This is a big deal for me at the moment due to my work and i\'m still really undecided about what i\'m going to do.
I\'m not after advice on what i should do, whatever that maybe in the end is my desision but i would like to hear what you guys know about the situation and what your thoughts are.
Adam
Messing with pensions is an emotive issue, the Government have their eye on mine in 2015. I can\'t go on strike though and it rather hacks me off really. Why should my future be compromised because financiers are too myopic to realise that lending money to people who can\'t afford to pay it back is a bad idea and then expect the government to bail them out when inevitably they can\'t pay the money back? The government expects a lot of the people it employs public servants in whatever manner, far more than is expected of people in the private sector on comparable salaries, I think we understand that we need to make savings but I think public sector pensions are an area that should be off limits to cuts.
It would seem no one is safe from current cuts and the money troubles we are in through no fault of our own, we are all in the same boat, pretty much!
However, im not sure i like the concept of striking as there are plenty of employed people who are getting shafted and they just have to put up with it or not have their job!
Being held to ransom is imho, not the way to do it! And if the figures that are being bounded about, about its cost, even anywhere close, is not going to help anyone in the country!
leave the eu, stop handing out all our money to other countries who dont want to help themselves, stop spending millions giving methadone to junkies, stop spending millions of pounds in meetings to work out how to save millions, put proceeds of crime back back into local councils to help sove money issuses, i could go on but yea you get my general idea. my sis, my g/friend, brother and his wife all are affected from this cause of there jobs so have heard all about it so know what you are talking about
i think that if you go on strike, it should be your decision and feel that what your doing will help your personal situation.
Im a technician at our local college, and im in a trade union which is all going out on strike wednesday..... but i have decided not too.
The reason being is that the government keep putting age of retirement up each year cause i reckon they havent got peoples pension money available, cause they keep spending it! to say people pay into a pension, as i do, and they freely spend it. not right.
But, im not striking cause i figured ive got over 40 years left to work and i doubt ill ever be able to retire with the way things are going, so for that reason im out.
plus, i wont get paid if i go on strike, so this is what i told my gaffa...
"im not going on strike because i wont get paid for sitting at home, doing nothing. id sooner come to work where all teachers are out. so students sent home meaning i wont have to do anything at work! so id sooner go to work, sit around and do nothing and get paid!"
F*ckin smart! :D
completley up to the person and what you believe in. if there was going to be massive job losses on my level, then yes id strike, but one day is pointless. Indefinate industrial action is the way to get things done
Quote from: wolfie1;800334leave the eu, stop handing out all our money to other countries who dont want to help themselves, stop spending millions giving methadone to junkies, stop spending millions of pounds in meetings to work out how to save millions, put proceeds of crime back back into local councils to help sove money issuses, i could go on but yea you get my general idea. my sis, my g/friend, brother and his wife all are affected from this cause of there jobs so have heard all about it so know what you are talking about
There seems to be so many levels on how this country "could" save money and pretty much agree with your thoughts above!
Whether read in a paper or not, did i not hear we hand out roughly 50 million to the EU every week?
How many billions has it cost us to be at war, Iraq, Afghanistan recently our intervention in Syria over the last 10 years+?
How much is it costing us to bail out Greece, Ireland and next probably Spain, Portugal and Italy?
How many billions are we paying to immigrants to live here?
How many billions have we sent out in Aid relieve, Haitti, Africa etc?
Whilst there may be many arguments to the pros and cons of some of the money we have spent above, i plain and simple dont get why we do not sort ourselves (this country) out first and then and only then, start worrying about other such things mentioned above.
If we had the debts levels as a government do now, but all that money had been spent on getting this country straight and working, im not sure many would complain, but what % of our debt has benefited us as a country!
I saw a documentary the other week about our involvement in the EU, or more so, the EU itself! By all accounts economists flatly warned that a one currency made of many states (like USA) would not work (again see USA, some states thriving some on their knees)) and we are seeing the evidence now, however it was ignored! I was also gobsmacked to know Britain is still owed huge sums of money from bailing out US states from years gone by!!
Why is it so difficult to follow the expression, look after the pennies and pounds will look after themselves and look after your own home before any other!
Quote from: jord13b;800368if there was going to be massive job losses on my level, then yes id strike, but one day is pointless. Indefinate industrial action is the way to get things done
When you went into public sector work, were you guaranteed a job for life?
Quote from: jetpilot;800374When you went into public sector work, were you guaranteed a job for life?
hell no!!! there going through every public sector cutting anything that makes the firm run.... i.e people on the shop floor earning peanuts, rather than manager level. where they work the same hours, sat pushing pens all day for 4 times what we earn!
whole systems corrupt!
Your not wrong there, but thats business, generally the more you earn the less you have to do!
But i dont get it, if they were threatening masses job losses, why would you strike? As you say, you werent guaranteed for a job life?
