Mazda Rotary Club

How many people are running PP\'s? Turbo or na? as I have only come across a few.
1, kevs 20b PP TT( 2x gt40\'s)
2, steve g 13b PP gt42(now sold)
3, chaz\'s rx3 race car 13b PP carb\'d
4, matts 20b PP rx7 built by pip

I wonder why many other people don\'t run them? Correct me if I\'m wrong but there isn\'t any of the guys in the hks drag series running PP\'s?

Chris impey is running semi PP\'s but that doesn\'t count as a PP in my eyes.

As I have gone from running standard ports to a large street port in my FD,, and now a full bridge going in the rx4, the next step for me once I have had fun with the rx4 is to go for either a monster port (highly unlikely as they shake cars to bits) or a PP. With a huge turbo.

What I\'m thinking now is that people will say engine life is reduced because off the PP\'s but how many miles a year do we actually do in our rotaries? Not many sothat can\'t be the issue why not many people have them?

matt isn\'t pp any more, he has gone side port i think?? said that the fuel was stupid on it.

I always thought PP was bloody expensive?

I think Mir seems to have swapped engines with Matt?

What\'s the standard 13b like being PP\'d and N/A as well? From how I was explained it, the porting (ranging from smallest port upgrade to peripheral at the top?) change the air flow and air volume for the cycle, which changes the power curve and lowers the low-band power in exchange of upping the high-band power a fair bit. Is that right? If so, would that not make an N/A massively underpowered and considerably slow in the low-down rev range?

A 13b PP would be anything up to 320fwhp depending on the size of the port, especially with carls PP\'s. The power band is move further up the rev range, 6-10,000 rpm but that doesn\'t mean it has zero power below that.

However stick a turbo on that and you will get more power across the range and not even have to rev it to 10,000 thus reducing the wear on the engine.

I think I was one of the lucky ones to ride in steves car when he had the PP turbo in it, all I can say is there was NO lag on a gt42 turbo!!!

Quote from: - Fezcat -;786980I always thought PP was bloody expensive?

I think Mir seems to have swapped engines with Matt?

I can\'t see it being that much more expensive than anythin else as the engine, in essence is simpler with far less bits bolted too it??

I was just wondering about the practicality and the power delivery curve on PP\'ing an N/A engine and how dramatically it would reduce the low-band power in comparison with stock, and how much the upper-band gain would be.

The pp rev range comes in very high. Noise is also an issue for race applications. Final drive ratio may have to be altered. All that said, I have sink pp inserts on the bench along with a good high compression 6 port awaiting the conversion.

Quote from: kiwimazda;786990All that said, I have sink pp inserts on the bench along with a good high compression 6 port awaiting the conversion.

Oooooooooh, you\'ll really have to let me know how that goes!! I\'ve been curious about going along that route for a while since the EGI will be coming up to \'rebuild due\' in the next X000 miles, and was debating getting some work on the housings/plates done while it\'s apart, and getting it ported, probably PP\'d, then starting up a savings fund for a Rotrex or something similar. once I\'m used to the power of it after the build.

Trying to be sensible with it, and the EGI is the first RWD car I\'ve owned, so would like to get used to the stock power first and then go up in suitable increments, not just start off at stock and then ramp it up to it\'s limits all in one go and then be scared of driving it in case I screw up.

A rotted supercharger on a PP? Now that would be interesting.

the world needs more blown rotaries!
 
 
...i mean, supercharged rotaries.

Good interesting, or "waiting for it to **** a brick" interesting? :p

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;786987I can\'t see it being that much more expensive than anythin else as the engine, in essence is simpler with far less bits bolted too it??

He was getting 4mpg on track and 8mpg on the road with the PP setup

Now with the side ported 20b he is getting double that easily. I know that mpg really should not matter in a sports car, but driving too and from events must have have cost a fortune. plus on track it must have been munching fuel.

Quote from: rx7boy;787003He was getting 4mpg on track and 8mpg on the road with the PP setup

I see no problem here! :p

(http://www.rx7club.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=1310940)

mine will be ready in a couple of weeks;);)...a POWERGAINS PP witha twist!!!!...watch this space!!!:burnout

I was actually referring to build cost. But I can see your point with the fuel. However any self respecting rotor head cannot complain about mpg no matter what shape or form the ports are. ;)

Matts car was too quiet for a 3 rotor PP anyway, maybe he is best off with the side ports.

I bet it cost him more to convert to a side port from a PP than it would to fill the fuel tank up a few times? Lmao

Quote from: Ed_RX7;787005mine will be ready in a couple of weeks;);)...a POWERGAINS PP witha twist!!!!...watch this space!!!:burnout

A twist? How big are your PP\'s?

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;787006However any self respecting rotor head cannot complain about mpg no matter what shape or form the ports are. ;)

I\'m fully prepared to get no more than 16mpg on a good day from my stock EGI since I have a heavy right foot and like to hoof it and have fun when I drive! :D

If you ain\'t driving with a grin you ain\'t doin\' it right! :Laugh

Quote from: Lacey;786997Good interesting, or "waiting for it to **** a brick" interesting? :p

Superchargers are very awesome on rotaries. Seen a couple of the ozzies cars with them on. I meant interesting as I. ThAt a supercharger is  more for low end grunt, instant power over a laggy turbo so you would in theory increase the power band of the PP and make it more driveable around town in my eyes. You would just have to get one of the right size that didn\'t run out of puff towards 8,000 rpm

Quote from: Lacey;787010I\'m fully prepared to get no more than 16mpg on a good day from my stock EGI since I have a heavy right foot and like to hoof it and have fun when I drive! :D

If you ain\'t driving with a grin you ain\'t doin\' it right! :Laugh

Exactly, I don\'t car what the mpg so long as I have fun. And embarrass a few people along the way.

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;787009A twist? How big are your PP\'s?

