Mazda Rotary Club

Basically like every other rotary fanatic, ive spent the majority of my life drooling (and other thing ;) ) over the sound that a quad rotor engine makes. I know that building one for me is not a question of if but rather "when"
 
Then when I sit and consider the technicalities I start to wonder a little bit. My question is not "can I build one" or "how much will it cost" ive read all about that and understand all of the complications/costs/crying/heartbreak that will likely be involved when I get round to it.
 

 
At first I thought its a bit of a daft question, then I thought not so much.
 
From watching videos and listening to soundclips - I realise that any P/P engine is almost always about as loud as you get before you move onto a jet engine :burnout Whilst this was cool when I was like 15, these days I dont like getting pulled over every 50 feet or having to dip the clutch when A police car goes past :wiggle
 
I understand that a P/P engine needs a large bore unrestricted exhaust to make the best use of its powerband.
 
Again - I know that P/P engines are pretty hopeless for street driving due to their characteristics but still its something Im interested in exploring.
 
SO
 
* Could a quad rotor be made that was still ~500bhp with a road/track legal exhaust and not ruin the characteristics of the engine
* Would a quad rotor go through an MOT? Emissions etc
* since its basically a scratch built engine - are you allowed to do this?
 
Anyway - Discuss :) Proper answers please, not just "no" Id like an opinion and your reasoning behind your opinion :)

Quote from: - Fezcat -;789098* since its basically a scratch built engine - are you allowed to do this?

I can\'t imagine why you wouldn\'t be allowed one purely on the basis that it\'s a scratch built engine, take other cars that have highly modified engines or non-factory built-from-scratch V8 lumps that aren\'t a factory-built thing, rather pre-made parts put together and built by the user.

Take that Red Victor 1 thing, that\'s street legal, barely, and that does 0.60 in a second, that\'s not exactly going to have a basic factory built lump sat in it :P

You might be put under certain stipulations by the DVLA in regards to servicing, reliability, MOT\'s or just a basic mechanics check over or something daft to make sure it\'s deemed \'safe\' but I can\'t imagine why a custom-built engine wouldn\'t be allowed, it\'s not much different from dumping a 13b into an MX5, it\'s just an engine swap with an uncategorised engine, so the DVLA will likely want to categorise it somehow

Whilst I see what you\'re saying :)
 
That daft vauxhall victor is still based around a production engine - 572ci big block chevy v8 iirc. (9.4 litres :D) And a 13b is again a production engine. albeit a non standard engine swap.
 
The 26b however isnt a production engine. I can see that a 20b shouldnt be too much of a problem due to it being a production engine in the cosmo.
 
See where im going with that train of thought?

Yeah, I do, and with that you have another problem. With it not being a production engine, you\'re highly likely to be expected to meet with this years standards of emissions regulations, which I doubt you would be able to do on a 4rotor without running intensely and dangerously on the lean side of mixture for idle....

Maaaaaargh - There must be a way around that? Im half wondering if all id need to do is advise of the chance of capacity on my v5? and it still fall under the emissions for the standard 13b - HMMMZ im going to ask my Sergeant - Brb
 
Edit: Would appear that the sergeants and my inspector are at loggerheads - the Inspector thinks it\'ll just need to pass its MOT, still pass the emissions for its year and all you\'d have to do is inform of the change of capacity on the V5 (still technically a mazda engine too..)
 
The Seargants think it would need to have a full assessment by Vosa (Booo)

If it\'s a built from scratch engine (thus won\'t have an engine code, which as far as I\'m aware, you need to send to the DVLA to complete an engine transfer form to have it registered to your V5) it will likely be classed as a \'new\' engine regardless of the era the parts are from, and thusly I would expect that you\'d have to build it with todays emissions regulations in mind which, for a 4rotor, really ain\'t happenin I don\'t think :/

By all means give it a go, I for one, would LOVE to see a street legal 4rotor! Just being realistic with expectation, but I hope there is a workaround! That would be MENTAL!! :D

right it may be different over in the uk but over here all that matters for tax purposes is that a garage ie the place that fitted it declares the engine size and stamps saying they carried out the work -could be done by a mates garage if you know anyone or an engineers report.

as for emissions our road tax system is split into two over here pre 2008 cars are taxed on cc and newer cars on emissions. could you possibly get around any newer emissions restrictions as the car is registered pre these new standards?

also couldnt you just get an engineers report done and send that into the dvla so they can reclass the car for tax purposes? and then use same for the insurance?

Lacey - I would too lol, by no means would it be a "12/48" month project - more like id be building the engine on the side for the next 4/5 years lol
 
Bernie - As far as im aware, we dont need engine swaps certified in this country?
 
Emissions aside - could one be made quiet enough to be track/street legal?
 
Id imagine no matter what the noise would probably get you pulled all the time! lol

Quote from: - Fezcat -;789107Lacey - I would too lol, by no means would it be a "12/48" month project - more like id be building the engine on the side for the next 4/5 years lol
 
Bernie - As far as im aware, we dont need engine swaps certified in this country?
 
Emissions aside - could one be made quiet enough to be track/street legal?
 
Id imagine no matter what the noise would probably get you pulled all the time! lol

I could be wrong, usually am, but I think you\'ll find that we DO need certificated engine swaps in this country as it could be classed as fraud etc. Paying tax on your car as a 1 ltr and having a 2.5ltr turbo (example) ain\'t gonna go down well with the DVLA and the tax people.

Better not to get caught out, but check the DVLA website, they\'ll have info on engine swaps etc.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/ChangesToYourRegistrationCertificate/DG_4022054

             

QuoteChanges you need to update[/B]

             You’ll need to tell the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) about the following changes to your vehicle:

• colour
• engine
• cylinder capacity
• fuel type (propulsion)
• replacing or modifying the chassis/monocoque bodyshell
• seating capacity
• weight of a goods vehicle

Change to engine and cylinder capacity (engine size)
DVLA will need written evidence of any changes to engine number and cylinder capacity (cc). Written evidence can be:

• a receipt for the replacement engine
• written evidence from the manufacturer
• an inspection report provided for insurance purposes
• written confirmation on headed paper from a garage if the change in engine size took place before you bought the vehicle

What I meant is that it doesn\'t need to be signed off bya garage, rather the v5 needs to be sent off to reflect the change in capacity by the owner? As that\'s what is used for taxation purposes in terms of payment bands.

