ok I know this is a rotary forum, but if you had to choose a cheap project car (non rotary) to teach yourself about mapping, what car would you choose?
I\'ve stated non rotary as it needs to be able to take some inevitable newbie mapping mishaps :chat
Other criteria is:
Cheap second hand parts readily available
Look ok and be reliable in a general overall sense
Not sure on NA or turbo\'d. Would love to jump right in with turbo charged but not sure if I would be in way over my head before even getting started!
Not overly worried about cost of wideband, tuning software, ecu, etc as I would sell these on when I\'ve had my fun. Same for any essential parts which I will buy s/h in the first place.
Price - Under £3k for a standard/ish car, reasonable amount for expectations?
Is this specifically about mapping electronically or tuning in general? Perhaps an S13 or old school BMW?
Yeah mapping electronically, sorry should have been a bit more clear. I know its a massive subject to learn but I figured I have to start somewhere! Start cheap as possible for all the learning mistakes I\'ll make :D
For a little more money you could have my Mx5 turbo, plenty of scope to learn on that, all there bar a ecu and if you bought yourself a Megasquirt ecu, you can build the ecu to accommodate all sorts of ad ons, launch control etc and they are cheap. Cheap parts a plenty, reliable, economical, easily used as a daily driver, loads of tuning support from uk and us sites, handles like nothing else.....i could go on
http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71232
My mate has put a MS into his supercharged MX5, plus with the 1.8 the series 5 FC3S 550cc injectors are a direct plug and play upgrade :)
Quote from: m1tch;774992My mate has put a MS into his supercharged MX5, plus with the 1.8 the series 5 FC3S 550cc injectors are a direct plug and play upgrade :)
Same with the 1.6, 550cc injectors straight in :)
That solves that then!! Do it!!!
I also have a spare Skyline R34 GTR T25R turbo :)
Already running a T25 on mine :)
Quote from: jetpilot;775010Already running a T25 on mine :)
Mines a T25R though ;)
106 GTI\'s are great cars! You can get them pretty cheap and tweaking them is good fun, but personally I\'d go for the mx5 having owned 2 GTI\'s :Giggle
Mark 1 MX5 had popups, FC3S has popups, both are made from win, Hammond agrees with popups on top gear and I did own both cars at once lol 4 popups :D
I learnt to map on an mx5, took plenty of abuse! :)
Cheap to buy and run and enjoyable to drive.
I reckon if it\'s for mapping practice then the following should be on your list of requirements:
1) Piston engine - you get away with a bit of pinking before change of underwear required
2) Non contact engine - not sure what control you\'d have over timing electronically - but valves hitting pistons is game over.
3) Something not to stressed - in some respects a non turbo engine may be a better starting pint.
4) Simple engine - 4 pot reliable type
I believe the 1.8 BP-05 engine is non interferance, the 1.6 engine is interferance and also the front pulley can fall off if the key sheers, totalling the engine.
I suggest you get a:
Mark 1 MX5 1.8 NA standard
I do actually know someone who is looking to sell his MX5 1.8, comes with a hard top as well!
I concur... 1.8 MX5 Seems your best bet.
And if you get bored you can butcher in a n/a 13B FTUW!
Quote from: BenRX;775022I concur... 1.8 MX5 Seems your best bet.
And if you get bored you can butcher in a n/a 13B FTUW!
Or a Turbo II lump with a Garrett turbo off a truck like Speedline imports MX7 :) wish I had fitted that turbo now rather that selling it lol :rolleyes:
I would have thought the tuning potential will run out very quick on a n/a car?
I have my Honda up for sale for sub 3k, 1.6l Non-VTEC so plenty of tuning options, no VTEC liners and lower compression than VTEC means turbo\'ing is an option.