:yes:yes:yes now thats the question:yes:yes:yes

All i know is they are bigger than revolutions ones

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;787006Matts car was too quiet for a 3 rotor PP anyway, maybe he is best off with the side ports.

Again this is purely a guess, but I think he may have swapped engines with Mir - Since Mir now has a 20b P/P in the works and matts engine looks just like Mir\'s did...

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;787011Superchargers are very awesome on rotaries. Seen a couple of the ozzies cars with them on. I meant interesting as I. ThAt a supercharger is  more for low end grunt, instant power over a laggy turbo so you would in theory increase the power band of the PP and make it more driveable around town in my eyes. You would just have to get one of the right size that didn\'t run out of puff towards 8,000 rpm

Ahhhhhh, I see! Yeah I was looking at one of Rotrex\' more substantial superchargers, seeing as it\'s belt driven it\'s lagless (virtually) and compliments the lack of low end power that comes with a PP. I;ve seen a couple of FC\'s with a screw-type bolted on the top and they\'ve had to cut the bonnet open to fit it and it just looks ugly, I;d like something under the bonnet, hidden and out of view, to give somewhat of a surprise than being obviously in-your-face blown and spoiling the surprise of it.

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;787013Exactly, I don\'t car what the mpg so long as I have fun. And embarrass a few people along the way.

Exactly!! If your sports car doesn\'t put a grin on the face, what the hell have you bought it for?? :Snoring

Quote from: - Fezcat -;787015Again this is purely a guess, but I think he may have swapped engines with Mir - Since Mir now has a 20b P/P in the works and matts engine looks just like Mir\'s did...

Wait so after syed saying he doesnt like PP\'s he could well have a PP turbo in the works?

Well that is the way I would have gone to gain the magical 1,000hp he after. Hope he\'s prepared for some massive noise then!

says so in his sig :)

Quote from: Lacey;787016Ahhhhhh, I see! Yeah I was looking at one of Rotrex\' more substantial superchargers, seeing as it\'s belt driven it\'s lagless (virtually) and compliments the lack of low end power that comes with a PP. I;ve seen a couple of FC\'s with a screw-type bolted on the top and they\'ve had to cut the bonnet open to fit it and it just looks ugly, I;d like something under the bonnet, hidden and out of view, to give somewhat of a surprise than being obviously in-your-face blown and spoiling the surprise of it.



Exactly!! If your sports car doesn\'t put a grin on the face, what the hell have you bought it for?? :Snoring

Just thinking here, I get banzai magazine every month and one of the writers has super charged his civic type R, with a rotrex supercharger. So if you could find which one they have used on that it should be more than ample enough to keep up with the revs of the rotary and you won\'t have to worry about all that heat that normally comes with a turbo!!

And it will fit under the bonnet as they are a Paxton supercharger( basically half a turbo but belt driven and geared properly) as opposed to the screw type that is big and bulky and would have to sit on top of the engine.

With a Paxton you can also run through a small intercooler the keep air temps lower. Or dont bother and just Inject water straight Into your TB?

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;787020Just thinking here, I get banzai magazine every month and one of the writers has super charged his civic type R, with a rotrex supercharger. So if you could find which one they have used on that it should be more than ample enough to keep up with the revs of the rotary and you won\'t have to worry about all that heat that normally comes with a turbo!!

And it will fit under the bonnet as they are a Paxton supercharger( basically half a turbo but belt driven and geared properly) as opposed to the screw type that is big and bulky and would have to sit on top of the engine.

With a Paxton you can also run through a small intercooler the keep air temps lower. Or dont bother and just Inject water straight Into your TB?

Yeah that\'s what I was thinking, as it\'s belt driven it doesn\'t matter on size as there\'s no spool period, so theoretically I can just fit the biggest one I can squeeze under the bonnet and run with it (along with a ton of other stuff like uprated injectors, new ecu, 3rd fuel rail etc etc etc), but I can just fit the biggest one I can squeeze under there and just set the boost accordingly.

As for intercooler, I already have a T-II bonnet so have the correct setup to just dump one straight on with effective results. The turbo-type supercharger still do heat up because compressing air will raise the temperature of it, but not quite as dramatyically as a turbo since it\'s not exhaust driven so not heat transferral from the outlet side effecting the temps.

But yeah, setup I\'m aiming for is a Rotrex (Or any Paxton style) supercharger and intercooler in the standard place with uprated fuelling, intercooler and a rebuild on PP\'s, should make for an interesting EGI! :Laugh

Quote from: Lacey;787023Yeah that\'s what I was thinking, as it\'s belt driven it doesn\'t matter on size as there\'s no spool period

centrifugal superchargers (i.e. Rotrex) are basically belt driven turbos and have the same boost delivery, i.e. it gradually increases. obviously there\'s no boost threshold so you get positive boost quicker than a turbo, but compared to a roots or twin screw which will delivery full boost near instantaneously.
 
you want one of these babies!
 
(http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/images/productimages/rotors.gif)
 
whipple twin screw!

Lacey if your running pps then you won\'t need a third fuel rail as your throttle bodies should have the 2 injector holes each. So you can run 2x550 and 2x1680 injectors or which ever you fancy.

I have seen carls TB and they\'re prety awesome, I\'m sure if you rang him he would send you a picture of them, so you would know what your looking at for setup. You could do it through an apexi ecu too.

Quote from: jackaleks;787025centrifugal superchargers (i.e. Rotrex) are basically belt driven turbos and have the same boost delivery, i.e. it gradually increases. obviously there\'s no boost threshold so you get positive boost quicker than a turbo, but compared to a roots or twin screw which will delivery full boost near instantaneously.
 
you want one of these babies!
 
(http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/images/productimages/rotors.gif)
 
whipple twin screw!

And have a car that looks like this? No thanks, looks ugly as sin in my opinion, and I don\'t want my car looking so obviously blown.

