Some luck has finally come my way and i start my new better paid job next week after having a pretty "average year".
I`ve got most of my single turbo parts and will continue doing that throughout the winter, when its done it will have around 450hp to keep it reliable. If i get a whole year of driving it without any problems i will sell off the engine.
As soon as the single turbo conversion is complete im gonna start saving for an ls3 engine straight from the corvette factory.
The cost of the engine is £6000
t56 gearbox £2000
diff and subframe, kit £2500
ancilleries £1500
Remember this engine will be completly standard and still push out 500hp and 500lb torque whilst doing 30mpg. I didnt want it to come to this but having the car for 6 yrs and only driving it for 1 of those yrs i have had to re-think my future plans for my car. Seem to spend more time with my head under the bonnet than driving the thing!
How much would a 20b cost to build with the same power?
I was looking at prices for billet rotors and upgraded seals... ridiculous!
I really like the sound of 20bs too, oh well
A ls3 is not 500 std , and you don\'t want a corvette spec one , I wouldn\'t buy new as you can get a pull out for a lot less , they don\'t really go wrong so silly to pay through the nose . You would be better not using the t56 if you have the choice , a ls3 will be fantastic in it but do your research as it may same you a fortune in time and money !!
I think their 470 so a tubular manifold and remap should get me 500. Which gearbox is best for this conversion?
It depends on what Dyno you use as they all read different set they are about 400@ wheels and very smooth and bags of torque , they work very well with a cam to make them breath better , use a tr 6060 if you can
Sweet, yeah ive heard of them boxes. You fancy doing the conversion next winter?:god
There is nothing better than 20b. But if you really want V8, then use tinker27\'s services. His work is good.
But, I would still say, ignore V8 and buy 20b.
Depends on your goals but roughly,
2500 Engine RX Motors ask for Tim
Roughly 3500 Rebuild by WGT/Hayward/Powergains/OLDONE Racing
1000 porting and Injectors along with Fuel pump and bits
1500 ECU
Job done and you could have a reliable and FASTER car. I know, I may have missed something but that is still a better option :D
Cheers
20B= £20,000. Simples. Lol.
If you were to do a 20B you got to get some beefy bridge ports in it to give it that sound. Gt42/45 turbo at 1bar would probably give 650Fwhp.
I would have the 20B over the v8 but if your wanting your fuel to take you further, then a ported 20B is not the sensible solution.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;79995120B= £20,000. Simples. Lol.
If you were to do a 20B you got to get some beefy bridge ports in it to give it that sound. Gt42/45 turbo at 1bar would probably give 650Fwhp.
Grant I am sure you saw the Dyno Sheet of my FD. I made 520FWHp on a Street Ported Engine. So, with a bridge port and GT42 OR 45 Turbo you are looking 750FWHP at only about 10 Bar a Boost!! "Roughly"
Mir
Quote from: Mir;799960Grant I am sure you saw the Dyno Sheet of my FD. I made 520FWHp on a Street Ported Engine. So, with a bridge port and GT42 OR 45 Turbo you are looking 750FWHP at only about 10 Bar a Boost!! "Roughly"
Mir
750fwhp @ 10 bar of boost:eek::eek::Giggle:rolleyes::rolleyes:
would want a lot more than that for the 2 seconds the engine would last:Thumbsup!:Giggle:Giggle
If I was to convert my RX again I would either go with an LSx V8 and a 5 speed box as the T56 has too many niggles and ends up with either 1st or 6th being practically redundant.
However from some recent experience on another conversion project I\'d now use the Jag/Mazda 3.0 AJV6. Cheap supply of engines. The 5 speed manual on them is tiny though much harder to find. The bottom end is able to withstand very high RPM and only needs a cam and throttle bodies to get 320-340 BHP.
You cant ignore weight differense. If you are building track car, v8 is far too heavy. And it effects Fd´s axle weight, it wont be 50/50.
Quote from: Mir;799960Grant I am sure you saw the Dyno Sheet of my FD. I made 520FWHp on a Street Ported Engine. So, with a bridge port and GT42 OR 45 Turbo you are looking 750FWHP at only about 10 Bar a Boost!! "Roughly"
Mir
Well yes but I was giving the lower amount so that people would be surprised at the HP they would actually get.