Private sector workers are being laid off left, right and centre, they dont have the option to strike, they just have to grin and bear it, but because a lot of public sector jobs affect the day to day operations of this country, the unions throw their toys out the pram and hold the country to ransom, which i think is wrong.
Quote from: jetpilot;800387Your not wrong there, but thats business, generally the more you earn the less you have to do!
But i dont get it, if they were threatening masses job losses, why would you strike? As you say, you werent guaranteed for a job life?
Private sector workers are being laid off left, right and centre, they dont have the option to strike, they just have to grin and bear it, but because a lot of public sector jobs affect the day to day operations of this country, the unions throw their toys out the pram and hold the country to ransom, which i think is wrong.
yeh i totally agree. private sector workers are very unfortunate in that manner, and your right, unions get mardy about everything! lol but its nice to have that back up. You aren\'t very safe even as a union member still... if managers want you out, theyll find a way to get you out!
id strike for job losses because its something i feel would need backing up there and then, unlike pensions, for me, in 40 odd years time.
Plus im with a really good union, and they cant sack me for striking, but wont pay me.... but the union will cover all your costs/bills while on strike, so no real loss in that respect.
my job at my last college was in threat 3 times in space of 2 years... i had to re-apply for my job and be interviewed 3 times.... they made me resign 4 contracts, cutting my pay each time, but my union got involved and guns went blazing, which im thankful for. eventually i was lucky enough to get a job at my new college, as my job role is very rare.
they tried all they could to cut down technical staff, but they dont understand how much work we actually do untill were gone, hence i was happy to leave them dangling in the :censored::censored::censored::censored:! lol
Quote from: jord13b;800388Plus im with a really good union, and they cant sack me for striking, but wont pay me.... but the union will cover all your costs/bills while on strike, so no real loss in that respect./QUOTE]
As i am completely naive to unions etc, where do they get the money to cover such bills?
Quote from: jetpilot;800389Quote from: jord13b;800388Plus im with a really good union, and they cant sack me for striking, but wont pay me.... but the union will cover all your costs/bills while on strike, so no real loss in that respect./QUOTE]
As i am completely naive to unions etc, where do they get the money to cover such bills?
id imagine from the government! haha!
but you pay your fees, which is a percentage of your wage, i pay about £14 a month
Again emotive issue... nationwide strikes seem to achive very little overall - but do have a very negative impact on how the rest of the world views your country... striking when times are fair to good may work.. striking when times are tough only seems to increase the hurt.
I guess the question is this: What does a strike actually get you? Right now I can\'t see a lot of pluses to the strike movements.
I can only speak from an ambulance person\'s perspective but I, personally, will be striking on Wednesday.
Currently my pension will be worth about £7000 per annum and I will be entitled to collect it from the age of 65. I can only imagine how much that\'ll actually buy me by the year 2042 :o
With the proposed changes I will be paying almost £100 more a month in pension contributions over what I already pay now. On top of that I will not be able to claim this pension until I am 68 and it will be worth only £6000 per annum.
I don\'t really envisage being able to live off £6000 a year in the year 2045. I don\'t really see how I am going to swallow another £1200 annual pay cut having already lost £1200 in the meal break deal (which we did not take industrial action on), or the £800 cut enforced on us with the unsocial hours cut.
None of these issues have reached the press and we are working more and more shifts, often not getting our half hour "lunch" break until 8 or 9 hours into a 12 hour shift...sometimes not getting it at all.
For myself, I found deciding whether to strike or not a difficult decision too. People don\'t work on the ambulances for the great salary....there isn\'t one...they mostly do it because they care and want to make the worst day of someone\'s life (let\'s face it, u don\'t have an ambulance out to u on a good day...the only happy job we have is child birth...as long as it all goes to plan!) a little bit easier and more bearable. However, to loose £3k from my salary in 2 years and to leave my with a very uncertain retirement, where they expect me still to be able to carry 15stone patients down the stairs at 67, I reached the decision that enough was enough. Even if nothing changes I have said "I disagree with this".
Just my pounds worth! ;)
^^ nail right on the head!
Quote from: Jojo;800450For myself, I found deciding whether to strike or not a difficult decision too. People don\'t work on the ambulances for the great salary....there isn\'t one...they mostly do it because they care and want to make the worst day of someone\'s life (let\'s face it, u don\'t have an ambulance out to u on a good day...the only happy job we have is child birth...as long as it all goes to plan!) a little bit easier and more bearable. However, to loose £3k from my salary in 2 years and to leave my with a very uncertain retirement, where they expect me still to be able to carry 15stone patients down the stairs at 67, I reached the decision that enough was enough. Even if nothing changes I have said "I disagree with this".
I have the utmost respect for the ambulance service after a bike accident in 98, if they hadnt got to me so quickly etc i would have most likely lost my foot at the worst or at the very least had to have it fused had they not been so so excellent with their response! So my hat is off to you Sir. I have a good friend who recently left the paramedics, pretty much due to the reasons outlined above and felt he had no more to offer, increased politics in the service also didnt help apparently!