Even without VTEC it\'s quick enough to keep up with Prof ;)
Quote from: Prof;775019I reckon if it\'s for mapping practice then the following should be on your list of requirements:
1) Piston engine - you get away with a bit of pinking before change of underwear required - mx5
2) Non contact engine - not sure what control you\'d have over timing electronically - but valves hitting pistons is game over. - both mx5 1.6 and 1.8 engines are non interference.
3) Something not to stressed - in some respects a non turbo engine may be a better starting pint. - mx5 1.6 IS a turbo engine without a turbo. Its the engine out of the 323 turbo, but with the turbo taken off, there\'s even turbo oil feeds still in the block, which makes life easy to add a turbo..
4) Simple engine - 4 pot reliable type - mx5.
It\'s a no brainer really :Giggle
The 1.6 mx5 engine being designed for a turbo initially really is a god send. It means its bullet proof n/a, then when you do go turbo it\'ll run at 1 or 1.2 bar all day long making ~250hp.
The pulley / woodruff key issue only effects very early 1.6s, pre 91 I believe, and it\'s easy to spot which engine you\'ve got.
I made between 180hp and 230hp, with plenty of mis tuning and knocking while I learnt, on an engine that was boosted from 100,000 miles to 125,000 and still had good compression on all 4 cylinders :)
Quote from: BenRXAnd if you get bored you can butcher in a n/a 13B FTUW!
Trust me it ain\'t that easy ;) Fun though!
Yeah my 1.6 was an early one, with 115bhp, rather than the 90bhp of the later ones lol I think the engine even has oil sprayers etc
I had a BP-05 GT engine that I dropped into my BA 323F, its what the car should have had :)
I have a 94 Mk1 MX5 gathering cobwebs. Minor mods, ...quad headlights, style bars, stainless cat back, Wolferace wheels, near new Toyo tyres.
Reliable and low mileage for it\'s age. Could be up for sale.
Forgot to mention...it\'s a 1.8
(http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2947/53/25/1334469215/n1334469215_1833307_6203396.jpg)
You know you want a Honda ;)
Thanks for the suggestions guys, some good additional points to look into as well. I don\'t have the money to hand right now as I\'m in the research phase at the moment, as soon as I do I will give the cars for sale some serious thought.
MX5 seems to be the most popular and obvious choice at present! I have to confess thinking of a BMW in some guise but I think it would get expensive really quickly as well as a much steeper learning curve.... or maybe a turbo\'d Ford....
Boooo, you know you want Honda! :p
Quote from: m1tch;775035Yeah my 1.6 was an early one, with 115bhp, rather than the 90bhp of the later ones lol I think the engine even has oil sprayers etc
Sorry to be a pedantic pain in the arse but AFAIK....
89-90 \'short nose crank\' 1.6 had 115hp and can suffer crank pulley problems.
91-93 \'long nose crank\' 1.6 had 115hp and no problems.
93-98 JDM 1.6 is long nose and 115hp
94-95 they didn\'t make UKDM 1.6s
96-98 UKDM 1.6s are 88hp and long nose crank. They make more power than the early engines below 4k but it runs out of puff about 6k and misses out on the top end. Some rumours that there\'s weaker rods and changes in the head but my experience says otherwise. The drop in power is due to softer cams, lower compression ratio and a soft map.
Because I started with the 88hp engine I did lots of research into the engines before I started turboing. :)
Quote from: Lacey;775043Boooo, you know you want Honda! :p
I like Hondas as well, you could always lend it to me so I can have a play with it and then I\'ll bring it back later in one piece. I promise ;)
You\'d want it to have tax and MOT first, has been my daily for nearly 5 years and never missed a beat, it\'s immortal!
Quote from: Lacey;775031Even without VTEC it\'s quick enough to keep up with Prof ;)
Only when Prof let\'s you - lol - I haven\'t used \'Full throttle\' for quite some time - as it tends to open up large gaps in between me and those following. I make 12 psi with 75% throttle - so why waste the extra 25% (as it happens I\'ve not tightened up the wastegate enough to allow much more boost - but it means I get 318 bhp+ without WOT :driving )
Quote from: PDale;775042or maybe a turbo\'d Ford....