650 would be a good number to start with ;)
Quote from: re japi;799964You cant ignore weight differense. If you are building track car, v8 is far too heavy. And it effects Fd´s axle weight, it wont be 50/50.
You\'re right I\'ve only managed 51/49 F/R so I\'ve failed miserably :)
I won\'t argue that a rotary will always that little bit lighter like for like but it\'s possibly not as much as many people think.
A 20b turbo will probably be heavier then a v8 me thinks?
Weight distribution can be made better by some firewall chopping.
Craig win had a 20b (kermit) and a v8 at the same time and the v8 was quicker round the track ! , I\'m not saying the 20b is not any good because it is , I drove it and it was very fast . They make two different types of cars , and the 20b used about three times the fuel I kid you not !!! He turned up to the first shake down run a donnington with a full tank and four jerry cans , which is what his 13b would have used in a full day on the track , he sent home with three jerry cans full , I would look into both options and have a drive in both and make your own mind up don\'t take people\'s word for it as most don\'t really know what they are talking about ,even with v8s there are lots of options kits/people who do them , same as 20b conversions try to get a all done price as there are things that need doing to make it right . With a v8 you are fitting all new ( 2006>) stuff , what gear box would you run with a 20b as a std box won\'t last long ? . We all think our way is the best just find the best choice for you and your pocket .
What is the weight bias of a 20b ? Without cutting the bulkhead ? The v8 is within 1% front to rear ( could be closer if anyone really thought it made that much difference )
Quote from: Mir;799960Grant I am sure you saw the Dyno Sheet of my FD. I made 520FWHp on a Street Ported Engine. So, with a bridge port and GT42 OR 45 Turbo you are looking 750FWHP at only about 10 Bar a Boost!! "Roughly"
Mir
10 bar :Hammer:Hammer:Hammer:Hammer:Hammer:Hammer:Hammer:Hammer offcourse, I meant less than a Bar, I think I was drunk, when I wrote this :Giggle:Giggle:Giggle:Giggle:Giggle:Giggle
Sorry!!
Mir
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;799975A 20b turbo will probably be heavier then a v8 me thinks?
Weight distribution can be made better by some firewall chopping.
Bang on :Ladys-man
This is exactly what I did. My car handles better than a 13b FD. Actually, I must admit that after installing a Re Bridge Bar, my car even handles better
Mir
I think either engines would be great.
If you are concerned which will give you the most miles per tank of fuel then the v8 is probably the best option. Unless you do what tinker has done and stick 2 turbos on your v8 then fuel consumption will be terrible. Lmao. Will go like stink though!!
Guys im not gonna lie to you, i would KILL for 20b but ive gotta listen to my head and not my heart, after all ive got a new job not won the lottery!
Its like Craig said iam after a standard new motor with new diff, gearbox etc not another highly tuned engine. £20k for just the engine is just silly and you cant blame people for swaying towards the v8. Parts are cheap, fuel consumption isnt that bad and lets be honest im gonna spend less money/time under the bonnet.
I\'d love a V8 converted FD. After being taken for a spin in one I was amazing at how quick it was and it was under 400BHP. Having lived with a rotary as my only car for a number of years I never lost the "whats gonna happen when I turn the key today" mentality that my FD gave me, despite nothing major going wrong, there was always some little niggle that lay in the back of my mind. Going V8 would, IMHO, remove those doubts and allow me to enjoy a car in the way I want to (driving nice and sensibly with the ocassional hoon about) and return a reasonably MPG (although good MPG and sports cars are not really compatable)
For me the sound of the V8 and the brutal acceleration left a massive impression on me and I\'ve yet to have a similar experience in a rotary.
Now dont get me wrong, I love the flexability of the rotary and the engineering behind it facinates me, but with £20K of my money on the line I\'d rather have a V8
This is exactly my point also, every time i drive my fd im driving it with sweaty palms "waiting" for the next breakdown to happen constantly on edge. It seems you dont drive a rebuilt rotary with your hands on the steering wheel anymore- more like with your knees whilst having your fingers crossed carefully treading on egg shells..