Also do our engines have an engine number? I\'ve not found one yet?

No idea, I know the one on my Honda does, not sure when engine numbers came into effect

More of a case with our engines that the components that make up the block are regularly replaced independently of eachother. Anyway I digress :) ill look info the lad concerning road traffic etc when I\'m back at work :)

When i swapped the engine in my Nova all i had to do was send of the V5 with the new engine number and capacity. Hope this clarifies things for you, the only time you need to get a engineers report for the swap is at the insurers request :)

just to clarify dude i didnt mean you had to get an engineers report but more like an option if you need some way to verify the engine cc for what ever reason since it isnt a production engine.

Ahh right lol that makes sense, though I think they are trying to bring a law like that in as part of the eu. Tossbags.

Quote from: - Fezcat -;789122Tossbags.

Ooooh, an accurate description of the DVLA! :Laugh

*awaiting being told off for bad language*


*ahem* (http://www.sxoc.com/vbb/images/smilies/wack.gif)

You might have got away with it too if it wasn\'t for these meddling kids :D

ANYWAY - Back on topic :D

Lets move on from the legality side, Im sure there will be some sneaky way around it all (handy that I work for the police, ill find a loophole im sure ;) )

What about the technicalities - Could one be made quiet enough? like an active exhaust butterfly or something similar?

Emissions would be interesting im sure lol

Quote from: - Fezcat -;789146ANYWAY - Back on topic :D

Lets move on from the legality side, Im sure there will be some sneaky way around it all (handy that I work for the police, ill find a loophole im sure ;) )

What about the technicalities - Could one be made quiet enough? like an active exhaust butterfly or something similar?

Emissions would be interesting im sure lol

With the emissions you could always just have an air pump blow \'fresh\' air straight into the exhaust to screw with the burned mixture during MOT\'s and emissions tests, thus give the illusion of a cleaner burn that has more \'fresh\' air than fuel.....

Have you looked up what it\'ll cost in parts?
Custom crank, 4 new housings and rotors, 2x engine seals, bearing etc. And then there\'s fueling, cooling, ECU and structural modifications to think about as well as a custom exhaust and many other things you just don\'t think about till they crop up.
Not trying to sound negative but it\'s a hell of a lot of money just to get a \'noise\' when you could get the power easily on a normal engine/single turbo set up

Adam

Well aware of all of the costs involved mate, just so happens that a good mate of mine is an extremely talented cad designer :) who has unlimited access to a lot of 3d computer controled  CNC machines :)

Our plan would be to design our own 4 piece eccentric shaft and machine it ourselves, DIY P/P the rotor housings too :)

Whats the harm in it to be honest - As I said realistically it will take 4/5 years to get anywhere near having it in a car or started up - I just like to have things to think about and work on alongside what im already doing :) added to that my mate is really keen on designing and building it.

I estimate over the course of 5 years and baring in mind we can do all the massively expensive parts on the cheap - Im guestimating a figure in the region of £15,000-£20,000 although it will almost certainly be more.

I would say im very fortunate in that I come from a fairly well off family, so my paycheck gets spent on my cars - entirely :)

As I said - I know how expensive it\'ll be, I know theres a lot of work involved, but if I cant have it road legal then theres little/no point for me :)

Custom E shaft
4x rotors
4x modified P/P housings
3x modified intermediate plates
1x modified front plate
1x modified end plate
custom bearings for the modified centre plate
custom inlet runners
custom throttle body setup
custom fuel system
(probably dry sump)
custom engine mounts
cooling system
exhaust
engine management
drivetrain
shell modifications

and so on and so forth

The list is endless. Im not a dreamer, I know fullwell the MASSIVE undertaking it would be :) I like a challenege.

It seems you\'ve done your homework :p
Lucky you having the backing of your family and a friendly tame CAD designer :)
If you wanted to get more advice on it all i\'d speak to Pip and WGT as he built and fitted a 4 rotor motor a few years back. It was for a track car but i\'m sure any advice he has would be valuble for you

Adam

Haha I have ;) plenty of night shifts to read endless articles on the interweb - Ive got a lot more work to do before I commit any money to it to be honest and the last thing I want to do is waste someones time with questioms im sure they\'ve heard a thousand times unless im 100% certain that im going to go through with it all :)

to be quite frank - my intial post is more of an out loud "Muse" than anything else.

I really didnt want this thread to turn into another "im building a quad rotor" thing, im not and please dont take it as such as I expect some will come and go "yeh not possible, you\'re mad, you dont know anything" etc

Just having an outloud wonder about the likelyhood of getting one through an MOT and being able to (IF I wanted) drive it on the road :) I had a chat with my mate earlier last night and we\'re vaguely looking into it.

My above post about costs and parts is Just to highlight that I have realistic expectations of how much it would likely cost and how long it would take :) and right now - is nothing more than a thought experiement

Quote from: - Fezcat -;789164just to point out I\'m Definitely going for it.

Fixed that for you ;P

You\'re a poo!

Muahahaha!!! Do it though, seriously, that\'d be awesome.

I dont doubt it but as above, theres no point putting a great lump of my time and money into something if I cant do what I want with it lol.

Anyway - Less about the "omg do you know what you\'re getting into" and more about my initial question please :)

one more thing for ya dude. learn to weld and fab metal. if you can learn the basics in your spare time then it will cut costs as to what you can do yourself when modifying the shell/firewall to get the engine in.

then anything your unsure of being structurally unsound all you need to do is post a few pics and ask advice.

Welding is on my list of things to get better at - right now my welds look like solid chickenpoop mixed with entrails.

