Nothing about a FD but I\'ll may be find some advices here from club members (http://www.fduk.org/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif)
I\'m French and I bought a Nissan skyline GTT from a car trader in UK. He gave me a receipt with "Nissan Skyline GTT" written.
When we arrive in France, we discover in fact that it was a gt25 (N/A) with a gtt (turbo) engine in it (http://www.fduk.org/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif)
The trader doesn\'t want to refund me, doesn\'t respond to my calls and I\'m still waiting the v5 because he had to send me it by post.
Would I be right if I take it to a court as he sold me car like a gtt (written in the receipt) and in fact it\'s not.
What would be the procedures ? How long would it take, cost... ? (If someone is a lawer (http://www.fduk.org/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif))
You don\'t need to go through lawyers yet mate. Go to trading standards, as it has come from a trader it must do two things do the purpose it was meant for and be as advertised. If it is not as advertised he is legally in the wrong and has to replace on refund the item.
Search trading standards on google and it will come up with there number. I had a similar incident and they where really helpful.
Also stop calling the trader and start emailing him or sending everything recorded with a copy. That way you will have proof of what is said and know it was recived.
you got a link of the advert you brought it from? or the txt from the add?
Rob
Not knowing a lot about Skylines, is it possibly the seller didn\'t know it didn\'t start life as a GTT? Are chassis numbers different on the GTT and GT25 models?
Does it matter it has been converted? Registration problems in France?
Quote from: merlin2002;778602you got a link of the advert you brought it from? or the txt from the add?
Rob
I don\'t have any record of the advert but in the receipt it\'s clearly written "nissan skyline gtt" hopefully for me in this case and it\'s a gt25 (N/A) with a gtt (turbo) engine.
Quote from: Speedline Imports;778607Not knowing a lot about Skylines, is it possibly the seller didn\'t know it didn\'t start life as a GTT? Are chassis numbers different on the GTT and GT25 models?
Does it matter it has been converted? Registration problems in France?
He has sold a lot of r34 skyline so he should know them pretty well but if he didn\'t know that, I think he still should have accept to refund me when I told him that because he sold me a GTT as stated in the receipt and in fact it\'s a GT25 with a GTT engine.
There is a different engine code in the VIN plate between GTT and GT25.
The problem is differences between them are engine, gearbox, diff, arms, brakes and some parts in the interior. The only thing I know for sure that has been converted is the engine and yes there will be registration problems because the current engine is not the one corresponding to the car.
I also paid the price for a GTT nothing surprisingly cheap if it was a gt25 converted...
Was it also written on the receipt \'sold as seen\'?
Trading standards law is a lot stricter on dealers than a private sale. As he is a trader the advert has to match the car exactly for this purpose. And as he has given you a recipt with a different car on it they will see he did not know what he was selling. Traders are expected to know what cars there selling.
Quote from: m1tch;778715Was it also written on the receipt \'sold as seen\'?
No, just "Nissan Skyline GTT"
I\'ve just sent an email to trading standards, we\'ll see...
Sounds a bit of a ball ache, best of luck.
Without sounding harsh, if there are differences with interior trim, brakes etc, how did you not noitce when you viewed the car?
Quote from: weskereric;778702and yes there will be registration problems because the current engine is not the one corresponding to the car.
If this is a requiremnt in france to register an import then why didn\'t you check the numbers matched before buying?? All the best getting it sorted though
There are quite a few differences the most obvious being the VIN plate and then the 3 clocks / gauges on the top centre dash. My French customers all ask for the V5 to be scanned and emailed to them, this would have also pointed out you were being sold a wrong un.
Being a trader myself you do have to be a lot more carefull selling to private customers but that\'s no major problem as it\'s easier to have happy customers than angry ones.
The dealer may simply not have noticed, are you also not a dealer? I buy from all types of sellers and i know that when i buy from dealers i have no legal rights if it goes wrong as Trading Standards would say "well you should know better" :rolleyes:
I\'d ask the dealer to exchange it for another car for you as you\'ll have a lot more luck than looking for an outright refund. I hope all goes well for you, if you want to email some details of the car i have some good contacts in Germany who buy cars exclusively for drifting / track use so i may be able to help you.