However, times are hard, we are all suffering, why should the public sector workforce have any more rights that private sector?
Quote from: Jojo;800450I don\'t really envisage being able to live off £6000 a year in the year 2045. I don\'t really see how I am going to swallow another £1200 annual pay cut having already lost £1200 in the meal break deal (which we did not take industrial action on), or the £800 cut enforced on us with the unsocial hours cut.
On the pension - if you take away your mortgage plus other costs that will be gone when you retire and any work related costs (transport, etc) could you survive on 6k now? Well, you 6k and your wife\'s pension plus both of your state pensions?
It won\'t be 6k in 2045 because it\'s inflation-linked.
My only issue with pub sec pensions is the disparity between them and private sec pensions and the requirement for most of the schemes to be subsidised from taxation to pay out to retired members. If they were self-funding from contributions and the fund pot then the terms can be a generous as anything.
The big disparity is not really the top paid people but comparing like-for-like at the low salary end where the provision in private sector is so small you\'d be looking at much less pension a year paying in what you\'re being asked to now.
Latest news is they are rethinking the strike action!
Quote from: iaint;800460On the pension - if you take away your mortgage plus other costs that will be gone when you retire and any work related costs (transport, etc) could you survive on 6k now? Well, you 6k and your wife\'s pension plus both of your state pensions?
No wife...I\'m a girl...and a girl that likes boys at that!! ;)
Quote from: iaint;800460It won\'t be 6k in 2045 because it\'s inflation-linked.
Well that doesn\'t bode well if we\'re in another recession by then!! :o
Quote from: iaint;800460My only issue with pub sec pensions is the disparity between them and private sec pensions and the requirement for most of the schemes to be subsidised from taxation to pay out to retired members. If they were self-funding from contributions and the fund pot then the terms can be a generous as anything.
The big disparity is not really the top paid people but comparing like-for-like at the low salary end where the provision in private sector is so small you\'d be looking at much less pension a year paying in what you\'re being asked to now.
True, if I worked in the private sector I would indeed have a smaller pension. I don\'t however, I made the choice to go into the public sector and I was promised this pension scheme as a sweetner to the low salary, unsocial hours and general hazards of long term injury that come with doing the job I do. Now they are changing those terms.
I don\'t think the system is fair at all....in fact I personally believe the people who have got the country into this mess should be the ones taking the hit.....if the bankers wish to put their millions of pounds bonuses into a pension fund for the public sector instead and lessen the contributions made by the tax payer (that\'s me as well...still pay tax and NI contributions myself obviously) to it that\'d be fine by me!!
**ducks and runs for cover** ;)
This may all now be moot though from what Mr Pilot just said...oh and glad the crew u had were good! :)
Quote from: Jojo;800477True, if I worked in the private sector I would indeed have a smaller pension. I don\'t however, I made the choice to go into the public sector and I was promised this pension scheme as a sweetner to the low salary, unsocial hours and general hazards of long term injury that come with doing the job I do. Now they are changing those terms.
This may all now be moot though from what Mr Pilot just said...oh and glad the crew u had were good! :)
Its a job i could never do, so cant praise the paramedics enough!
To play devils advocate though, contracts, pensions, wages, hours, salaries are frequently re-worked in the private sector, when they are, you have the choice, hunt/leave for another job or grin and bear it!
My confusion with the public sector is, it seems like a big % feel they are untouchable from what is currently a massively messed up financial situation, why should it be any different for them/you?
Whilst i dont necessarily agree with such stringent cuts i personally dont feel we could keep borrowing money under the labour gov or we end up lke Greece/Ireland etc
From my small understanding of economics, banking is the countries largest industry, so we need them. Im not sure the banks can be blamed for everything, they are all governed and by all accounts due to the restructure under labour, of the bank of englands ability to control and take action, it was all too late to turn back the tide, even though financiers saw this coming!
Look at Northern Rock, probably the first, bailed out by the gov and now we have just sold part of it to Virgin for 400 million i think, but the tax payer still owns the debt, how does that work?
This is all fair comment. I can accept we have to suffer along with everyone else. The thing is we already have!
The problem is there is no money left to pay Public Sector pensions. It\'s a Ponzi scheme. Your contributions pay for your parents pension, and y/our children pay for yours. Of course this works in the good times, but we are heading into a 20 year recession/depression, and there won\'t be enough contributors to keep the Ponzi going. Traditionally PS workers were paid a lower wage on the promise of a decent final salary pension. In the last decade PS wages are the same or higher than the Private sector, this is unsustainable. The country needs huge private sector growth to afford the payments, not to mention our massive defecit that continues to grow. We need a miracle. If a PS worker contributes 4% of their salary towards their pension, a private sector worker has to put in 40% to receive the same. Even the renegotiated terms of this deal is unaffordable. It\'s much worse than most people realise.
Quote from: Jojo;800477No wife...I\'m a girl...and a girl that likes boys at that!! ;)
:o I\'d have used the term \'significant other\' but I have to beat myself afterwards.