Fezcat mate Thumbs up and you should do it. Its going to be a fun and I am sure you would enjoy it a-lot. I wish I had known your plans in advance, I would have helped you a-lot with parts :(. I would like to suggest that your plans are realistic and you can get what you want out of your four rotor. However, as Adam suggested, speak with Pip, he is only ONE in the UK who built four rotor engine and actually "got it work perfectly". The guy he did the work for is known here as Jantore (If I am not mistaken, he actually drove his 4 Rotor Fd back from Pip\'s garage to Norway).

Do it!!

Wishing you luck with your adventure (you never know, I may join you half way loll)

Cheers
Mir

Quote from: Mir;789181Fezcat mate Thumbs up and you should do it.

Even Mir thinks it\'s a good idea. GO GO GO :Laugh

You\'re actually insatiable, like that little creature on my right shoulder dressed like an angel, only what it doesnt realise is I saw the red underneath its gown lol!

Mir - thanks dude :) It would be cool to do it, I guess people in the US do it so why cant we? lol

Anyway - more homework to be done still methinks :)

Quote from: - Fezcat -;789228Mir - thanks dude :) It would be cool to do it, I guess people in the US do it so why cant we? lol

Off-course mate. Why not! I always loved 4 Rotor with twin turbo-daily driver :eek:. In Australia there is only one guy who is running a four Rotor twin turbo as a daily driver. He is on a Motec Forum and I did speak with him once.

I can\'t see what would stop you from achieving your aim?? But, I would "suggest" speak with Pip on this subject before you go outright on this. The man knows his stuff but the only problem with Pip is that he is very very very Busy man :Ladys-man

Let me know if you need any help. I will be sending some housings next week for PP modification. So, if you need info regarding them, just PM me.

Best of Luck mate

Mir

Cheers dude :) If/when you get them done, I wonder If I could sneakily take some measurements ;) Then Id be able to have a go with my friend and DIY our own :D

As I said, got some more homework and a load of research to do before I spend any money, I want to be able to put a price on the cost for milling the E-Shaft and doing our own housings at least before I put big money down.

Oh and its definitely going to be N/A :) I would be MORE than happy with 500bhp, i know you\'re after 1000bhp but thats waaaaaay too much for me :D 500bhp in a car that weighs relatively little (id want to lighten the shell) for about ~400bhp/ton +
 
Muahahahah my ridiculously circuitous plan is one quarter complete :D

Read this, homemade 4 rotor built engine going in a Volvo.

http://www.ausrotary.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=188420

I honestly think it would be more cost effective time reduced to buy the 4rotor shaft kit from NZ or US. They are a short rotor kit using normal centre plates as opposed to using 2 thick 20b centre plates like the Mazda 787b engine used.

Read the thread in the link and see what you think, that guy us awesome in design and has all ready built his e shaft!!

Quote from: Lacey;789103which I doubt you would be able to do on a 4rotor without running intensely and dangerously on the lean side of mixture for idle....

Hahahaha - I love it - \'Dangerously lean idle\'! wtf crack have you been smokin?

This cracks me up - old Fezcat is asking a serious question and the person posting the most replies knows the least about it!

Anyways, the Kiwi\'s beat you to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsZQX2tzNhI

Buy this car - it is for sale at the moment - import it - job done.

Ramon :) Cheers dude, I appreciate lacey\'s posts actually, she\'s been good for bouncing ideas back in my head. Its often the questions asked by people who dont nessecarily know everything, that are the questions that need to be asked :)

Grant - Ill have a peer dude :)

The kiwi shaft kit looks like it would be about £6k landed/tax paid/to my doorstep - If we can do our own similar shaft for less than that, hence why I want to be able to put a price on it before any money is put in.

Again - Not definitely doing anything, just throwing about the pro\'s and cons about in my head while bouncing ideas and opinions off one another :)

Quote from: RamoNZ;789241Hahahaha - I love it - \'Dangerously lean idle\'! wtf crack have you been smokin?

This cracks me up - old Fezcat is asking a serious question and the person posting the most replies knows the least about it!

Anyways, the Kiwi\'s beat you to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsZQX2tzNhI

Buy this car - it is for sale at the moment - import it - job done.

Is that the FOURRE rotor car?

I can find another 4 rotor thread from rx7 club too if you want? That build is full race car setup being built by a rotary garage rather than home made. Again using the \'short\' block method whereas tagheim has designed his copying mazdas design.

A 4 rotor can also be made by conjoined 13Bs, think of it as a big bang enine, wouldn\'t sound the same as the the lemans car though

Quote from: Lacey;789150With the emissions you could always just have an air pump blow \'fresh\' air straight into the exhaust to screw with the burned mixture during MOT\'s and emissions tests, thus give the illusion of a cleaner burn that has more \'fresh\' air than fuel.....

This one is even better! Ha, I wish the car manufacturers had thought of that and I wouldn\'t have to pay so much company car tax - you\'d think with all that money and engineering resource they would have thought of that :2Confused

I think we should create a special section called \'Rotary mis-info and turd breath posts\' and make it members only so the poor general public wouldn\'t stumble across it.

I\'m going to leave this thread now but I\'ll keep my eyes peeled for actual build thread - that I would like to see. A 4 rotor anything would be awesome to see this side of the ocean.

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;789238Read this, homemade 4 rotor built engine going in a Volvo.

http://www.ausrotary.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=188420

That is awesome - I wonder if he would let me buy his design :D lol It would safe a :censored::censored::censored::censored:load of work lol!

RamoNz And if there was such a section, your post would have gone straight into it.:spank:reallymad:p:rollin:D:Nono!:Thumbs-up

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;789250RamoNz And if there was such a section, your post would have gone straight into it.:spank:reallymad:p:rollin:D:Nono!:Thumbs-up

QFT :flamed

Quote from: - Fezcat -;789248That is awesome - I wonder if he would let me buy his design :D lol It would safe a :censored::censored::censored::censored:load of work lol!

Yep. He is going to be doing more work on it this winter now as he has been having fun during the summer. PM him on ausrotary and see if he replies. If you have the cash you could go visit him and see his work.