(http://www.fastfoursforumscarclub.com/images/sevtopbig.jpg)

Not saying it\'s not cool, because it is, it looks awesome, but it\'s just not what I want for mine. Besides, I WANT a gradual power delivery, I don\'t want an instantly-on power delivery, I want my car to be easy to drive around town without having to ease the throttle 1MM at a time just to not be speeding.

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;787031Lacey if your running pps then you won\'t need a third fuel rail as your throttle bodies should have the 2 injector holes each. So you can run 2x550 and 2x1680 injectors or which ever you fancy.

I have seen carls TB and they\'re prety awesome, I\'m sure if you rang him he would send you a picture of them, so you would know what your looking at for setup. You could do it through an apexi ecu too.

Really? I would have thought a third fuel rail would be on the cards, but 550 primaries and 1680 secondaries does make more sense and will be cheaper to do than plumbing in a third rail.

I\'ve been to Carls before and seen his oldskool drag motor, DAMN that thing is mental!!!

What I like about the supercharger plan is that my OEM EGI air intake system that I\'m still spending hour upon hour polishing the crap out of will work with the supercharger (probably require some work on it though), so it\'s not something I\'ll have spent ages on only to be chucking later on in lieu of something else, since the throttle body on it is a nice size and it has the 4 injectors obviously already on the upper and lower.

Quote from: Lacey;787032And have a car that looks like this? No thanks, looks ugly as sin in my opinion, and I don\'t want my car looking so obviously blown.

(http://www.fastfoursforumscarclub.com/images/sevtopbig.jpg)

Pft thats half cooked

(http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5/train20blowerws8.jpg)

This is how to supercharge a car :god

I find it funny how tII owners try to keep specific parts specifically from their car for future modifications. Air filters, top mount IC too. Lol.

A third fuel rail wouldn\'t be needed unless going for massive power.

You can also move around the hp and increase the torqueof a PP by increasing the length of the inlet tract. I also think you would struggle to keep the top mount IC because you have to build a plenum for collecting the air forced in by the SC

Quote from: - Fezcat -;787037Pft thats half cooked

(http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5/train20blowerws8.jpg)

This is how to supercharge a car :god

I have seen the YouTube video of that car! They actually managed a pass with it, it\'s a blower from a diesel train. They mounted it and blipped the throttle which lifted the wheel off the floor by 6" and blew both metal head gaskets! Now that some serious psi!!!!!

Haha yeah, the bloke stood there talking matter of fact about it :D

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;787039I find it funny how tII owners try to keep specific parts specifically from their car for future modifications. Air filters, top mount IC too. Lol.

A third fuel rail wouldn\'t be needed unless going for massive power.

You can also move around the hp and increase the torqueof a PP by increasing the length of the inlet tract. I also think you would struggle to keep the top mount IC because you have to build a plenum for collecting the air forced in by the SC

Haha, we probably have enough old bits lying around to built most of a T-II from scratch between us (Prof and I) XD

Nah, not going for massive power, driveability would be nice so I\'m only really aiming at about 350ish hp. Once I\'m there I\'l probably get bored after a while and go for more, but that\'s my current goal. PP\'s and a Centrifugal blow running middle PSI\'s I\'m hoping will be in the mid 300 mark round about, and still be an easy car to drive.

Hmm, that\'s a fair point actually, may have to consider swapping in a T-II intake so that it has a collection for the cold air feed from the TMIC, hadn\'t actually thought of that until now. But anyway, this is still at least a couple years off and plenty of time to consider all options ans figure out the most successful :)

It wouldn\'t be practical to try use any kind of Intake as it will become bulky and possibly restrictive, a plenum would have to be built for you.

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;787047It wouldn\'t be practical to try use any kind of Intake as it will become bulky and possibly restrictive, a plenum would have to be built for you.

I can hear that \'ka-ching\' noise echoing from some of the traders already. :p

Quote from: - Fezcat -;787043Haha yeah, the bloke stood there talking matter of fact about it :D

Very cool......

Quote from: Lacey;787048I can hear that \'ka-ching\' noise echoing from some of the traders already. :p

Ha yeh, don\'t want to put you off but your looking at custom stuff really. Just find yourself someone that\'s good with a tig welder and metal and your sorted. Or learn yourself?

Think I have answered my original question as to why most people don\'t run PP\'s, all the custom work I volved takes time and money if you don\'t know the right people to help build things.

Is there not any other people running PP\'s then? Other than the handful I have already listed, plus Ed and his new PP motor?

Quote from: Ed_RX7;787005mine will be ready in a couple of weeks;);)...a POWERGAINS PP witha twist!!!!...watch this space!!!:burnout

I already heard about it at rotorstock 8. ummmm Really looking forward to it...

:3gears-lh

Mir

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;787018Wait so after syed saying he doesnt like PP\'s he could well have a PP turbo in the works?

Well that is the way I would have gone to gain the magical 1,000hp he after. Hope he\'s prepared for some massive noise then!

Grant, its all in the pipeline. We are working on the paper at the moment. Soon, the action will start. :driving

Mir

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;787051Is there not any other people running PP\'s then? Other than the handful I have already listed, plus Ed and his new PP motor?

hes mentioned they are bigger than revolutions ports which were semi pp, so im guessing hes gone down the same route, maybe a large street port on the plates and small PPs on the housings.

Could be running them independantly so they open at higher rpm like i have seen before, or could be running them all the time, but its doubtful

I would have though he will be running JAY-TECH manifold like so

http://www.pro-jay.com/JAY-TECH-TWIN-TURBO-SEMI-INTAKE-MANIFOLD-JT-TTS.htm

Ye iv seen those before, there\'s a good thread on rx7 club of a 20b na with semi PP\'s achieving big hp. And the semi PP\'s are dragged open so to speak, by the engine as it gets to the higher rpms where the airflow is needed. He is currently working on some slide throttles as opposed to butterflies to gain back the loss of air flow from the drag on the butterfly.