I thought you said reliable and good looking :Giggle
(http://www.anchorvans.co.uk/Gemini_Images/S-517V4221.jpg)
One turbo\'d ford! :p
Nah but seriously if you want something really unusual why not get an early 90\'s london taxi? they\'re RWD, look kinda hot-rod\'y, don\'t make much power but are pretty cool if you swap out for something a bit meatier! Hotrod taxi anybody?
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ZxxXC8KKiBg/TJ7-wEbYnpI/AAAAAAAAAMU/LrL4QLgLSIE/s1600/new_london_taxi.jpg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1WE-Ld-J8c
Quote from: Lacey;775090(http://www.anchorvans.co.uk/Gemini_Images/S-517V4221.jpg)
One turbo\'d ford! :p
Nah but seriously if you want something really unusual why not get an early 90\'s london taxi? they\'re RWD, look kinda hot-rod\'y, don\'t make much power but are pretty cool if you swap out for something a bit meatier! Hotrod taxi anybody?
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ZxxXC8KKiBg/TJ7-wEbYnpI/AAAAAAAAAMU/LrL4QLgLSIE/s1600/new_london_taxi.jpg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1WE-Ld-J8c
I\'m going to say....
LOL!
Anotehr vote for MX5. If you fancy even more of a challenge, then MS, and an Eaton SC from a mini. Some adapter plates, some pipework, job done.
Plan to SC my other half\'s NB 1.6 Eunos (120bhp AFAIK) at some point, when I have the time.
I love the 1.6, and odd as it seems, think I prefer it to the 1.8.
The NB JDM 1.6 is IMO the best gen of the 1.6\'s - better than the \'mid\' (after LNC/before stupid power downgrade), and only 10bhp down on the NA 1.8\'s. It loves to rev, really is a peach of an engine. Almost as good as the 4AGE in standard form. Sounds great through a filter.
AW11 is also another choice, as the 4AGE is SO GOOD! But a good one is expensive, and on a cheaper one you\'ll spend more time welding than tuning.
a turbo\'d car would be the better option for learning to map a car as there is constant tweaks you can do to change the car to how you drive etc. not much you can do with an NA motor once you have the afr\'s right, well you could then turbo it? most engines will cope with 0.5 (7psi) bar of boost without going bang.
Nobody likes the hotrot rotary taxi idea then? :(
Quote from: Grant Monkhouse;775250a turbo\'d car would be the better option for learning to map a car as there is constant tweaks you can do to change the car to how you drive etc. not much you can do with an NA motor once you have the afr\'s right, well you could then turbo it? most engines will cope with 0.5 (7psi) bar of boost without going bang.
You have more room for error with an NA car though I guess - it\'s a good starting point. Any form of forced induction reduces that margin. detonation is something to be feared!
With an NA motor you can learn the basics, and optimise timing, AFR\'s, EGT etc.
With a turbo you have boost to worry about as well.
It\'s jsut as do-able, but a bit more \'in at the deep end\' - get the foundations and you can work up, although some people have the ability straight away!
Plus MX5 engines are pennies if they do go.
I\'d immediately eliminate a rotary if I wanted to start self mapping, due to the fine line you have to tread, and the cost of replacement. MX5 engines can be had for less than the price of a set of 13b apex seals!
Not feeling the taxi idea, lol! I will most probably go NA then once I\'m confident with the mapping, fit a turbo and map for boost and learn some more. Just got to do lots of reading, put some money aside and then find time to do it all *sigh*
Quote from: SiH;775398MX5 engines can be had for less than the price of a set of 13b apex seals!
I never realised how cheap MX5 engines were until I just checked Ebay, crazy cheap! hmmm might turbo it and tune the crap out of it, treat it like a consumable item!
Will cost you a lot less to buy one already done, check out mx5nutz, lots of advise and parts etc on there!