Can we take it easy guys!!! I can see that this thread is going off the topic.. Please hold your guns and lets talk about my favourite topic "A Four Rotor FD"..

Please :)

Quote from: Mir;789253Can we take it easy guys!!! I can see that this thread is going off the topic.. Please hold your guns and lets talk about my favourite topic "A Four Rotor FD"..

Please :)

It\'s my favourite topic too. You and fezcat should give me the cash and I will build a 4rotor for you to share and drool at!!

Now where\'s my lotto tickets?!

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;789250RamoNz And if there was such a section, your post would have gone straight into it.:spank:reallymad:p:rollin:D:Nono!:Thumbs-up

Mate half of these posts would be in the turd bin then - I just like to state the obvious :D :Laugh :chat

And yes, that was the FOURRE car, yours for a trifling NZ$48,000, or roughly half that in ££, not bad for a car that has run 10.66 with just a street port. (9.98 on the PP I believe). Gotta say though, anyone who attempts a 4 rotor build should be commended - but the results of the FOURRE car show that you don\'t need crazy porting to get the power, just a solid engine and good mapping. There is no reason that engine shouldn\'t be any less reliable than a stock FD engine, possibly more so as there are no turbos to worry about.

£25k including shipping, which includes the FD means the engine itself will only really set you back £18k? Not sure how much you budgeted to spend, but you would learn an awful lot just from pulling the car apart to see what they did.

:3gears-rh

Totally get what you\'re saying but im a massive believer in "Built Not Bought"

It wouldnt be for internet points or people getting hard over the car at shows etc - I love mechanical thing and engineering and everything unique and perfectly precision about engineering. It literally would be just for my own challenge, personal satisfaction and the sound :)

again want to stress - not doing anything yet, just a thought experiement

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;789257It\'s my favourite topic too. You and  fezcat should give me the cash and I will build a 4rotor for you to  share and drool at!!

Now where\'s my lotto tickets?!

Haha ;) I like my money in my hands - not other peoples :p


back on topic

im still looking for the answers to my initial question, would it be possible to MOT one and drive as a roadcar (not driveability but legally)

For the emissions, could you not just shut down 2 of the rotors like the Crysler 300C\'s V8, it shuts down 4 cylinders on cruise, I can\'t shut down 1 rotor on a 13B as it would be unbalanced, but you might be able to get away with shutting down rotors say 2 and 3 and the engine would still run balanced.

Just add an electric air pump, my crazy eye stinging rich FC with no cat but air pump puts out 0.18% CO, which would pass a cat test, just put in a large enough air pump (like all the big chevy V8s) and it will pass :)

re - shutting down 2 rotors, I did consider that - my concerns would be over excessive damage/wear due to imbalance (i dont know if it would be or not) and the other being that to get it working would be :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: expensive lol, I know building one wouldnt be cheap but spending more money where you dont have to is daft if you know what I mean.

Big airpump might be a good idea, just take it off between MOT\'s lol

I apparently cant say FDUK? with an "Ing" on the end :confused:

Quote from: - Fezcat -;789282re - shutting down 2 rotors, I did consider that - my concerns would be over excessive damage/wear due to imbalance (i dont know if it would be or not) and the other being that to get it working would be :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: expensive lol, I know building one wouldnt be cheap but spending more money where you dont have to is daft if you know what I mean.

Big airpump might be a good idea, just take it off between MOT\'s lol

You wouldn\'t really need to take it off, it won\'t be as big as the mid 80s mechanical sort lol just need an exhaust safe check valve and a pump :)

Just run it on all 4 rotors, they will have decent tested injectors so the idle should be fine - with regards to the emissions, I did ask about idle being unstable on the bridgeported engine to see if that would be an issue, apparently as long as it holds steady at a certain RPM its fine - mine will hold steady in the rpm band where the feedback loop is in operation and will be holding at exactly 14.7:1 AFR like it does on cruise :D

ignoring the monstrosity of the kit that got put on this... Its all about this sound.

shutting 2 rotors down would be daft, running PPs you most certainly are going to be 100% pre mixing oil in your fuel tank. so shutting down 2 rotors would mean your seals running dry, getting hot, then once you inject fuel bang!!!
 
pistons can get away with it because their oil feed delivery is much different to a rotors and is always lubed up. from the bottom!!! lol.
 
take the car to my MOT friend, he will pass it for you!! even if the car is required to have an emmissions test there is always a crappy punto that can be parked close by for the emmissions.
 
you could always try running a cat? easiest option really. RICE Racing in Ozzy land runs one on his street FD who is pushing 2.0 bar of boost through his car and i quote "you could breathe the air coming out of the exhaust" on his car. you would just have to think about how big your P ports and exhaust ports are going to be for the amount overlap in the engine and how much fire you are going to shoot down the exhaust which may kill the catalyst.
 
for a view of fire breathing 4rotor, youtube mad mikes drift machine. that thing is a flame thrower when hes off the throttle

Quote from: - Fezcat -;789288ignoring the monstrosity of the kit that got put on this... Its all about this sound.
 

i do believe the scoot 4rotor was 12A based not 13B based

Really? Tbh they sound the same so that was a 24a then? :)

Argh I keep going off topic :( - Is there a Quad rotor appreciation thread?

this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfl05j82vpE

Quote from: - Fezcat -;789292Really? Tbh they sound the same so that was a 24a then? :)
 
Argh I keep going off topic :( - Is there a Quad rotor appreciation thread?

someone did an 18A too, and put it into a corolla, i spend too much time on youtube and the internet, if you name it iv probably seen/read about it. :Talking1:Talking1

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;789289shutting 2 rotors down would be daft, running PPs you most certainly are going to be 100% pre mixing oil in your fuel tank. so shutting down 2 rotors would mean your seals running dry, getting hot, then once you inject fuel bang!!!
 
pistons can get away with it because their oil feed delivery is much different to a rotors and is always lubed up. from the bottom!!! lol.
 
take the car to my MOT friend, he will pass it for you!! even if the car is required to have an emmissions test there is always a crappy punto that can be parked close by for the emmissions.
 
you could always try running a cat? easiest option really. RICE Racing in Ozzy land runs one on his street FD who is pushing 2.0 bar of boost through his car and i quote "you could breathe the air coming out of the exhaust" on his car. you would just have to think about how big your P ports and exhaust ports are going to be for the amount overlap in the engine and how much fire you are going to shoot down the exhaust which may kill the catalyst.
 
for a view of fire breathing 4rotor, youtube mad mikes drift machine. that thing is a flame thrower when hes off the throttle

Why wouldn\'t you still be running the OMP though?

this too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Geepgs7ILcM&feature=related

Quote from: m1tch;789296Why wouldn\'t you still be running the OMP though?

you would trust your OMP on your £25,000-30,000 engine?? regardless of the ECU being able to control it like the Haltechs can do.