20B PP turbo :)

http://www.streetfire.net/video/mps-mazda-rx7-3-rotor-20b-peripheral-port-turbo-w_39698.htm

http://www.streetfire.net/video/mps-3-rotor-tac-rev-test-with-low-boostmechanica_39579.htm

Quote from: turbotoaster;787061hes mentioned they are bigger than revolutions ports which were semi pp, so im guessing hes gone down the same route, maybe a large street port on the plates and small PPs on the housings.

Could be running them independantly so they open at higher rpm like i have seen before, or could be running them all the time, but its doubtful

I would have though he will be running JAY-TECH manifold like so

http://www.pro-jay.com/JAY-TECH-TWIN-TURBO-SEMI-INTAKE-MANIFOLD-JT-TTS.htm

all will be revealed...........wont be using anything like the above though;)

Quote from: Ed_RX7;787086all will be revealed...........wont be using anything like the above though;)

You minge teasing:censored:

Hahahahahahaha

Having had a 13b pp with gt42 in my car before, Even with the tubby disconnected it was full of awesomeness and made of win :god

I just couldn\'t keep up with the drivetrain costs so it was moved on :(

Quote from: steve garbutt;787122Having had a 13b pp with gt42 in my car before, Even with the tubby disconnected it was full of awesomeness and made of win :god

I just couldn\'t keep up with the drivetrain costs so it was moved on :(

Did you ever consider using a t56 gearbox like what they use when transplating a v8 into an FD?

I don\'t know what the gearing would have been like but I\'m sure there would have been enough torque in the engine to pull through those gears.

But to solve the gearing a diff ratio around 4.7 would have fixed the long range of the gears?

Something like this

http://m.rx7club.com/forum/showthread.php?t=905977&highlight=Howard+coleman

Not cheapest but seems like a good solution. All apart from swapping the rear iron on the engine to an auto one!! not so bad if you haven\'t built your engine already I suppose.

i did consider a number of options but like i say i couldn\'t keep up with putting that kind of money into my own car.

i would have loved to keep it cause with the gt42 on it felt like it was going to rip my armes off :InLove

Quote from: steve garbutt;787197i did consider a number of options but like i say i couldn\'t keep up with putting that kind of money into my own car.

Well if you want steve you can put that kind of money into my car?:Tongue1:Thumbs-up:chat

Quote from: steve garbutt;787122Having had a 13b pp with gt42 in my car before, Even with the tubby disconnected it was full of awesomeness and made of win :god

I just couldn\'t keep up with the drivetrain costs so it was moved on :(

what were you breaking...diffs or boxes...or both?

Quote from: Ed_RX7;787231what were you breaking...diffs or boxes...or both?

I believe it was clutches to start with

so no clutch could deal with the power?

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;787244I believe it was clutches to start with

He should have used OS Giken Clutches, me,James Willday and Rob all hold monster power

Quote from: Ed_RX7;787315so no clutch could deal with the power?

Hks twin plate clutch. Of which I now have one of them as steve had 2. One out of kevs cosmo, of which the clutch held out but the gears sheared on open header exhausts.

Good clutch in my eyes

Yep it was the clutch that kept letting go.
Managed to keep the clutch together as grant says with the hks twin but then the after killing 2 gearboxes at only .5 bar and the diff starting to sound like a can of marbles I decided I would end up spending more than I wanted to on this setup. So i moved on.
I decided to put the rx7 back to a street car and concentrate on restoring the rx3.

Brian Ellis used to run that HKS clutch as well he used to break driveline components.
I think the OS Giken clutches seem to be a better match on the FD.

Of course the standard Torsen diff will sound like marbles anything over 450 bhp they are marginal lol need a plated diff instead

Quote from: steve garbutt;787326Yep it was the clutch that kept letting go.
Managed to keep the clutch together as grant says with the hks twin but then the after killing 2 gearboxes at only .5 bar and the diff starting to sound like a can of marbles I decided I would end up spending more than I wanted to on this setup. So i moved on.
I decided to put the rx7 back to a street car and concentrate on restoring the rx3.

It would be nice to see the dyno print for this gearbox smashing monster.

Quote from: hayden;787373It would be nice to see the dyno print for this gearbox smashing monster.

Not all cars are mapped on dynos.

I do believe Ross used to map his car on the road? Correct me if I\'m wrong. And he still has the record for fastest street legal car and the highest terminal speed?

So from what a few people have said on here about fd boxes breaking it takes something near 600+bhp, so surely that would mean the car was near that power figure??

That or steve had gear boxes made from chocolate? But I doubt that?

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;787428So from what a few people have said on here about fd boxes breaking it takes something near 600+bhp, so surely that would mean the car was near that power figure??

Power doesn´t break gearboxes, torque does. Also where is peak torque located in powerband has some impact. Usually 3rd gear is what can´t hold, if you upgrade gears then casing of tranny will literally tear apart.
You can go with any power you want at 4th gear as its direct drive.

In regards of power, most optimistic situation would give just about 500 HP at 0.5 Bar

Quote from: hayden;787373It would be nice to see the dyno print for this gearbox smashing monster.

You won\'t. You will just have to take my word for it.

Orc 709 Ftw :d

Quote from: BlitzBoy;787362Brian Ellis used to run that HKS clutch as well he used to break driveline components.
I think the OS Giken clutches seem to be a better match on the FD.

Of course the standard Torsen diff will sound like marbles anything over 450 bhp they are marginal lol need a plated diff instead

Your probably right but unfortunately I never had chance to try much as it came apparent quite quickly that I would never be able to put the kind of money it demanded into it.

My whole drivetrain was completely stock so a whole lot of money was needed.

Just to put the records straight the 1st gb was a little problematic anyway but the second was a good gb but ended up mulled.

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;786947I wonder why many other people don\'t run them? Correct me if I\'m wrong but there isn\'t any of the guys in the hks drag series running PP\'s?

Chris impey is running semi PP\'s but that doesn\'t count as a PP in my eyes.

we don\'t run them because we haven\'t pushed the bounderies of the side ports, its not all about big holes :2Rolleyes

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;787428Not all cars are mapped on dynos.