In away its kind of put me off turbos too. I remember saying yrs ago when i first started with r5gt and rs turbos that there is no substitute for turbo power but there is.... masive engines.
Quote from: Bobbit;800015For me the sound of the V8 and the brutal acceleration left a massive impression on me and I\'ve yet to have a similar experience in a rotary.
fduk me dude I need to take you out in mine, then you know what brutal acceleration is lol
^^^^ Now, that is an offer, I wouldn\'t be refusing :)
Quote from: turbo boy;800019In away its kind of put me off turbos too. I remember saying yrs ago when i first started with r5gt and rs turbos that there is no substitute for turbo power but there is.... masive engines.
The saying goes "there\'s no replacement for cubic inch displacement" ;) :D
Don\'t forget that with high power turbo engines it\'s very important to have a decent set up to stop them exploding , it\'s all in the mapping/cooling mostly .
Most people will have piggy backed ECU systems , 20 year old wiring + sensors , worn out fuel pumps etc etc etc and then expect 500bhp to last 100,000 miles , lol . Also speaking to the right tuners/builders is a must and always listen to what they say .
With V8\'s there\'s no way on earth they do 30mpg unless on a clear motorway sitting at 1000rpm . Even then it won\'t happen , all my mates 7 litre V8 cars do £50 an hour on fuel and never make as much power as all the V8 hype says . A 350bhp (dyno-dynamics) V8 is always 500bhp down the pub and it will feel like 500bhp to most people as they make huge amounts of torque due to the shear size of the things .
Obviously a huge V8 engine making 50bhp a litre will be very reliable compared to a turbo hairdryer with 250bhp a litre but that\'s just common sense so you can\'t really compare the two in my opinion .
I just want an engine that\'s makes lots of noise!!! The more and the louder the better.
Whats the different in cost between the two (installation wise?)
Generally I\'d say its down to what you\'re after. Do you want a highly strung engine that you\'re going to worry about every time you take it out or something thats detuned and will probably never have any big issues. As sweet as a 20b is, it\'s pretty pointless spending all that dosh and not going for a ridiculous port / turbo combination when you could have a couple of fairly big power 2 rotors for the same price.
As far as usability goes you\'re not going to get better than a big naturally aspirated engine (especially if its not compromising the handling). However, V8\'s sound rubbish and aren\'t nearly as cool as 20b\'s
This does not sound rubbish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mvL5LroSpg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
V8s sound awesome but then so do rotaries. There\'s something about both, a certain uncouth-but-mean, business-like noise to both. It\'s not a smooth, sophisticated noise like a Straight six or a V12, nor a flat blare like 4 cylinder, it\'s very cool.
I would have thought that a Lexus V8 or a BMW V8 would be far superior to a Yank one in both reliability and design . I think the Lexus V8 engine is reputed to be the best so maybe take a look at those before deciding .
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;800065This does not sound rubbish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mvL5LroSpg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
1) im guessing thats a fairly tuned one as it goes to 8-9k
2) compare that to a 20b (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3hEeose1-E)
3) it still sounds like a big lawnmower
each to their own though :3gears-lh
edit, i missed the end of that video you posted......dam, maybe i was wrong!
Well, guys I kinda lost the energy to argue over V8 and 20b :(. All I would say is, EVERY ENGINE BLOWS NO ENGINE IS BULLETPROOF. It is famously said that "Its not how you stand by your car, its how you race your car". This simple principle applies to rotaries and piston engines. Its how you look after your car decides your fate more than the choice of engine you install. So in nutshell, V8 has no comparison with 20b Rotary end off. I would like to see V8 street car, breaking Robs and James\'s record, then we will talk.
Mir
Ya, i would do everything to get 20b. :) And i like v8´s too. My friends owns lots of different kinds of v8 cars. They are awesome.
But cause i am "track" guy, i just dont think that v8 is best option. Just because they are heavy and big
But BMW´s M engines or v8 would be nice in FD. Much more compact and lighter than american lump.
Quote from: dthebuk;8000781) im guessing thats a fairly tuned one as it goes to 8-9k
2) compare that to a 20b (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3hEeose1-E)
3) it still sounds like a big lawnmower
each to their own though :3gears-lh
edit, i missed the end of that video you posted......dam, maybe i was wrong!