I personally would also try some NA style water injection, you dont get the benefits like you with a turbo WI system but would be good for power hunting, however thats another thread and hole different giant bag of worms to look into.

Before any1 slates me, no i dont know what im talking about, its just internet bull thats regurgitating out of my fingers through the keyboard.

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;789303Before any1 slates me, no i dont know what im talking about, its just internet bull thats regurgitating out of my fingers through the keyboard.

Calm down grant, lmao

Carl Heyward is very knowledgeable in this area, may pay you to chat with him, I was looking at a big multiple rotor shaft he had made and it was bloody excellent.

Keith

All good ideas but - IF we build it - Im going to be keeping it a simple as possible, its got to be reasonably reliable so im not going to turbo it or fart about with any unique water injection systems, cool ideas though.

The only reason is I know that I couldnt afford it lol - I probably cant afford to do this but spread over a long enough time frame, I could and I think my grandad is game too lol.

Simple, Reliable and as tried and tested as you can get with a quad rotor - That would be the plan :).

Trind - I keep meaning to go down to see Carl even though I work relatively closeby I just never have the right time off from work! lol one day ill manage it - He\'s a top bloke from my experience with him and thats just from a couple of emails and a telephone call!

For noise you can fit those electric thingys, I will remember what they are called. My mate has them on his ford pop, cuts the noise down for mot or if you get pulled. Go in your exhaust . Valves thingys lol. Excellent bits of kit.

Keith

They didn\'t get the noise down to 96db!! Even through my iPhone it\'s louder than a jet taking off and I have the mute button on. Lmao.

Steve Garbutt had the turbo pp, it was LOUD!

Carl showed me how to quiet down a PP motor when my engine for the rx4 was going to be a PP. Would have got it down to 96db otlr there abouts. Ask and ye shall receive. Lol

Trind- woosar wooooosaaar. All calm now

Summit racing, electric exhaust cut outs.

You can fit those exhaust valves like Trind-FD suggests, you could get a diverter valve put in, diverts it to either a exhaust with loads of silencing for road use, or just a pipe out the side for drag use lol What would the car be used for? Might have an issue it its going to be on a track as they have noise restrictions.

Well "hypothetically" and if I ever built one (I keep stressing this point for a good reason)

It would be road legal, complete interior inside and used for drifting when I can get to track days - mainly driving about and scaring the FDUK out of 18 year old schoolgirls :)

Mine will be 100% road legal with complete interior, why don\'t you build a short block triple? Might be *slightly* cheaper, although you can buy quad rotor parts off the shelf.

triple has been done several times and doesnt sound remotely like a quad does. Because it poses much more of an engineering challenge for what I want and because I want to.

I hate doing things people have already done. Its boring, new things are cool :)

Im NOT doing anything right now, just bouncing ideas around and IF I did anything It would take at least 4 years!

easiest way would be to couple two 13b blocks:

Quote from: jackaleks;789441easiest way would be to couple two 13b blocks:

What\'s the expected longevity (engine life) and reliability on this method VS a genuine 4rotor block?

Saw that - The exhaust made me wince...

To be honest while I can see that ^ would be the easiest way, its halfarsed and for the money it would cost, wouldnt return what you wanted it to. It doesnt sound right either, the firing order will be wrong as well as a whole host of other things ..

Quote from: Lacey;789446What\'s the expected longevity (engine life) and reliability on this method VS a genuine 4rotor block?

Probably as good as any engine so long as it\'s built right

Pretty sure I read somewhere that P/P engines have an approx life/need a rebuild after 8-10k miles

I dread to think how often Mad Mike has to rebuild his :eek: The reality is that whichever way you look at it, its a racing engine, designed with performance in mind above longevity.

I always thought that a fair comparison would be a 26b alongside a V10 f1 engine - similar ish sort of thing.

Surely you\'d want it to last longer than an F1 engine?

Adam

Yeah! lol I just felt that was an adequate comparision :)

Quote from: - Fezcat -;789469Pretty sure I read somewhere that P/P engines have an approx life/need a rebuild after 8-10k miles

Any reference mate. I had a detailed chatt with Pip yesterday. He said it actually last longer and to quote him " 5 times longer than 20b" hence we agreed on our new adventure. So any info will be much appreciated.

Cheers
Mir

Internet bull:censored::censored::censored::censored: then by the sound of it?

http://www.mazdarotary.net/porting.htm

Though looking at this it looks like I was thinking of the Monster port more than the P/P

Pip reckons they last longer? Ill go with that then lol!

Yup this is what Pip reckons!!

Quote from: Mir;789485Yup this is what Pip reckons!!

Twin turbo 4rotor syed!! Can I come see it when the engine gets built over at pips? I\'m only an hours drive away

Yes Grant! You heard it right! It was Pips idea to go twin turbo. Spoke with Pip yesterday! Had a long chatt! Looking for a buyer now, who can buy my 20b! So lets hope! We get to where we want to!

Cheers
Mir

ugh so you\'re now going to be building one! You suck lol, Designs of the eccentric shaft please :D

It would save me a :censored::censored::censored::censored:load of work lol

Fezcat mate, I started on this project 8 months ago. Recently, we agreed to work on it! You can check my posts! Lollll

I will let you have an access to all the mods don\'t worry! It\'s just not as straight forward as it looks!! Loll

Cheers
Mir

Ah I know man :D

My basic plan would be to pikey a 20b shaft, stick it in cad, modify shorten it to use a 13b intermediate plate then design the rear end around a similar theme. Then cut the finished design out of billet.