I do believe Ross used to map his car on the road? Correct me if I\'m wrong. And he still has the record for fastest street legal car and the highest terminal speed?

So from what a few people have said on here about fd boxes breaking it takes something near 600+bhp, so surely that would mean the car was near that power figure??

That or steve had gear boxes made from chocolate? But I doubt that?

there are many factors that can contribute to breaking of transmission components from chassis bracing to power delivery. to quote a power figure and say it will break at that point is ridiculous.

Quote from: rbs14a;788090we don\'t run them because we haven\'t pushed the bounderies of the side ports, its not all about big holes :2Rolleyes

Considering that at least 6 cars in the world are running 13b engines and doing 6 second 1/4 miles it\'s clear that the boundaries of the 13b are not even remotely being got close to in this country let alone porting.

Did you mean to saying porting or were you comparing to 20b?!? You make it sound like these 9second cars are unported. Not sure if this were your intention. Some of the quicker ones are pp too arent they??
 
Also your statement doesnt bode well on you as a engine builder? Comes across as a bit of an own goal that does.

Quote from: rbs14a;788090we don\'t run them because we haven\'t pushed the bounderies of the side ports, its not all about big holes :2Rolleyes

I like big holes though ;)

there are many factors that can contribute to breaking of transmission components from chassis bracing to power delivery. to quote a power figure and say it will break at that point is ridiculous.

…...............

Quote from: HaywardRotary;788095Considering that at least 6 cars in the world are running 13b engines and doing 6 second 1/4 miles it\'s clear that the boundaries of the 13b are not even remotely being got close to in this country let alone porting.

we are all well aware of this carl.. be good to see some of your cars start doing some respectable times :3gears-rh

wtf is going on in this thread, seems like a lot of w illy waving to me. pp as a first start on the rotary ladder, cant be serious??

carl i think if you see your 13b porting way off the pace off oldone\'s? i cant remember what your 20b motor did in that FB, that time, im sure some one will remind me.

alfred beautiful words buddy

Yawn, why do I always see the the comments like the above whenever carl has posted on this site?!

Seriously guys, if carl was to drag race a car and beat all of your times and speeds you would all still come up with excuses to say he\'s still not doing it as good as others, such as oldone.

Things like "well your not using this" and "your cars much lighter than ours, so no wonder you were faster/better"

I\'m not wrong am I?

I\'m not causing arguements but come on guys this same crap is getting old.

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;788167Yawn, carl has posted on this site.

Seriously guys, if carl was to drag race a car and beat all of your times and speeds..

:rollin

No, but seriously, with all due respect Grant, there was a monsterous pile of mutton posted on the first 2 pages of this thread, but you have 1100 views and counting.
I\'d be grateful of the controversy.
Respeck.
Alf x

Back on topic please. PP I believe it was just to remind you all. :Thumbsup!

Ah, well, I suppose mutton is cheaper than lamb, after all :rollin

Sorry, what was the topic again?

Quote from: Lacey;787023Yeah that\'s what I was thinking, as it\'s belt driven it doesn\'t matter on size as there\'s no spool period, so theoretically I can just fit the biggest one I can squeeze under the bonnet and run with it (along with a ton of other stuff like uprated injectors, new ecu, 3rd fuel rail etc etc etc), but I can just fit the biggest one I can squeeze under there and just set the boost accordingly.

As for intercooler, I already have a T-II bonnet so have the correct setup to just dump one straight on with effective results. The turbo-type supercharger still do heat up because compressing air will raise the temperature of it, but not quite as dramatyically as a turbo since it\'s not exhaust driven so not heat transferral from the outlet side effecting the temps.

But yeah, setup I\'m aiming for is a Rotrex (Or any Paxton style) supercharger and intercooler in the standard place with uprated fuelling, intercooler and a rebuild on PP\'s, should make for an interesting EGI! :Laugh

Back on topic - this is what it\'s all about right here.

Ahh yeah, we were seeing how far to spread rotary manure across our beloved mrc

Quote from: Alfred;788170:rollin

No, but seriously, with all due respect Grant, there was a monsterous pile of mutton posted on the first 2 pages of this thread, but you have 1100 views and counting.
I\'d be grateful of the controversy.
Respeck.
Alf x

Oh say what you mean :Tongue1:rolleyes:

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;788167Seriously guys, if carl was to drag race a car and beat all of your times and speeds

errrrm Carl beat all our times drag racing!!!???, that will never happen :rollin:burnout :D:Ladys-man:InLove:cool:bandit:cheers

Quote from: BlitzBoy;788203errrrm Carl beat all our times drag racing!!!???, that will never happen :rollin:burnout :D:Ladys-man:InLove:cool:bandit:cheers

 
ill have to agree blitz, cant see it happening :Ladys-man
 
maybe this will get his arse into gear and get is race cars out there :3gears-lh

Quote from: Alfred;788170:rollin

No, but seriously, with all due respect Grant, there was a monsterous pile of mutton posted on the first 2 pages of this thread, but you have 1100 views and counting.
I\'d be grateful of the controversy.
Respeck.
Alf x

Well maybe if someone such as yourself would have posted something that looked like factual info and advice then there wouldn\'t have been so much crap on the 2 pages.

However you didn\'t so I had to use my knowledge and understanding of superchargers and pp rotaries to discuss with Lacey what she would be looking at for driveability and what would be involved in the work of doing a pp SC setup.

As for 1100 views, WOW, most of them will be from you guys hounding the one little post that Carl has made.

I was at Carls today, discussing my engine and drag racing of all things. So if you wait a little while and let me learn to drive up the strip properly I will be out racing you guys.

My aim is for a 10 second pass and to go off the clock of the rx4 which goes to 130mph.sadly not with a pp engine............. Just yet ;)

You go Grant ;)

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;788208Well maybe if someone such as yourself would have posted something that looked like factual info and advice then there wouldn\'t have been so much crap on the 2 pages.