Quote from: Jojo;800477Well that doesn\'t bode well if we\'re in another recession by then!! :o
Indeed - unless it\'s so bad we have huge negative inflation and everything falls in price.
Quote from: Jojo;800477True, if I worked in the private sector I would indeed have a smaller pension. I don\'t however, I made the choice to go into the public sector and I was promised this pension scheme as a sweetner to the low salary, unsocial hours and general hazards of long term injury that come with doing the job I do. Now they are changing those terms.
Terms always change. When it happens to people in the private sector you take it on the chin or go work elsewhere. You make a fair point though and striking is one of the options open to you that most private sector workers don;t have.
Quote from: Jojo;800477I don\'t think the system is fair at all....in fact I personally believe the people who have got the country into this mess should be the ones taking the hit.....if the bankers wish to put their millions of pounds bonuses into a pension fund for the public sector instead and lessen the contributions made by the tax payer (that\'s me as well...still pay tax and NI contributions myself obviously) to it that\'d be fine by me!!
I know our political classes like us to think this and thus do what we do very well in this country - vent our jealousy on those better off - the reality of our current problems are separate from the banking crisis.
Yes the banking crisis (which is not about greed so much as lending to people who couldn\'t afford it) has given the world economy a hefty nudge but the real issue is one of Sovereign Debt. UK Plc owes a lot of money. So much in fact that the interest alone is crippling.
My view is that the previous government, who had a period of unprecedented economic growth, should not have been splashing the cash around and increasing our debt. They should have paid it off instead of carrying on like the winter would never come.
None of the current cuts would have been needed if we hadn\'t had 10 years of growing government and profligate spending.
The same goes for many many households. Me and my wife have had a good last 10 years. During that time we got rid of all debts apart from our mortgage and that we overpaid whenever we could. Now we\'re pretty much immune to economic turmoil and aren\'t needing to tighten our belts even though we\'ve both just left our jobs to move to a different part of the country.
We could have spent all our money, re-mortgaged to put a new car on the drive and taken out more credit cards. If we had we\'d have been deserving of the pain.
Yet we blame the bankers not the politicians who maxed out the countries credit cards... We\'re lucky the international markets still see us as a safe bet and have cheap national borrowing - we\'d be making Greece look like pocket-change if our borrowing rates were as high as theirs.
Excuse the rant - the whole \'blame the bankers\' thing really gets my goat as it\'s only part of a much deeper issue.
^+1
Except I would argue the banking crisis is very much to do with greed. Bankers make profit from debt; it\'s in their interest for all of us to be in debt and they were only too happy to loan huge sums on self certified mortgages. The politicians loved the house price inflation on their second homes, the public loved withdrawing the equity from their ever rising house prices and the bankers loved the free tax payer money that came their way when they became too big to fail. Sadly since 2008, nothing has been done to fix this and we will crash much harder the second time around.
going back to an earlier post in this thread, my missus is basically a team leader for a home furnishings store (like the range, but not), she earns about 20% more than her manager who has to do more hours.
Quote from: JohnnyP;800587^+1
Except I would argue the banking crisis is very much to do with greed. Bankers make profit from debt; it\'s in their interest for all of us to be in debt and they were only too happy to loan huge sums on self certified mortgages. The politicians loved the house price inflation on their second homes, the public loved withdrawing the equity from their ever rising house prices and the bankers loved the free tax payer money that came their way when they became too big to fail. Sadly since 2008, nothing has been done to fix this and we will crash much harder the second time around.
Im not sure how the banks can be blamed for trying to make huge amounts of money, that is basically what companies are around for!
However, the sub prime mortgage collapse from what i understand was strictly speaking illegal for the banks to put "our" money into, so they formed companies, borrowed hugely from "their" bank to fund these sub primes and basically raped the profits in wages and bonuses and then simply when the sub prime market collapsed, there was no money to pay back to the banks!
I like the concept that there should be a split into high street banks (retail) and commercial!
My simplistic view of things (and i realise life isn\'t alway that way) is that, i pay my way in life, bills, taxes etc and i pay into a pension that been agreed and promised to me.
Now if banks want to use my money while its in my account then fine but if i want it back when i need it (including my pension when i retire) then it should be there for me to have. They, the bankers, are the professional ones who know about whats going on with financial things and so should be responsible if things go wrong, just like i would be if i did something wrong in my job.
I see it that they are the ones who didn\'t see the problems coming, made the mistakes and have have got us where we are now and so should be the ones to sort it out... not me! I done whats asked of me so why should i be punished by not getting whats promised to me.
Another point, which has actually been mentioned here, but keeps being left out on the news is that, yes we are being asked to increase our pension payments and yes we are being asked to work longer (untill we are 67-68) but (and this is the point thats left out) we will get less out of it at the end. Not fair in my world.
Also, the ambulance service has not been mentioned once in the news as far as i\'ve seen. Maybe its so as to not worry the public, maybe we aren\'t that important who knows, i just find that a little odd.