It\'s a NASCAR engine converted to fuel injection as they normally run huge carbs and methanol i think, part of their rules. A v8 revving this high could be put in a street car too, but I think a 10,000 rpm 20B PP non turbo would go longer and be cheaper to rebuild as there is less parts to replace.
I\'ll post a side by side comparison of the two motor configurations so you can make your own mind up over which is bigger, heavier etc.
For me put the plenum on the rotary and they pretty much take up the same space. The V8 is certainly no further forward as they both end in line with the fuse box.
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/bimbleuk/Misc/Rotary_V8_Comparison.jpg)
Quote from: re japi;800084But BMW´s M engines or v8 would be nice in FD. Much more compact and lighter than american lump.
Think you have missed the point of the LSX engines and why they are popular in many cars not just FD\'s. They are reliable, compact and they are light. Head and block are aluminium. Single cam with push rod may seem like an old concept, but means the heads are tiny compared to a modern twin overhead camshaft design. A V8 is pretty short compared to a straight 6. Apart from a V6 it is the best use of the space to maintain decent weight distribution.
If you like rotarys then you will always aspire to the 20b so it\'s a futile debait, but if you want a reliable powertrain with sensible running cost the V8 puts a good argument forward. If you compare it to the 13b then the initial cost of the V8 can be excessive.
I\'m having deja-vu here i am sure. Have we not had this discussion about 1 million times already? :rolleyes:
Quote from: B.Martin;800095I\'m having deja-vu here i am sure. Have we not had this discussion about 1 million times already? :rolleyes:
Yes but it\'s a good one
Quote from: 4packet;800094Think you have missed the point of the LSX engines and why they are popular in many cars not just FD\'s. They are reliable, compact and they are light. Head and block are aluminium. Single cam with push rod may seem like an old concept, but means the heads are tiny compared to a modern twin overhead camshaft design. A V8 is pretty short compared to a straight 6. Apart from a V6 it is the best use of the space to maintain decent weight distribution.
If you like rotarys then you will always aspire to the 20b so it\'s a futile debait, but if you want a reliable powertrain with sensible running cost the V8 puts a good argument forward. If you compare it to the 13b then the initial cost of the V8 can be excessive.
20B NA would be really reliable.
Yep maybe an NA 20B would provide enough power without the heat and complication of the turbos and keep it Mazda.
The LSx V8 route in the US for example makes lots of sense as they are so readily available. Not so clear cut over here due to the limited supply.
Quote from: bimbleuk;800090I\'ll post a side by side comparison of the two motor configurations so you can make your own mind up over which is bigger, heavier etc.
For me put the plenum on the rotary and they pretty much take up the same space. The V8 is certainly no further forward as they both end in line with the fuse box.
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s257/bimbleuk/Misc/Rotary_V8_Comparison.jpg)
wrong comparison mate:rolleyes:. If you see the firewall modification of both cars, you would see that the firewall of the V8 fd has been modified whereas, the firewall of the 13b fd is in a stock position. So No COMPARISON I am afraid
Cheers:WaveBye
Firewall hasn\'t moved Mir with the V8?? So comparison is still valid.
Out of interest how much power does the NA 20b reliably produce and still pass an MOT?
450fwhp if you get the ports right.
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;800086It\'s a NASCAR engine converted to fuel injection as they normally run huge carbs and methanol i think, part of their rules. A v8 revving this high could be put in a street car too, but I think a 10,000 rpm 20B PP non turbo would go longer and be cheaper to rebuild as there is less parts to replace.
surely the point of going v8 is to keep it reliable, i.e having it at fairly stock power with some breather mods? Stock big v8\'s must last longer than a pp\'d 20b surely?
Quote from: dthebuk;800120surely the point of going v8 is to keep it reliable, i.e having it at fairly stock power with some breather mods? Stock big v8\'s must last longer than a pp\'d 20b surely?
Yes but I was meaning a 10,000 rpm v8 compared to a 10,000rpm 20B.
With a piston engine everything has to stop and start at the bottom and top of the stroke so eventually parts inside the engine will stretch and need replacing, even though parts are made of stronger materials these days.
