I do understand why they wont do more experiments on that. Cause its basically old technology and there is no point to push more money on it...
Back to topic... Its awesome project. Waiting to see her finissed :)
Quote from: oyvindjs;806510Will66, Auxilliary injection is the holy grail of Rotary tuning in my eyes.
I can give you a ton of interresting articles on this subject if you want. :)
MAzda used gasoline to cool the insane exhaust temps rotaries produce. thats why they use more fuel. The rotary is 30% more inefficient than a comparable piston engine, cause so much goes up in heat.
Fuel has a cooling effiency of 750 (some unit i cant remember now).
Water has 4500
meth has over 7000.
Cause you cant ask the regular driver to remember to fill a water tank often, they opted for gasoline to help cool the combustion. This resulted in carbonisation, wich in time locks up apexes and causes compression drops... Water injection steamcleans engine, and provides SICK internal combustion cooling capabilities. Also, adding water to a tuned program is hazard free, as water doesnt affect tuning as it has no fuel in it. Meth, you need to tune for. As i said, i have lots of info on this :)
found the numbers, got em mixed up:
Heat (BTUs) removed per gallon
Gasoline....................952
Ethanol....................2398
Methanol..................3136
Water.......................8087
article worth reading:
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=888852
Please post some pics!!
I\'d be interested in the AI articles too!
Quote from: Will66;806567I\'d be interested in the AI articles too!
u got PM ;)
Quote from: jetpilot;806405Listen, i will take your condescending tone lightly as i presume English is a 2nd language!
I am not talking from my point of view or knowledge, i have little!
I am talking from the experience of many tuners worldwide, probably many who know far more than you who and have highly reputable business\'s, why is everyone else struggling to reach these figures with the same turbos, but these guys have done it off a standard block!
Sorry buddy, but this info just undermines what we all presume to be correct on here!
That\'s a lot of arguing based on an arseumption
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;806452Are you going to be just using the car for steady driving or are you a b road slayer and take it on track?
Let\'s see! Also have 2 wheels for track days so I might be torn...
Quote from: hayden;806625arseumption
Can I please borrow this typo? I think it will come in handy LOL
I don\'t think that was a typo :Giggle
Quote from: Wendle;806771Can I please borrow this typo? I think it will come in handy LOL
If it was a typo :D
Sorry Jet it was funny :p
Quote from: hayden;806625That\'s a lot of arguing based on an arseumption
Not really, its based on what just about every owner of a Rx7 faces when they go to get their cars tuned by our specialists, but hey, what do they know it would seem!
I\'m getting interested in this AI business, it does seem to make sense!
Quote from: Will66;806843I\'m getting interested in this AI business, it does seem to make sense!
Hehe., howard coleman has convinced you? That man is a genious! ;-)
It makes a lot of sense. I had to dig out an engineering text book that I haven\'t looked at since I dropped out of uni and ran away and join the Navy but it makes sense. However it has me already planning my route to financial ruin. Mounting the water tank in the boot to maintain weight distribution, 14 psi of boost, huge injectors and see where I go. Maybe in several years time!
You can use WI on NA motors too, but the benefits are not the same. Increased mpg and decarbonised engine internals. But with turbos the benefits are huge and even more so when ore turbo WI.
I think it is a bit too keen on N/A but if and when I go for an F/I Rotary, it will be W/I and probably on stock ports.