Adam
Adam its not a fair world I am afraid, and no one will look out for you , except yourself, although I pay massively into my pension, I know I will probably need to work until the day I die as my pension what cover the future cost of living.
Striking will not change your situation, Governments can never be black mailed from past events, if there is money in the pot then they may give you a little, but there is not, so striking will only hurt yourself and the public.
You are a saint in my eyes doing the job you do for low pay because you love your job, but in the end for your own survival you may need to retrain to go into the private sector to get the extra money you need.
Yes the banking sector is paying a little more with the bank levy, still dont buy into the claim that banking directors/bankers getting massive pay increases because we need to keep them working for us not abroad because of their talent.
Im sure bank staff earning lower down the chain at 100k have the ability to do the job the same job of another banker earning a couple of Million, I say tax the :censored:ers heavily earning more then 500K, no one needs more money then that, and if they dont like it they can fduk off from this country and live in the far east if they are unwilling for their tax to improve this country they live in.
I know lifes not fair its just hard some times when you keep getting kicked when you\'re down. We have had a lot taken from us at a local level recently so this is one step to far for a lot of people.
As for retraining to get into the private sector, I have no idea what i\'d be good at or what i could do (I always wanted to be a rock \'n Roll star but dreams dont always come true). To be honest i feel the next 10 years of the NHS will see huge changes and i can see us, the ambulance services, being privatised(?) at some point. Not sure that\'ll slove anything but its the way things are looking
Adam
Correct me if I\'m wrong in your situation, but in the Private Sector any changes to your Final Salary pension plan can only occur going forward (e.g. you cannot take away someone\'s benefit they have already accrued).
As such, what you have built up already (60ths of final salary I guess) will remain (unless they compensate you somehow for the difference in value of Final Salary vs career average salary scheme).
Therefore you are only paying more going forward, for a different pension arrangement going forward (which is more reflective of the real cost) and anything you have already will not change.
To try to put it into an example, using one part of the NHS scheme, that changed a few years back from final salary to career average salary. So for someone who was in the FS for 10 years, and then will retire in 30 years time, they\'d get 10/60 * Final Salary on retirement + 30/60 * average salary over lifetime of employment. They don\'t suddenly get 40/60 * average salary (that would be illegal)..
If they are proposing thus to change what you have already accrued, strike to your hearts content and rinse them in the courts. If though, this is only for future pension accrual, then personally I\'d have gone much further than the government, closed the Final Salary scheme, offered everyone a DC scheme, and said pay as much as you want into it - if you want a 60ths of final salary, be prepared to put in 30% of your salary for it. If you only want to pay 5% of your salary, expect to retire on £5k a year tops kinda thing!
The other thing to note, touched on in above posts, is that when you say reitre on £6k, that will be in real terms. When you actually retire in the future, you\'ll be paid a lot more than that, but it will be equivalent in real terms to what £6k a year is now. So assuming you\'re 20 years from retirement, you\'ll probably actually retire on £10k a year, accounting for inflation etc. Make sense?
As a side note, it does depend hugely on your scheme rules. For example, if your scheme rules say statutory increases in payment, they can now chose if that is RPI or CPI (generally CPI is lower) and that applies historically due to statutory increases being inflation, and the government allows either definiton of inflation.. (long story cut very short!)
I agree with Blitz, life isnt fair and as i asked Jojo, why because you work in the public sector do you think the promises made to you, i guess you mean contract by that, should be any different to private sector workers who are having exactly the same done to them as you?
The government were warned about the banking ethics/crisis with sub primes a long long time before it happened, i remember watching a programme before northern rock had gone down, explaining the ins and outs of it, the way the bank bosses had set up companies to use the banks money as the banks werent directly allowed to use the money in that way. The bank of england were powerless, perhaps because control or part control had been put with the Fsa (i think).
Whilst we suffer now, public and private sector, a awful lot of people got very very rich because of this and are probably now kicked backed in the carribean somewhere laughing literally all the way to bank!
I wanted to be a model, but realised you had to be good looking :)
Speaking of the RPI to CPI switch, seems that\'s part of the reason for the strikes:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2011/oct/25/unions-high-court-public-sector-pensions-reform
In reality, looks like it\'s a case of tough s**t on that one, due to the wordiness of most scheme rules. If the rules explicitly state RPI, then it\'s illegal. If it just says "inflation", I guess you can pick whatever definition you wish (RPI, RPIX, CPI etc etc).
Taken from a friend\'s facebook page. A little dramatic i agree but you get the point and says what a lot of us are feeling...
Tomorrow, i\'m taking strike action against the Goverments Pension cuts proposal. Some of you may think we shouldn\'t, some think we should. Some people think it\'s only to do with the pensions, and with that in mind, they are unfortunatly wrong. My job entails carring/lifting heavy patients down stairs, working in cars upside down, it is a physically and mentally demanding job, do you honestly belie...ve you can do this at 68 years of age....i know i won\'t be able to, considering half the patients we go to are around that age, who are having heart problems or stokes etc.