A standard LSX engine would last for a lot longer than the 20B 10,000rpm\'er
I like both of the setups. I would have both if I could.
There aren\'t many people who would run a V8 at 10,000 rpm outside of racing, the cost would be monumentally prohibitive and the cam required to run at that speed would mean it was a recalcitrant pig at road speeds, if you were looking for a reliable powerplant you\'d have a V8 that only ran to 6500 rpm.
I wasn\'t talking road cars. I was giving a like for like comparison.
20B or 13B single tub FTMFW :)
then again, have a v8 if you want, each to their own....... think I must be frequenting the wrong forum these days, I was sure this was a rotary forum?! lol :P
Quote from: 4packet;800118Firewall hasn\'t moved Mir with the V8?? So comparison is still valid.
Out of interest how much power does the NA 20b reliably produce and still pass an MOT?
Sorry mate look closely! I don\'t know what area you are looking at! Guys please check and pass a judgement whether the firewall is modified or not! Or am I going blind :D
on a serious note it\'s modified!
Mir
Comparing the reliability on both engines is laughable. We all know that a 13b rotary on average will last about 60k miles providing its been looked after then its time for its first rebuild which will just consist of gaskets, seals, springs etc. If you do it yourself it`ll cost £900 in parts if you take it to a garage you might get stung- my mate had to remortgage his house to fund a standard rebuild!
Then when you put the engine back together again using stock parts is it gonna last another 60k miles? Er, no. probably 30k if your lucky. Not only do you have to fork out another £900 for your seals and stuff but the block would be pointless putting back together again as there would be too much erosion and wear to use again. How much is a new 13b rotary block minus the e-shaft? £4000? And then ideally you`d be better off replacing everything, you know nothing lasts forever.
Believe me i have been thinking this over for the last few months now and its always gonna come down to overall cost and low maintanence. Most rotary enthusiasts tend to be mechanics and when you look at some of the quickest rexes out there, they are owned by performance tuning garages who can chuck £££ at it without battin an eyelid. I cannot see the sence in spunking £20k on just an engine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=FLBzdSq7A3sZJ9nm4F59Hc_w&v=zxsY4lEGRBI&feature=player_detailpage
20k gives you buzz of being a king of the Road! End off! If Jaydee is reading this post, I would ask him humbly to post the story of that Evo he smoked when we were coming back from Flame and Thunder! Mate I thought James car will just fly off the road!! So If you want a fast car go Rotary but if you want a family car go Skybus or Evo, seven seater etc etc
Quote from: turbo boy;800145Comparing the reliability on both engines is laughable. We all know that a 13b rotary on average will last about 60k miles providing its been looked after then its time for its first rebuild which will just consist of gaskets, seals, springs etc. If you do it yourself it`ll cost £900 in parts if you take it to a garage you might get stung- my mate had to remortgage his house to fund a standard rebuild!
Then when you put the engine back together again using stock parts is it gonna last another 60k miles? Er, no. probably 30k if your lucky. Not only do you have to fork out another £900 for your seals and stuff but the block would be pointless putting back together again as there would be too much erosion and wear to use again. How much is a new 13b rotary block minus the e-shaft? £4000? And then ideally you`d be better off replacing everything, you know nothing lasts forever.
Believe me i have been thinking this over for the last few months now and its always gonna come down to overall cost and low maintanence. Most rotary enthusiasts tend to be mechanics and when you look at some of the quickest rexes out there, they are owned by performance tuning garages who can chuck £££ at it without battin an eyelid. I cannot see the sence in spunking £20k on just an engine.
I love these posts. They always say exactly 60k. It\'s amazing how its always \'60k\'.
Kash\'s engine has been abused for 30k on a rebuilt engine. It has run 3 different turbos, boost from 0.9 bar through to 1.4 bar, 29k later its still getting readings of high 6s. This was even after a 2 bar spike on a T51 SPL. Rev limit 8.5k. This engine has been redlined constantly.
So where people get their \'facts\' from make me laugh.
Who the hell does 30,000 miles in their FDs? Most people would average 3,000 a year so that\'s ten years use for £900 self rebuild.
Now that is a bargain! Lmao.