My thoughts are concerning the central intermediate plate. I know its got to be modified to take a bearing to support the E shaft - what about stationary gears? :confused:

Quote from: Mir;789495Yes Grant! You heard it right! It was Pips idea to go twin turbo. Spoke with Pip yesterday! Had a long chatt! Looking for a buyer now, who can buy my 20b! So lets hope! We get to where we want to!

Cheers
Mir

I will give you £50 for it.

Mitch just bought it to my attention that rotaryart do 4 rotor E shafts...

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;789517I will give you £50 for it.

£54.93 and some skittles

Lacey and Grant! I am listening :) you guys can give me more Money as I guess, I would need alot more money later. Loll

waiting for the buyer as we speak! I have just lost interest in triples :(

cheers
Mir

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;789466Probably as good as any engine so long as it\'s built right

yep, i\'d have thought exactly the same as any two 13b lumps.

coupling engines has been done before, like on that Priapism thing. it is a proper bodge though...

did some checking up on the mot emissions side of things all it has to do is pass the emission test for which ever is older the car or the engine, so if its a brand new engine your building unless you can somehow get hold of documentation to prove to the tester that its older than what it is it will have to get tested at the limits for your particular age of car

Quote from: jackaleks;789549yep, i\'d have thought exactly the same as any two 13b lumps.

coupling engines has been done before, like on that Priapism thing. it is a proper bodge though...

I disagree. Joined engine have to be done just as precise and accurate as something built from scratch. Otherwise it just won\'t work.

Quote from: wolfie1;789566did some checking up on the mot emissions side of things all it has to do is pass the emission test for which ever is older the car or the engine, so if its a brand new engine your building unless you can somehow get hold of documentation to prove to the tester that its older than what it is it will have to get tested at the limits for your particular age of car

Well that\'s simple then. Just get the 13b lettering castings machined off and get R26B machined onto them that way you could tell them it\'s a 25 year old cars engine, like the one used in the le mans winning 787b!! ;)

Quote from: Mir;789547Lacey and Grant! I am listening :) you guys can give me more Money as I guess, I would need alot more money later. Loll

waiting for the buyer as we speak! I have just lost interest in triples :(

cheers
Mir

Start build thread. We want to know things like;
Gearbox
Diff
Cooling
Fuelling
Brakes
Parachute
Roll cage
Is your engine bay big enough
What turbos
What size PPs.? 50\'s 55\'s? (Millimetres)
Clutch

And I take it your going to use the kit from NZ? As pip used one of those previously did he not??

From my initial mockup measurements, the steering rack has got to forward and down by at least 2/3 inches

For an N/A screamer - My vague idea was

4 rotor crank designed properly
rx8 rotors (high comp)
obviously P/P
twin/triple plate clutch
tk0600 transmission - Or one of the HKS gearsets - both are horrendously expensive :( Tbh if the standard transmission can take it - Thats what ill keep :)

Not a clue where to go next, it\'ll need a hefty fuel system, and some fairly decent throttle bodies as well as ECU.

Id want to have the intake runners curved over so that I can keep a standard bonnet, so the engine would be mounted as low as possible :)

dont forget the flux capacitor

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;789617Start build thread. We want to know things like;
Gearbox
Diff
Cooling
Fuelling
Brakes
Parachute
Roll cage
Is your engine bay big enough
What turbos
What size PPs.? 50\'s 55\'s? (Millimetres)
Clutch

Ummmmm Grant you want to know it all. :D

So,
Gearbox would be T56 Megnum (Unless Pip decides otherwise).
Kazz 1.5 Super Q (for a time being-may go cobra Diff using Justin\'s invention)
I have 2 Mocal 25 Row Oil Coolers (Its more than likely that I would go Dry Sump)
I love in Tank pumps as the noise of the pumps, installed in the boot drives me crazy
Undecided about the brakes ?????
Don\'t Need a Parachute (Read Below)
My engine bay can easily have 5 Rotors if I want :D. This is because when I was installing my 20b, we pushed the engine backwards for weight distribution. Actually my 20b sits behind the steering rack as we speak and I still have considerable gap between the steering rack and the Engine. The handling of the car is unbelievable.

Clutch have to be my favourite AST Carbon Twin (Its is ideal for street)

To Sum up. I have all those thing you would need for 4 rotor. I have all the above except Brakes, parachute, and Dry Sump.

I have Motec Ecu which can run 4 Rotor
Brand new wiring loom, which can either run 4 or 3 Rotor
I bought a brand new Diff (mentioned above) which is currently on my car
My engine bay is a work of Art (I think).
I have a custom Sub frame (installed in my fd) which can suit the needs of 3 and 4 rotor engine.
I have modified my propshaft so its ready to take 4 rotor
Gearbox is not far off as 99 percent things are planed already

I can go on and on......:cheers

The idea is to produce a daily driver 4 Rotor hence I would not use a parachute and I will not remove an interior. It will be a street car but with an extra twist :Thumbs-up

Wish me luck

Mir

Mir - What modifications did you make to your front subframe? I was figuring without the UIM/LIM id be able to push the engine a good way back?

What modifications have you made to the powerplant frame/gearbox mounts?

I was thinking about T-56 or T55

Fezcat, its a custom Subframe-newly built sub-frame. I never modified the stock subframe. We have cut the firewall and pushed the engine back over 10mm. TK0, is good as well as HKS, but, as I said i want a street legal 4 rotor and these gearboxes are not ideal for street cars like mine. I use my car for weird reasons :)

Cheers

Pulling fit birds? :D

So an entirely custom subframe or you modified the standard one? I thought they used the TK0600 in Z06s or am i totally wrong lol

Quote from: - Fezcat -;789691Pulling fit birds? :D

So an entirely custom subframe or you modified the standard one?