Police and fire service can retire early....why can\'t we??? So many other reason\'s other than money
Please if you pass a picket line by an ambulance station, please toot your horn, and show your support, if you disagree with the strikes, please stop and have a chat with one of us, and we can enlighten you on the full details. Please don\'t shout abuse at us unless you know the full details. And finally for those worried about falling ill, or having an accident, the service is still providing a life and limb cover to protect you, by staff that are striking.
So when the ruling classes decide we can have a day off for a royal wedding it doesn\'t damage the economy, but when the workers decide to strike it costs millions!
(double standards + Hypocrisy)
Do you remember when the Ambulance service, fire, police and prison officers, teachers, binmen, community workers, nurses, doctors & lollipop ladies etc crashed the stock market, wiped out banks, took billions in bonuses and paid no tax? No, me neither
Adam
Just because I\'m bored at work, I am going to play devil\'s advocate to your friend\'s post...
Quote from: Ada7;800635Tomorrow, i\'m taking strike action against the Goverments Pension cuts proposal. Some of you may think we shouldn\'t, some think we should. Some people think it\'s only to do with the pensions, and with that in mind, they are unfortunatly wrong. My job entails carring/lifting heavy patients down stairs, working in cars upside down, it is a physically and mentally demanding job, do you honestly belie...ve you can do this at 68 years of age....i know i won\'t be able to, considering half the patients we go to are around that age, who are having heart problems or stokes etc.
And the builder in the private sector? Or what about any other form of labouring job which, in the private sector, will have even lower pensions than most in the public sector - if any pension at all!
Quote from: Ada7;800635Police and fire service can retire early....why can\'t we??? So many other reason\'s other than money
You can retire early. You just get a early retirement adjustment factor applied to your pension (read "reduction")
Quote from: Ada7;800635Please if you pass a picket line by an ambulance station, please toot your horn, and show your support, if you disagree with the strikes, please stop and have a chat with one of us, and we can enlighten you on the full details. Please don\'t shout abuse at us unless you know the full details. And finally for those worried about falling ill, or having an accident, the service is still providing a life and limb cover to protect you, by staff that are striking.
Trust me, you\'ll get no abuse from me. I disagree with strike action, but entirely agree with why you\'re annoyed/aggrevated and feel there\'s little else you can do.
Quote from: Ada7;800635So when the ruling classes decide we can have a day off for a royal wedding it doesn\'t damage the economy, but when the workers decide to strike it costs millions!
(double standards + Hypocrisy)
Not at all. It damaged the economy and hurt our growth figures for the 2nd quarter (ONS stated it had about a 0.5% hit - so millions and millions). One thing though, it was a bank holiday for all, so panics over what to do with children who can\'t go to school and the like is the damage area. Plus, people were off on holiday, so went out and spent money, rather than stood on picket lines not spending money - hence the strike will have a bigger impact than the wedding.
Quote from: Ada7;800635Do you remember when the Ambulance service, fire, police and prison officers, teachers, binmen, community workers, nurses, doctors & lollipop ladies etc crashed the stock market, wiped out banks, took billions in bonuses and paid no tax? No, me neither
Not explicitly, but I do (and still) remember when ambulance/fire/police/prison/nurses/teachers/binmen etc borrowed on credit cards rather than saved before buying their new flat screen tv, or borrowed to buy a car, holiday etc - the main cause of the market crash being people borrowing money now rather than saving up and waiting (essentially, that is the whole basis of the current crisis) and, if not being unable to pay those debts back, are now paying them off and cutting back on luxuries, which is killing businesses causing a lot of the current pain..
Sorry... I am honestly bored at work so playing devil\'s advocate.
I kinda wish I could go on strike presently (currently under consultation period over new terms/conditions on pay & benefits within our company) but
unfortunately, as one high up person in HR pointed out simplistically, they can\'t make us accept them, but you either accept them, or pretty much go elsewhere...
As said before, i have nothing but praise for the ambulance service, however, it sounds to me like your friends choice of words is, i only took the job because of what it offers, salary, pension etc! Im guessing most choose the paramedics because they wanted to help others, just because they are helping others, their own choice, i feel a little jaded that they use that as justification to stand by them! Harsh as it is, no one was forced into the paramedics, the fact your job is noble and helpful, should not be used as a bargaining tool and on that note, is it any different for teachers? They can still carry out their job at 68?
I have to be honest, i think the forces are the most hard done by in this country, yet as everything, it was their choice to choose that career, how many paramedics do you know who have died in the field of duty or lost limbs in the last year?
You choose to join the forces or any of the other public services because you\'re motivated by more than money and you know there\'s a risk that you\'ll be put in harms way but you do expect to be adequately remunerated for the tasks you\'re asked to perform. So it\'s particularly galling when your remuneration package is being "adjusted" through no fault of your own. Especially when the "adjustment" is due to amoral and cavalier financiers who throw quantities of money we can barely fathom around in a manner that will cause problems somewhere just generally not to them.