However you didn\'t so I had to use my knowledge and understanding of superchargers and pp rotaries to discuss with Lacey what she would be looking at for driveability and what would be involved in the work of doing a pp SC setup.

As for 1100 views, WOW, most of them will be from you guys hounding the one little post that Carl has made.

I was at Carls today, discussing my engine and drag racing of all things. So if you wait a little while and let me learn to drive up the strip properly I will be out racing you guys.

My aim is for a 10 second pass and to go off the clock of the rx4 which goes to 130mph.sadly not with a pp engine............. Just yet ;)

really,after everything said about carl bashing your still hoping for a 10sec pass :rollin will your car go on a dyno?
i dont think carl thinks that quick, yet can build something that quick.

but good luck,

from a famous film "I said a ten-*second* car, not a ten-*minute* car."

Fair play to you Grant for sticking your head up and saying what you would like to do. Ambition and goals in life are good.

Quote from: B.Martin;788213You go Grant ;)

Abso-mutton-lutely. I would LOVE to see an RX4 make a 10sec pass in this country.
Best of luck with that.

I can\'t help thinging we should change the title of this thread to "who has the biggest testicles?"  :rollin

@Alfred - i was meerly adding fuel to the fire, i quite frankly couldn\'t give a rats ass which one of the members on here manages a 10 second pass and who is that 0.1 second slower. :spank

I retire from this thread :WaveBye

Best of luck from me too. But as far as I can see all you have is an unfinished RX-4 shell and no engine??? Be good to see Haywards make it into the 10s though. We need to take it to the fast piston boys as there numbers are increasing

Quote from: B.Martin;788230i quite frankly couldn\'t give a rats ass which one of the members on here manages a 10 second pass and who is that 0.1 second slower.

then this is not the thread for you. try the one where the guy makes a scoop out of a box :Giggle

To go 10 seconds in an rx4 you wont need as much power as what an FD requires to make it go 10 seconds due to weight. Therefore PP ports unecessary, by my reckoning 400-430rwhp will be enough so a decent street port, turbo like a T78,T04Z,GT40** at 1.2 BAR will do the trick.
Grant will be a welcome addition to the drag pits, you seem have your head screwed on when I spoke to you at Pod.

there doesnt seem all that much in it for weight
 
rx4 1,188kg
fd   1,282kg
 
but bear in mind what you gotta spend upgrading everything on a 4 to cope with 400+ horsepowers
 
rx3 at 884kg would be better

Quote from: hayden;788242there doesnt seem all that much in it for weight
 
rx4 1,188kg
fd   1,282kg

I would think you can take more out of a rx4 than a FD if you really wanted to

Quote from: hayden;788232then this is not the thread for you. try the one where the guy makes a scoop out of a box :Giggle

Everyone loves a $marta$$ :) :Giggle
 
Such a friendly thread - still I have been learning - it\'s all good :)

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;788208I was at Carls today, discussing my engine and drag racing of all things. So if you wait a little while and let me learn to drive up the strip properly I will be out racing you guys.

My aim is for a 10 second pass and to go off the clock of the rx4 which goes to 130mph.

Sounds like some healthy competition for you there blitz :Party

lol...............one day Rob, one day,maybe :rollin:Tongue1;):3gears-rh:Thumbs-up

Quote from: Alfred;788225Abso-mutton-lutely. I would LOVE to see an RX4 make a 10sec pass in this country.
Best of luck with that.

I admire Grants enthusiasm, but there will be no 10 second runs off the trailer.

Engine: If it makes the power, and holds together - then it will allow the things mentioned below to run good times. Anyone can go fast in gear, you need to hone the 60ft time and time between gear changes, that is where the fast ETs come.

Tyres: How much can you fit in the stock arch and how much you are prepared to spend?

Driveline: Will it cope with full bore launches - are you running a spool or LSD?

Suspension: Lift the front to plant the back, means running asymmetric shocks, but does wonders for weight transfer on launch.

Gearbox: Any 10 second car can easily run rubbish times with a slow gearbox/shifting - rotaries synchro have it hard as you are revving so high on the change.
- If times are what you are really after, go an auto/transbrake with hi stall converter (3800) 1 step larger turbo and 50 shot of gas to get her up on boost before launch - you\'ll slingshot outa the hole!

Track prep - Santapod is not WSID (NSW) or Willowbank (QLD) and I do feel for the guys here as the times would be far better on a better track.

If you compromise it to run on the street, you reduce the ability to smack down good times at the track. A genuine 10 second (UK) street car would be a real treat but needs a lot of time and cash - the guys who have done it and are doing it now will tell you all about it.  

Way off topic I know....

Quote from: kiwimazda;788248I would think you can take more out of a rx4 than a FD if you really wanted to

you could be right kiwimazda. but you would need to add a heavy diff and turbo engine. not forgetting the fd carries a lot more equipment (interior, power steer, etc) from factory than the 4 does

The diff is unsprung weight. The body and chassis is where ir needs to be lost. Weight moves to the rear under acceleration but you dont want to much of that.
Gearing in the diff and box are just as important as the engine. You can have all the horses in the world but you still need the delivery

What he said but with less words. Seems we were posting at the same time

Quote from: RamoNZ;788260I admire Grants enthusiasm, but there will be no 10 second runs off the trailer.

Engine: If it makes the power, and holds together - then it will allow the things mentioned below to run good times. Anyone can go fast in gear, you need to hone the 60ft time and time between gear changes, that is where the fast ETs come.

Tyres: How much can you fit in the stock arch and how much you are prepared to spend?

Driveline: Will it cope with full bore launches - are you running a spool or LSD?

Suspension: Lift the front to plant the back, means running asymmetric shocks, but does wonders for weight transfer on launch.

Gearbox: Any 10 second car can easily run rubbish times with a slow gearbox/shifting - rotaries synchro have it hard as you are revving so high on the change.
- If times are what you are really after, go an auto/transbrake with hi stall converter (3800) 1 step larger turbo and 50 shot of gas to get her up on boost before launch - you\'ll slingshot outa the hole!