30,000 miles on a rebuilt engine Sounds rubbish. I would have thought it would last close too a standard new engine If done properly ?
Quote from: Rzla;800158I love these posts. They always say exactly 60k. It\'s amazing how its always \'60k\'.
Kash\'s engine has been abused for 30k on a rebuilt engine. It has run 3 different turbos, boost from 0.9 bar through to 1.4 bar, 29k later its still getting readings of high 6s. This was even after a 2 bar spike on a T51 SPL. Rev limit 8.5k. This engine has been redlined constantly.
So where people get their \'facts\' from make me laugh.
Tell me about it Raz!!! Plus 1!!! As I said before, it\'s how you look after your car matters the most than-which engine is reliable?!! Sorry for the repetition!
Cheers
Mir
Quote from: RyanT;80016130,000 miles on a rebuilt engine Sounds rubbish. I would have thought it would last close too a standard new engine If done properly ?
Ryan do you know how Kash drives his car??????? Lol you will be surprised! He once raced for 12 MINUTES and the car was redline frequently! I wil leave the rest of the storie!! As I want Kash to disclose the rest of the stories himself! Loll
in nutshell, Kash drives his car like a "Stolen" car mate!!
If its any help my mates Saab has done 200,000 miles and hasn\'t broken yet.
Maybe we should all use Saab engines?
I think the main point here with a v8 is that it will give you 400Hp and 400torques without much alteration and will last longer than the rotary equivalent.
People may think I\'m mocking the rotary but I\'m not, I would be happy for my rotary to do 30,000 miles and then go bang because that would be my opportunity to get bigger ports and more poooowwwwwweeeeeeerrrrr
Ha ha I won\'t worry then. :D
How heavy 20B is anyways? And that v8? My Beemers v12 is 240kg(aluminium), old v8´s are like +350kg....
Quote from: re japi;800207How heavy 20B is anyways? And that v8? My Beemers v12 is 240kg(aluminium), old v8´s are like +350kg....
If I remember correctly they are just over 210 kgs with ancilliaries and cast iron manifolds (no one reuses them as they are restrictive and don\'t fit the FD). The T56 gearbox adds quite a bit at 60+ kgs.
Quote from: Mir;800117wrong comparison mate:rolleyes:. If you see the firewall modification of both cars, you would see that the firewall of the V8 fd has been modified whereas, the firewall of the 13b fd is in a stock position. So No COMPARISON I am afraid
Cheers:WaveBye
That\'s the same car before and after the conversion. The firewall is not modified. The lip is cut back so I can remove the plenum without the hassle of removing the map sensor at the back. Not everyone bothers to do that mod.
Pah you dont even need a 20B to beat a V8 racing car, a little old 12A turbo will do the job!!!
case in point LOL :D :p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXjzLaVvhjU
Trying to compare the weight of different engines is difficult. How much of the drivetrain are you including in each figure: manifolds, ancillaries (with or without AC), turbos, intercooler, oil coolers, wiring, plumbing etc. There is very little between a 13b on twins and the V8. As Bimbleuk has mentioned, the major increases in weight is the gearbox which is mounted low and central. This is why the balance is not affected much with the conversion. BTW the Tremec T56 has been mounted to some FD\'s running big rotary power. A typical V8 FD gains about 60kg with a very small shift in weight to the front wheels. This is based on real builds with corner weights pre and post.
As an engineer I think the rotary engine is a great piece of engineering and a triumph for Mazda to have developed it as far as they have. I\'ve visited the Mazda museum at the Hiroshima plant, studied it\'s history and been in awe of the 26B in the 787B. It does have it\'s inherent issues so it\'s the emotional choice and proabably why people are so passionate about it. I understand why the rotary is defended on the forums. It\'s just a shame that these topics don\'t stick to the facts and properly discuss the engineering merits of both Rotary and V8.
I\'ve got a bare 13B engine so i\'ll weigh it tomorrow for you . It seems very small and light and i\'ll guess it\'s about 80 kilos . :)
Quote from: BlitzBoy;800021fduk me dude I need to take you out in mine, then you know what brutal acceleration is lol
I was hoping someone would offer me a ride :yes :Thumbsup!