Dave. esp.ltd@hotmail.co.uk (esp.ltd@hotmail.co.uk)
Quote from: jetpilot;778732Without sounding harsh, if there are differences with interior trim, brakes etc, how did you not noitce when you viewed the car?
Because it\'s my first skyline and I tried searching differences between a gt25 and gtt after having bought the car as I feeled that there was no LSD and that seems strange to me for a GTT.
He\'s an importer since long ago and has sold plenty of Skyline. I had no reason to think the car could not be what it was in the advert, what he told me and what it was written in the receipt because it looks like a GTT from the exterior and the engine was from a GTT.
The receipt clearly states it\'s a Nissan Skyline GTT and it\'s not so he\'s in the wrong and has to refund me.
Differences between them are major, price would be half for this kind of car and finally I can\'t register it in France.
Quote from: rx-dave;778767There are quite a few differences the most obvious being the VIN plate and then the 3 clocks / gauges on the top centre dash. My French customers all ask for the V5 to be scanned and emailed to them, this would have also pointed out you were being sold a wrong un.
Being a trader myself you do have to be a lot more carefull selling to private customers but that\'s no major problem as it\'s easier to have happy customers than angry ones.
The dealer may simply not have noticed, are you also not a dealer? I buy from all types of sellers and i know that when i buy from dealers i have no legal rights if it goes wrong as Trading Standards would say "well you should know better" :rolleyes:
I\'d ask the dealer to exchange it for another car for you as you\'ll have a lot more luck than looking for an outright refund. I hope all goes well for you, if you want to email some details of the car i have some good contacts in Germany who buy cars exclusively for drifting / track use so i may be able to help you.
Dave. esp.ltd@hotmail.co.uk (esp.ltd@hotmail.co.uk)
The trader probably knew that the car wasn\'t a GTT but even if he didn\'t know, he still doesn\'t want to refund when I told him. He clearly written that it was a Nissan Skyline GTT in the receipt so hopefully "well you should know better" would be for him.
Personally i think you will struggle if you viewed the car regardless of what the receipt says sorry to say, although i am no expert on the legal implications.
I was just going to say, check to see if the engine number matches the V5, but you dont have it, buying a car and driving off without a V5 is just asking for trouble buddy!
It was written GTT in the advert and finally in the receipt, he\'s a reputable car trader so I had no reason to be suspicious as there isn\'t any significative differences in the expert. I\'m a private buyer, I should not have to be aware of all the differences between a GT25 and a GTT but he has to know and has to tell me and he didn\'t do anything of that and write himself it was a GTT in the receipt...:flamed
I hope all goes well for you but as mentioned why on earth did you but without a V5? I\'m currently helping out a French mate / dealer who bought a GTR without a V5, we\'ve had to re-apply for a V5 for him as he can\'t do a thing with the car until he has this, without my help he said he\'d probably have to break it.
Hopefully all will work out for you...........who was the dealer?
The car was a fresh import, the trader (jap prestige & performance) applied for the v5, he just needed few more days to receive it.
Good chance he didn\'t know the engine had been swapped either then mate.
I agree, if it\'s only just arrived the seller probably wouldn\'t have known :confused:
Quote from: weskereric;778802It was written GTT in the advert and finally in the receipt, he\'s a reputable car trader so I had no reason to be suspicious as there isn\'t any significative differences in the expert. I\'m a private buyer, I should not have to be aware of all the differences between a GT25 and a GTT but he has to know and has to tell me and he didn\'t do anything of that and write himself it was a GTT in the receipt...:flamed
Sorry buddy, i cant agree, if i am buying a car i consider it my responsibility to know EXACTLY what i am buying. In this day and age of misleading ebay adds etc i feel it all too important to know what a buyer is getting himself into, as mentioned elsewhere, maybe the trader thought it was a GTT, traders often arent enthusiasts like you or I and he "may" not have been aware himself. If you bought the car on good will of what he told you it was without viewing and turned up as it did, i think you may have a case, but the fact you have viewed the car in person means i dont think you can hold him fully responsible!