Track prep - Santapod is not WSID (NSW) or Willowbank (QLD) and I do feel for the guys here as the times would be far better on a better track.

If you compromise it to run on the street, you reduce the ability to smack down good times at the track. A genuine 10 second (UK) street car would be a real treat but needs a lot of time and cash - the guys who have done it and are doing it now will tell you all about it.  

Way off topic I know....

True about syncros on FD boxes, been sufferring the second gear change in the last three rounds, still manage to do 10s , all the rx7s in the street class are street driven, some doing 10s , some doing 9s. It does take money though and practice .

Can you run a 10 off the trailer?, maybe not on the first run but I reckon you can do it on the same day after a few runs with enough planning and prep.
Obviously with the experiance I have with FDs, I could build a FD from scratch and have it run 10s on its first outing if I was driving.

Doesn\'t Rob run 9s in a car with a tax disc and everything?

yes thats what I said in my post Nik, stay awake hahahahahah James also in the 9s drives his to and from the strip when he has not fooked the gearbox LOL

Well, James drives to the strip lol. Goes home with the friendly AA man hahaha

Sorry, night shifts :censored:s what\'s left of my feeble brain lol

Yep we all have tax and "MOT"...

:D:Hammer:evillaugh:bandit:chat:cool;)Yeah .......... "MOT" ...........Yeah......... LOL........

I\'ve got everything required apart from Correct emissions thankyou :)

Quote from: hayden;788231Best of luck from me too. But as far as I can see all you have is an unfinished RX-4 shell and no engine??? Be good to see Haywards make it into the 10s though. We need to take it to the fast piston boys as there numbers are increasing

The car is further on than what my thread shows.

Have been trying figure out electrical system. Removing unnecessary wires and also splice in the wiring harness for the engine. And also mounting battery in the boot, amongst other those things.

Quote from: rbs14a;788283I\'ve got everything required apart from Correct emissions thankyou :)

I don\'t think most rotary owners pass emissions without some tweaking and backhanders.

Quote from: BlitzBoy;788233To go 10 seconds in an rx4 you wont need as much power as what an FD requires to make it go 10 seconds due to weight. Therefore PP ports unecessary, by my reckoning 400-430rwhp will be enough so a decent street port, turbo like a T78,T04Z,GT40** at 1.2 BAR will do the trick.
Grant will be a welcome addition to the drag pits, you seem have your head screwed on when I spoke to you at Pod.

Cheers. :Ladys-man

I\'m hope that once I start running the car, everything will hold together, the rear end is a genuine13b rx4 one which are supposed to be really strong, rx4 runs 9\'s in NZ with one ;)

However if it breaks I will find something better, I believe ford 8" riffs can be built to take 15hp now, and they\'re lighter than the 9" diffs.

I have an LSD in it too already, supplied from Audtralia.

All bushes have been replaced for something a lot better than the rubber ones.

Quote from: kiwimazda;788263The diff is unsprung weight. The body and chassis is where ir needs to be lost. Weight moves to the rear under acceleration but you dont want to much of that.
Gearing in the diff and box are just as important as the engine. You can have all the horses in the world but you still need the delivery

I can have any kind of diff ratio from 3.9 all the way to 5.1, so I have theability to change it to what works best. However I won\'t be going for the 3.9 s that\'s for top end speed rather than accelration.

Have a look at the kia sportage final drive. Its about 4.7 from memory. I ran one in the 7 and if you can get one with the lsd then bonus. I paid £50 for mine from the breaker with the lsd. I think the Honda S2000 will fit also:cheers

I also think that the track at santapod is quite a decent track now. Well the top fuelers this weekend seemed to think it was absolutely fine. Every top fueler made a full pass which is quite rare.

3 x 300+ runs
3 x sub 5 second passes
1 run at 4.8 seconds 250mph as the driver ( a woman by the way) let off the throttle really early.

In conclusion, if 8,000hp dragsters can hook up on that track then our 500Hp rotaries should do too.

Oh and they have also just replaced the launch pad ;) which was so grippy that Andy Robinson was have trouble in his pro mod stude setting up the clutch to get out of the hole. He hadn\'t made one full pass in 3 days of practice and qualifying.

Quote from: kiwimazda;788293Have a look at the kia sportage final drive. Its about 4.7 from memory. I ran one in the 7 and if you can get one with the lsd then bonus. I paid £50 for mine from the breaker with the lsd. I think the Honda S2000 will fit also:cheers

I already have that ;) :cheers

Lovely job

Quote from: kiwimazda;788299Lovely job

Why thank you sir.

Calcted top speed with that off ratio and fd gear box ratios is 140mph I think, at 8,500 rpm.
I will re check though

Quote from: kiwimazda;788293Have a look at the kia sportage final drive. Its about 4.7 from memory. I ran one in the 7 and if you can get one with the lsd then bonus. I paid £50 for mine from the breaker with the lsd. I think the Honda S2000 will fit also:cheers

Hi Brian,

These should be different, the one in yours was 26 spline, RX-4 13b is on 28 spline....not aware of any interchanges, I\'d be interested to know what source its from!

Ray

130mph in 4th gear at 8,500 rpm

Hi Ray, long time no speak. Yes you are correct. Might be able to change his shafts but I am sure Grant has that all under control. And I just remembered I got the diff from you I think??? At a bit more than £50.

Emissions make no difference to whether or not a car is safe to be run on the street, it\'s just enviro-bunkum!  I like seeing in-date tax discs on the cars in the JDS Street Series.  Particularly when someone says "Not his best run" on an 11 second pass which you\'d need a Mclaren F1 to match!

I look forward to seeing an RX4 on the strip, that will look very cool.  A 10 second run from it will look even cooler!