It probably costs in the order of £250,000 to train a paramedic and probably around £50k a year to employ them, that is their pay, their pension and their other associated costs. Over a 30 year career that\'s £1.75 million. When bankers are earning that in bonuses annually and then dodging paying tax on them it\'s a hard pill to swallow being told that your pension is being shrunk to bail the country out because cavalier bankers lent money to people who couldn\'t pay it back.
Am I reading that right Will??? £50k!!!!!!!!!!! I\'d like to work for ur ambulance service! :o Having done 10years in the service I am on the top most pay banding for my role doing a 42 hour week and I ain\'t out of the £20k\'s!!!! Blimey....do people really think we get £50k???
The new role of ECSW\'s, all of whom work on the front line ambulances responding to 999 calls with either a paramedic or technician, are on just under £14k.
No wonder the public don\'t get our pain at losing potentially £3k in a year topped with a two and a half year, so far, pay freeze if they think we\'re earning that much!
That truly isn\'t a rant at u Will...that is just my surprise....it\'s actually quite nice to think someone thinks we\'re worth that much!! ;)
Quote from: Jojo;800689Am I reading that right Will??? £50k!!!!!!!!!!! I\'d like to work for ur ambulance service! :o Having done 10years in the service I am on the top most pay banding for my role doing a 42 hour week and I ain\'t out of the £20k\'s!!!! Blimey....do people really think we get £50k???
He\'s saying, I think, that the cost to the employer in total is about £50k.
I know that the general equation is to double the salary and you get he cost of employing someone (Employers NI, H&S compliance, insurance, equipment, power, HR services, IT, etc). It all adds up.
I remember when I ran my own company (just me and one other) and added up all the taxes (PAYE, Emp NI, Corp tax, etc) the figure was well over 65% compared to the money I brought in to the company. That was before pension and VAT on anything I spent it on.
Ah...ok. Bit of a relief, thought there was some real confusion going on there!! :eek: Was a nice thought though......:rolleyes:
If I\'m honest I think the best way the ambulance service could save money would not be through making these cuts but through spending some money educating the public on what actually constitutes an emergency. It costs around £700 each job an ambulance rolls to. In a normal 12hour shift I would say, on average, each crew at Guildford station attends roughly 8-10 jobs. Of those jobs I would estimate at least 75% of them have absolutely no need for an ambulance. The Service, and therefore the tax payer, would save far more than they will if these pension changes do take place if they could stop 999 being called for 41yr olds with diahorrea for 2 days and 35 yr olds with headaches......and then there are the people who are simply drunk....
Quote from: Jojo;800709Ah...ok. Bit of a relief, thought there was some real confusion going on there!! :eek: Was a nice thought though......:rolleyes:
If I\'m honest I think the best way the ambulance service could save money would not be through making these cuts but through spending some money educating the public on what actually constitutes an emergency. It costs around £700 each job an ambulance rolls to. In a normal 12hour shift I would say, on average, each crew at Guildford station attends roughly 8-10 jobs. Of those jobs I would estimate at least 75% of them have absolutely no need for an ambulance. The Service, and therefore the tax payer, would save far more than they will if these pension changes do take place if they could stop 999 being called for 41yr olds with diahorrea for 2 days and 35 yr olds with headaches......and then there are the people who are simply drunk....
Surely if as you say you educate the public to only use the ambulance service in an emergency, by your own words 75% of call outs will be stopped therefore common sense would say that 75% of ambulance crews wouldnt be needed.
I can see how that would save money but not really going to help your prospects of keeping a job let alone worrying about your pension.
Not really an issue.
We have so many calls now the Service we work for are currently employing serveral different private ambulance firms and a number of St John vehicles as the only way to meet demand.
Get rid of half the stupid jobs, factor in the fact that we are losing staff by the bucket load and they are barely managing to recruit anyone and, soon, we\'ll just about meet in the middle and be right without any redundancies!! ;)
They had the general secretary of the nu on sky news this morning talking the unions point of view, some fair comments etc
But and a big but, why do the unions and public sector workers (which he was) always bang on about bankers wages, bonuses, heads of business pay rises etc as an example of how unfair it is?? What other people earn has absolutely nothing to do with your wage or bonuses, if you wanted to earn more money, go and be a banker, head of business!
I am afraid to say it strikes me as typical labour induced, he earns more than more and its just not fair type syndrome! This to me is where the unions fall down, this hard done by attitude, when really, just stand up for what you believe and dont worry about others wages etc
The private sector entitled to their wage however what they\'re not entitled to is a free ride when they mess it up and then jeopardise their wages. The government should not have allowed Northern Rock or HBOS to continue trading, they should have safeguarded the members of the public who had savings with them, continued to finance the mortgages and loans that were being issued by the company and then wound the businesses up, either that or it should have become a nationalised bank and only dealt in high street finance. We should not have sured up their business and allowed the same executives that lead the bank into bankruptcy to continue working for the bank and paying themselves enormous bonuses.