Similar story, i was looking a while back for a particular jetski, they were a ltd run racing edition, the biggest difference from the standard ski was the motor had a special exhaust. One came up on ebay advertised as said ski, but no engine pics, i asked for some, he sent them and it was standard. I politely pointed out to him it was not what he was advertising as and he emailed back saying he had bought it in good faith that it was the ltd one and was very sorry to have caused the confusion.
I know its not what you want to hear buddy, but dont think you can hold said trader 100% responsible.
I think the best thing you can hope for is the trader agrees to take it back to try and sell on your behalf.
Quote from: weskereric;778721No, just "Nissan Skyline GTT"
I\'ve just sent an email to trading standards, we\'ll see...
"Sold as seen" is irrelevant in the context or Trader selling to Non Trader.
He\'s a japanese car importer since a long time, he has sold x0 of Skyline and still have 2 in stock, there is little chance he didn\'t know. He\'s the trader and has to know what he\'s selling and to describe fairly the car and not selling me a total different one...
Quote from: weskereric;778950He\'s a japanese car importer since a long time, he has sold x0 of Skyline and still have 2 in stock, there is little chance he didn\'t know. He\'s the trader and has to know what he\'s selling and to describe fairly the car and not selling me a total different one...
I hear your argument but dont think its that simple, you didnt notice the differences, so how is he supposed to, just because he is a trader doesnt mean he has to or does know the finer points of the jdm market differences model to model.
A simple vin check would have answered your questions and with it being so vital for you in France i would have thought this would have been the first thing you would do.
I understand your frustrations but dont think you can hold the dealer fully responsible, he is a dealer for a reason, not for the love of japanese cars or to be a font of knowledge but to make money.
You viewed the car in person, didnt check its credentials and drove away with no V5.
My advice is not to alienate the dealer with threats or demands but to explain the situation you are in and see if you can not appeal to his "hopefully" better nature and see if will re stock the car and sell on your behalf.
Good luck with working something agreeable to you both out!
Can\'t believe some of you on here sometimes!!! :confused:
If I wanted a Golf GTi and PAYED for a Golf GTi, even got a reciept for a Golf GTi .... but then the Dealer gave me a Golf LX then it is rather quite obvious who\'s wrong here... :Hammer
Or another example, you\'re a bad boy bareback rider and never used Condoms, but your boyfriend sends you to buy Condoms at the local corner shop.... you ask for your size in extra small and payed for extra small, but the plonker behind the counter gave you Large....
What would you do....
a/ blame everyone else
b/ wish you had a bigger member so it will fit
c/ stop being Gay
weskereric Good luck with it...
Quote from: TRex;779065Can\'t believe some of you on here sometimes!!! :confused:
If I wanted a Golf GTi and PAYED for a Golf GTi, even got a reciept for a Golf GTi .... but then the Dealer gave me a Golf LX then it is rather quite obvious who\'s wrong here... :Hammer
Or another example, you\'re a bad boy bareback rider and never used Condoms, but your boyfriend sends you to buy Condoms at the local corner shop.... you ask for your size in extra small and payed for extra small, but the plonker behind the counter gave you Large....
What would you do....
a/ blame everyone else
b/ wish you had a bigger member so it will fit
c/ stop being Gay
weskereric Good luck with it...
Quality answer!!! Love the a/b/c.........made me laugh out loud fair play!! :rollin
One other point, Weskereric, i thought you were a French car dealer or i have i confused you with another dealer?? If this is the case and you are a dealer i\'m afraid the only option is to move it on yourself. I\'ve made some right blunders myself over the years eg. buying an MR2 turbo with 3 Veilside wheels and a space saver that i didn\'t notice and no the 4th Veilside wheel wasn\'t in the car!!! Then it was the Toyota Soarer \'Turbo\' that turned out to be an N/A.........it happens to us all occasionally.
Dave.
Technically the seller is in the wrong and you should reject the car and get your money back.
But the law is long and slow and even if you get a judgement he may not pay it.