Quote from: Will66;788462Emissions make no difference to whether or not a car is safe to be run on the street, it\'s just enviro-bunkum!  I like seeing in-date tax discs on the cars in the JDS Street Series.  Particularly when someone says "Not his best run" on an 11 second pass which you\'d need a Mclaren F1 to match!

I look forward to seeing an RX4 on the strip, that will look very cool.  A 10 second run from it will look even cooler!

Well I do hope to please. Will you need to get yourself to the fia European dragsters main event or finals. 10 seconds is nothing, even for the street legal classes. If I remember next year I will remind you when the event is on so you can get your ass down there with me.

I am going to try and get to Flame and Thunder and I will book my time so I can get away for the FIA meets next year.  I fancy smelling that Nitromethane and then mentally spending money I don\'t have on some drag beast!

There was a drag bike for sale there. £8,000! 7 second passes.

Just out of interest - Whats the usual cost for a set of P/P housings?

Ive seen figures of about £1000 per housing thrown about? I guess you\'ve got to have the other ports filled in in the front/centre/endplates too?

I m not an expert!! But 1000 pounds looks too unrealistic, thou I may be wrong!

Cheers
Mir

I\'ve heard of £2500 for pukka Mazdaspeed PP housings.  I could be smoking something funny though.

Is that for a pair or for a single housing :eek:

There are Mazda "race" housings which have more material which can be removed from the housing to give even bigger holes.

Don\'t know prices though.

There is a company in Canada that will do ceramix coating and porting for less than that for both housings. They did the coatings for the 787b so think they have earned their reputation.

Quote from: rx7boy;788535There is a company in Canada that will do ceramix coating and porting for less than that for both housings. They did the coatings for the 787b so think they have earned their reputation.

That is not true about doing the ceramic coating for the 787b I am afraid, just someone trying to capitalise.

If I am supplied with the housings I can do them.
If I supply good used rotor housings then it\'s more of course.

Regards
Carl

Mazda race housing on the right
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v297/rob20rx7/4%20rotor%20Engine%20Project/Peripheral%20Port%20Housings/P6170009.jpg)
Can anyone explain the reason to the shape of the port?

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;788584Mazda race housing on the right
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v297/rob20rx7/4%20rotor%20Engine%20Project/Peripheral%20Port%20Housings/P6170009.jpg)
Can anyone explain the reason to the shape of the port?

If you mean exhaust port its pretty simple. this shape gives most flow from least area. If someone think that bringing edges of bottom of the port to the same opening height will give more flow, is wrong, it actually hurts flow. Same applies to port roof but not with such magnitude.

Answer why this isn´t applied to stock engine lies in fact, that manufacture is concerned with low load fuel economy, so they cannot port for big overlap. Only way to make sufficient port area was to make ports wide on bottom.

Point is that anytime you make port bigger, even without affecting timing, you will make engine less flexible and more picky with big chance that you will gain nothing, but loose quite much.

Just imagine how long is exhaust port opened in rotary engine and take into account that big holes also like to flow backwards:Nono!

i did actually mean the shape of the inlet port, not the exhaust port.
 
it is god to see the difference in the 2 housing exhaust ports here too though, lhs housing you can clearly see the exhaust sleeve. rhs housing it looks as if the actual exhaust sleev is made of th same stuff as the housing and is actually part of the housing, aluminium straight through.

is that housing a billet one?

I don\'t thnk so, the thread I got it from is on rx7 club. Thread title is efi 26b, or something along those lines. And that thread says they are mazdas specific race housings. Should imagine they\'re not cheap.

And now with that pic can be copied...........maybe

Well with those ports on an na 13b pp they made 280rwhp in an fd. If you want I could find the thread and give a link for everyone to read?

Quote from: Ed_RX7;788640is that housing a billet one?

Certainly looks billet when you look at the exhaust port, theres no join/sleeve like there is on a normal 13b housing?

They are not billet but cast with the chrome direct onto the ally and no steel inserts.
How do I know? I have a couple of factory pp housings that\'s how.
Regards
Carl

Ooh Carl can I have a look/touch of them next Friday? Prety please? Lol

Quote from: HaywardRotary;788661They are not billet but cast with the chrome direct onto the ally and no steel inserts.
How do I know? I have a couple of factory pp housings that\'s how.
Regards
Carl

So pretty much, you\'re the rotary santa claus? :god

Carl, can I pop down to the workshop and lick them and rub them all over me.
Que sick bucket.lol

Off topic a bit but do you reckon you could pass a man through a rotor housing?  Could be some form of rotorhead good luck ritual.  "Pass ye through the rotor housing of a 13b and forever ye shall be blessed with tough seals and tips that do not blow." or somesuch!

If they were scrawny anorexic. Yes may be.

Or at speed

Jit can do it and not touch the sides ;). He has that problem with a lot of things in life :rolleyes:

i sadly would not be able to get one over my head, great advantage of having a big head though is for head butting. lmao

no one has yet explained the reason for the shape of the inlet port??
 
only way i can see it is to reduce overlap but to gain maximum size inlet?

has anyone got any other picture of peripheral port shapes?

just been searching for PP shapes and came across this, herringbone port 13B, put it in google and click on images, takes you to ausrotary and tells you the reason behind the weird shape of it!!!

Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;788804no one has yet explained the reason for the shape of the inlet port??
 
only way i can see it is to reduce overlap but to gain maximum size inlet?

Maybe. But such reduction of area would do next to nothing in terms of overlap.
I think that they found through CFD simulation that additional area in that part of the port does nothing for flow and just hurts velocity...

Just to bump up this :) - What are the costs for having a housing peripheral ported in the uk?
 
~£500 each?

Quote from: - Fezcat -;789088Just to bump up this :) - What are the costs for having a housing peripheral ported in the uk?
 
~£500 each?

Like Carl says, it depends on whether you supply the housing or you have them supplied for you.

If you want to know the price of them then you could ring any of the rotary garages, Hayward, WGT, reworks, oldone, dragon, jaydee, I\'m sure I have missed one.