I have to be honest, I always pull a bird when I am in my fd lolllll (Joking) But believe me, Birds love the look of Fds.............I can say alot on this topic but I guess I will be told off ;)

Yes "an entire custom subframe" No modification to the standard one. The standard one from my car went to the bin. :rollin

Cheers
Mir

SHOW ME!!!! :p

What sort of torque are you aiming for with the TT I guess you\'re going for 1000bhp?

Or is it secret? :p

Tbh for n/a 500bhp i would have thouoght the standard trans should cope fine?

Yes Fezcat, I am going for 1000HP. Haven\'t given much thought to the torque related issues as its the beginning of a new world so kinda learning day by day. Nothing is secrete mate. Yes, you would be fine with the Standard Trans, 500 N.A at the fly is not really a big thing for stock parts.

Cheers
Mir

Quote from: Mir;789688Ummmmm Grant you want to know it all. :D

So,
Gearbox would be T56 Megnum (Unless Pip decides otherwise).
Kazz 1.5 Super Q (for a time being-may go cobra Diff using Justin\'s invention)
I have 2 Mocal 25 Row Oil Coolers (Its more than likely that I would go Dry Sump)
I love in Tank pumps as the noise of the pumps, installed in the boot drives me crazy
Undecided about the brakes ?????
Don\'t Need a Parachute (Read Below)
My engine bay can easily have 5 Rotors if I want :D. This is because when I was installing my 20b, we pushed the engine backwards for weight distribution. Actually my 20b sits behind the steering rack as we speak and I still have considerable gap between the steering rack and the Engine. The handling of the car is unbelievable.

Clutch have to be my favourite AST Carbon Twin (Its is ideal for street)

To Sum up. I have all those thing you would need for 4 rotor. I have all the above except Brakes, parachute, and Dry Sump.

I have Motec Ecu which can run 4 Rotor
Brand new wiring loom, which can either run 4 or 3 Rotor
I bought a brand new Diff (mentioned above) which is currently on my car
My engine bay is a work of Art (I think).
I have a custom Sub frame (installed in my fd) which can suit the needs of 3 and 4 rotor engine.
I have modified my propshaft so its ready to take 4 rotor
Gearbox is not far off as 99 percent things are planed already

I can go on and on......:cheers

The idea is to produce a daily driver 4 Rotor hence I would not use a parachute and I will not remove an interior. It will be a street car but with an extra twist :Thumbs-up

Wish me luck

Mir

Are you sure the twin carbon clutch is up to the job? I would have said a triple plate is where you need to be at, especially with carbon.

The t56 should more than handle the torque I reckon. As you won\'t be revving the engine much higher than 8,500?

You should start a thread Mir just so I don\'t clutter up this thread with questions.

I take it fully balanced and lightened rotors?

And which 4 rotor kit are you using?

If you can get your hands on some 2nd hand bits then you could start drawing up the design for the crankshaft. The biggest issues are more to be about machining the lobes and getting the centres in the shaft to do this properly.

There is a cool autodesk free app that takes photographs and converts them into 3d data models (cloud models). You need a good CMM to measure up all the key parts too.

Shaun

Cool link :

http://labs.autodesk.com/utilities/photo_scene_editor/

Shaun

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;789740Are you sure the twin carbon clutch is up to the job? I would have said a triple plate is where you need to be at, especially with carbon.

The t56 should more than handle the torque I reckon. As you won\'t be revving the engine much higher than 8,500?

You should start a thread Mir just so I don\'t clutter up this thread with questions.

I take it fully balanced and lightened rotors?

And which 4 rotor kit are you using?

I am hoping that Clutch would not let go, but you are right triple is the way forward for me.

T56 will work well I think, but no final decisions have been made

Yes rotors will be fully balanced and lightened

Pip will decide on the Kit

Grant I would love to start a thread, but I can\'t unless I am 100000% sure that it is happening. You know small things can cause bigger delays! But I can assure you I will start a thread-not now, may be later :Ladys-man

Cheers
Mir

Quote from: shaunwil;789744If you can get your hands on some 2nd hand bits then you could start drawing up the design for the crankshaft. The biggest issues are more to be about machining the lobes and getting the centres in the shaft to do this properly.
 
There is a cool autodesk free app that takes photographs and converts them into 3d data models (cloud models). You need a good CMM to measure up all the key parts too.
 
Shaun

Im always on the lookout for a 20b crank to borrow, if even for a short while! that way we could start being able to put a cost on one.
 
I was speaking with my grandfather earlier about strenghths involved (he has 60 years of expert metallurgy experience as well as research into casting etc)
 
He suggested that it might be better to forge cast the shaft and then grind it down and polish it to the correct sizes.
 
I discussed the idea of machining the shaft from billet with my grandad - he seemed to think that this wouldnt be ideal or strong enough, that said he said he could get it machined for us for about £1000 - interesting.
 
Still its £1000 more than I want to spend :D
 
I think that RX8 rotors - lightened seem to be the best for a N/a build but ill have a ponder of that...
 
 
Anyway - My questions have mainly been answered :)

Another thought is to make your own billet by machining a die-set and making a drop forging. Still requires a whole lot of machining but you would get the grain structure correct to make the crank stronger. I would have thought £1000 worth of machining would be very good. Huge amount of programming and machine time.

I always wondered about making a modular design that would work from 2 rotor up to 6 rotor allowing the crank to be built up in different configurations. Would need gear cutting equipment but its all possible. You would need a bearing at every housing but on a custom motor you would want that anyway to reduce flex of the crank.

Joys of engineering :D

Shaun

Plus what I don\'t understand on the volvo thread is how he has heat treated his bearing surfaces ? You can vacuum harden certain steel but you still need to grind or superfinish bearing surfaces to stop them acting like a pump. He may centreless grind them at some point but it doesn\'t look like he will. The straightening he has sent it out for won\'t mean the bearing faces are ok, just the shaft is true (the heat treatment will have warped the crank).

Opps, before you ask I used to work for Volvo (originally Leyland Bus) machining stuff. They made a lot of the drive-train bits, unfortunately they made the cranks somewhere else !