I\'d start with a solicitors letter to demonstrate you are serious.
Quote from: jetpilot;778954I hear your argument but dont think its that simple, you didnt notice the differences, so how is he supposed to, just because he is a trader doesnt mean he has to or does know the finer points of the jdm market differences model to model.
Actually, as a trader (as opposed to a private individual) the seller is expected to know. The excuse of ot knowing is not defence for selling goods not as described. SoGA (Sale of Good Act) applies with no caveats.
This is unlike a private sale where you would have to prove, via a civil route, the seller deliberately misled in the sale.
I forgot to say, he\'s not just a trader but it\'s a japanese car importer and had 3 skyline r34 in stock and has sold plenty of them since several years so there is little chance he didn\'t know and if he didn\'t he should have accepted yo refund me because he did a fault in not knowing correctly what he was selling.
He has never mention me he didn\'t know after I told him...
I think you are also \'forgetting\' to mention that you are also a trader / dealer eh :spank
You have no legal rights i\'m afraid, been here myself and it\'s just one of those annoying things called s**t happens :mad:
If the car is a decent example ie. looks good and drives well i\'d just move it on through the drifting community and get most, if not all, of my cash back. I\'m sure the seller would take it back against another car? It\'s well worth asking the question and if you pointed out the fact that you cannot register the car in France it would help you.
I had a customer from Germany who came over to buy an R33 GTST Skyine from me. He had the choice of 5 cars and fell in love with a heavily modded example and, against my advice, he bought that. Sure enough 3 weeks later he called with tales of woe that it was impossible to get it through the TUV test. I then exchanged it for a standard car but charged him a few hundred quid for the miles run and the fact that it had to be re-serviced and re-registered in the UK as we\'d already sent out the export details to the DVLA...........give it a try as he can only say no, i\'d be suprised if he did!
Dave.
Sorry I never said I was a dealer, I bought it like a private buyer.
I purposed him to exchange the car with their supra so I was very flexible.
This was the next day I bought the car but he delayed the exchange two times and finally cancelled it.
He probably doesn\'t want to take it back because he knows it will be difficult to sell it again at this price.
I\'m already in contact with some sollicitors. I\'ll phone trading standards monday and I\'ll see.
Quote from: weskereric;779239Sorry I never said I was a dealer, I bought it like a private buyer.
If you\'re a car ttrader and the car was bought with cash or stock from your business then you\'re still able to progress this but Sale of Goods doesn\'t apply.
If something is sold as one thing but is something else you should gain traction but it will have to go to court and you will have to prove it.
Your solicitor will have to look at the relevant EU law though as you\'re in France. British or French law may not apply.
He may well know you are a car dealer as you are buying up all the UK supplied RX7\'s are you not ;)
That said if you were mis-sold and you have offered the car back in a deal for another car ie. not asking for your money back then the seller should try to accomodate your request to keep a future business going with you. I have an agent / friend in Germany who may be interested in the car, send me a few details and a price and i\'ll forward them on for you :Thumbs-up
Dave.
esp.ltd@hotmail.co.uk (esp.ltd@hotmail.co.uk)
There are 4 uk rx7 dor sale since a few months...
I just count for one, don\'t forget other millions of French and oversea people ;)
Back to the thread, I\'ll have updates from trading standard.
I am NOT going to give you legal advice as my advice needs to be insured before given. But, I will make certain things easy for you.
Which law will apply?
Answer: if the contract is made in the UK, then according to Lord Denning Judgment, English/British Law will.
Which Act is more suitable for you?
Misrepresentation Act 1974, section 2.1
Unfair terms Act 1977
Section 6
Sales of goods Act 1979
(but largely depends-section 13,14,15)
Remedies:
Recision
Recind
sue (for breach of contract)
All the above can only be satisfied by discharging evidential burden on balance of probabilities.
As far buying all UK Fds are concerned, this is only classed as circumstantial evidence which has very less bearing on the case, unless proved otherwise.
Look at the sections I have quoted above and see yourself through it, I am hundred percent sure, you will get answers to your questions.
Mir
Misdescribed goods - surely!