Put it this way, if I drive a warship aground, lose classified material or commit an act that jeopardises the safety of my ship or the wider maritime community, I\'d be investigated and if found to have been negligent then I would lose my job. However if someone makes a mess of running a bank then they get a government hand out and a paycheck that would pay for the through life costs of several public servants! It\'s a little hard to come to terms with a serious dent in your pay or pension when you see the same people proposing this allowing failing banks to hand out massive paycheques to people of questionable integrity and ability!
By the way Jojo, I know paramedics don\'t earn £50k a year, I was working on their capitation rate, the cost of employing someone, as iaint says. I spent a while looking at the costs of employing someone in the RN and the capitation rates is around twice what the individuals annual salary is or thereabouts for most of the military and public services. Unless you\'re involved in something like military aviation, in which case the annual cost of employing you makes your salary something of an afterthought!
Quote from: Will66;800732The government should not have allowed Northern Rock or HBOS to continue trading
Absolutely 100%!! So blame Labour for not dealing with it sooner!!
Unfortunately I cannot see that it would have played out much different whatever Political Party was in power. Unfortunately the elected officials we have now are a group of professional politicians who have dedicated their lives to political success, there are few amongst either the Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet who have had jobs in the commercial or public sectors, or if they did they are in the dim and distant past. They\'re out of touch with the general public and too swayed by lobbyists and political donations to be effective.
In Will66\'s Britain there would be many changes, party politics would be outlawed as would political point scoring, polling would also be outlawed. Political representatives would have to spend at least 40% of their time in their constituency, talking to their constituents and they would have to record pertinent comments and pass them back to their leadership for consideration and action. It would make being an MP a lot of work but if you\'re in that sort of position you need to work for it. Political Spin would be punishable by 24 hours in the stocks. The National Health Service would be in for a serious shake up, as would the Welfare system, though these two areas could form the basis for a major thesis in their own right. Investment in the private sector would be targeted at generating a high tech manufacturing and technology based economy rather than a finance based one, this would mean that regardless of the global economic climate anything we produced would always have intrinsic value and the British workforce would have a significant and useful skill set that would mean they were far more employable. Apprentice schemes would be extended and reinvigorated to give people passing out of these schemes real skills and abilities, they would also be greatly increased in number to open them up to more school leavers. School careers advice would be far more in depth and school leavers would be given the option of voluntary service in a wide number of roles to give them a chance to make better informed decisions about their future career, an investment in their future. University would be funded on a grant basis to those selected on the basis of academic achievement AND performance at selection assessments, again the grant would be an investment by the government in their future that is paid back by them achieving in life, which could be in any number of manners. Ill thought out targets and comparative league tables would be scrapped, particularly the ones which can be massaged by administrators to give a misleading indication of performance. Amoral press practises would result in the closure of that organisation and the forfeit of its assets to the crown.
Stuff like that! :D
Quote from: Will66;800768Unfortunately I cannot see that it would have played out much different whatever Political Party was in power. Unfortunately the elected officials we have now are a group of professional politicians who have dedicated their lives to political success, there are few amongst either the Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet who have had jobs in the commercial or public sectors, or if they did they are in the dim and distant past. They\'re out of touch with the general public and too swayed by lobbyists and political donations to be effective.
In Will66\'s Britain there would be many changes, party politics would be outlawed as would political point scoring, polling would also be outlawed. Political representatives would have to spend at least 40% of their time in their constituency, talking to their constituents and they would have to record pertinent comments and pass them back to their leadership for consideration and action. It would make being an MP a lot of work but if you\'re in that sort of position you need to work for it. Political Spin would be punishable by 24 hours in the stocks. The National Health Service would be in for a serious shake up, as would the Welfare system, though these two areas could form the basis for a major thesis in their own right. Investment in the private sector would be targeted at generating a high tech manufacturing and technology based economy rather than a finance based one, this would mean that regardless of the global economic climate anything we produced would always have intrinsic value and the British workforce would have a significant and useful skill set that would mean they were far more employable. Apprentice schemes would be extended and reinvigorated to give people passing out of these schemes real skills and abilities, they would also be greatly increased in number to open them up to more school leavers. School careers advice would be far more in depth and school leavers would be given the option of voluntary service in a wide number of roles to give them a chance to make better informed decisions about their future career, an investment in their future. University would be funded on a grant basis to those selected on the basis of academic achievement AND performance at selection assessments, again the grant would be an investment by the government in their future that is paid back by them achieving in life, which could be in any number of manners. Ill thought out targets and comparative league tables would be scrapped, particularly the ones which can be massaged by administrators to give a misleading indication of performance. Amoral press practises would result in the closure of that organisation and the forfeit of its assets to the crown.
Stuff like that! :D
Paragraphs Will paragraphs!!! so hard to read lol
Sorry, I got a bit too involved and didn\'t consider punctuation!