Shaun

Forging is far superior in strength than machining. People have got so blinded by the words billet and cnc that they don\'t know the benefits of old tech. Lol.

Forging keeps the grain structure of what the object is forged into. Whereas cnc is cutting through the grain structure. A simple explanation but others that understand know what I\'m talking about.

For example a rolled thread on a bolt is far stronger than a cut thread on a bolt

That guy knows what he is doing and I\'m sure his bearing seats will be just fine

so realistically then forge casting and machining the shaft is going to be faaar superior in strenght, structure etc..
 
Shaun I totally see what you\'re on about with the hardening on the lobe surfaces, im sure that there must be more work to be done on that shaft...

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;789764That guy knows what he is doing and I\'m sure his bearing seats will be just fine

I hope so, looks an awesome build. Thinking about it he did mention grinding in the soft stage so he may have sorted that problem out before heat treatment.

Always sticks in my mind we used to machine Flanges and if the bearing wasn\'t ground oil would spurt out in reverse regardless the turned finish.

Shaun

Quote from: - Fezcat -;789765so realistically then forge casting and machining the shaft is going to be faaar superior in strenght, structure etc..
 
Shaun I totally see what you\'re on about with the hardening on the lobe surfaces, im sure that there must be more work to be done on that shaft...

I hope so. It was always the thing I couldn\'t get my head round. On a shaft you reuse the centres for all the operations, rough cut, finish cut, then final grinding and honing / superfinishing. Keeps things consistent. The Boring takes the centres out of the picture.

Did think about induction hardening all the bearing surfaces to only harden the bearing surfaces with a case hardening and then bore the hole at then end, but it depends if the bore needs to be hardened too.

Shaun

Not sure what business he is in so he may have something like this :



Shaun

What about running two exhausts? then you can run slightly smaller Diameter pipes and quite a few more silencers.

I was under the impression that proper silencers shouldn\'t restrict flow?

Though now you\'ll have the problem of where to put them.

Also you could get those dolphin tips that just point downwards, I heard they help quite a bit

Quote from: jackaleks;789441easiest way would be to couple two 13b blocks:

Correct me if I\'m wrong but that clip shows 2 13B\'s mated together by a 20B thick center plate iron.
Which, in theorie, makes perfect sense. You would just need 2 13B exc. shafts with machined matching ends...

firing order wouldnt be right iirc, firing order for the 26b (to make that sound ;) ) is 1/3/2/4
 
lobe phases as follows
 
L1 0° (TDC)
L3 90°
L2 180°
L4 270°
 
In my head, coupling two together cant match this? or can it?

Not too sure, you could offset the cranks by 90deg to get those angles. Would fire 1,3,2,4 possibly ??

Shaun

Could you set a 2nd crank angle sensor at 90deg and run it on 2 PFC\'s ???

Shaun

Interesting idea dude, but i really dont like bodge - If I do something, it would be done properly!

Stick it on a LinkECU G4 Extreme, supposed to be good for a 4 Rotor !

Shaun

Thinking about it the Quad 12a of Re-A was done with 2 PFCs if I can remember rightly !

Shaun

you\'re a mod - please can we be allowed to edit our posts?! lol

Ghetto fab 26B e-shaft :)

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l49/m1tch_2006/1223005652_0a53509908.jpg)
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l49/m1tch_2006/1223005646_4cfd44737f.jpg)
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l49/m1tch_2006/1223005630_af29a5a07e.jpg)

Wasn\'t that going into a 1st gen build on rx7 club ?

Shaun

Quote from: - Fezcat -;789953you\'re a mod - please can we be allowed to edit our posts?! lol

PM me which you want editing. You can edit after a short time but only mods have full access to edit posts.

Shaun

Shaun - dont worry dude :)

Mitch - cool shaft, but its totally not right. The correct 26b shaft lobes 2 and 3 should be 180 degress opposed, lobes 1 and 4 should be 180 opposed  but a further 90 degrees around the shaft.

(http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs132.snc3/17977_413410230496_634525496_10771049_1820407_n.jpg)

Isn\'t the Ghetto build on rx7club have all the timings in it somewhere ?

Shaun

Quote from: - Fezcat -;790032Shaun - dont worry dude :)

Mitch - cool shaft, but its totally not right. The correct 26b shaft lobes 2 and 3 should be 180 degress opposed, lobes 1 and 4 should be 180 opposed  but a further 90 degrees around the shaft.

(http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs132.snc3/17977_413410230496_634525496_10771049_1820407_n.jpg)

Yeah but its got a join the middle, so as long as the number of splines is divisible by 4 you should be able to clock it 90deg to get the right firing order.

Nope - the middle two rotors lobes in the 26b above are 180 degrees opposed with the other lobes at right angles to that.

You couldnt join two 13b shafts to make that shape.

Ok, another good read :

http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=638177

Shaun

Quote from: - Fezcat -;790274Nope - the middle two rotors lobes in the 26b above are 180 degrees opposed with the other lobes at right angles to that.

You couldnt join two 13b shafts to make that shape.

correct me if I\'m wrong but you\'re contradicting yourself

in one post you\'re saying L3 90°  L2 180°
and then in another you are saying Lobe 2 and 3 are 180 degrees opposed
if L2 IS at 180 then L3 would be at 0, so either the specs you\'ve written out are incorrect or that 2 and 3 are at 180 from each other is wrong

the firing order 1-3-2-4 makes the most sense from a balance perspective so the ghetto shaft bit one of them rotated 90 would give you that

Bugger - I wasnt reading what I was typing at all :( Im at work now until the morning, Doubt ill have a chance to type out a detailed correction of my idiocy.

Ill write one in t\'mornin

Quote from: - Fezcat -;790274Nope - the middle two rotors lobes in the 26b above are 180 degrees opposed with the other lobes at right angles to that.

You couldnt join two 13b shafts to make that shape.

So the firing order is 1-2-4-3

1 0
2 90deg
3 270deg
4 180

Or 1-3-4-2

1 0deg
2 270deg
3 90deg
4 180deg