Hi all,
Roundaboutnow (Pink Pather 20B) prompted me to get off my bum and get someone to have a look at his data files from rotorstock.com. He wanted to find out if the map in his car caused the engines expiry. I had help from a number of very highly regarded MoTeC guru\'s here in Oz. I\'ll leave it up to Dave, for him tell you about what their thoughts were with the map that was in his M800 ECU.
As a part of doing this, I found that there is some wonderful information available from the MoTeC software download site - you can download for free! There are even some demo\'s and sample files.
Go to this site here: http://software.motec.com.au/release/
Download:
* M400 / M600 / M800 ECU software
* Interpreter software
* ADL Dash Manager software
* Telemetry software - this is fascinating to view (the demo).
As for the hints and tips on tuning etc. you can press the F1 key for help (in the ECU Manager) and a whole stack of information becomes available.
It REALLY is worth doing, even if you never purchase a MoTeC product - however you will soon see how good it is. :)
Did the people that had the car on the rollers actually tune the car?
Yep, they did tune the car. You can even check using the Motec software, as there is a really handy compare feature which will highlight what\'s been changed and what the change was. Very cool. The software is great fun to toy around with, but I wouldn\'t want to be the one that alters it while it\'s connected to the car :)
Glenns helped a lot by getting the map checked out (thanks again), but I think that the engine was already on its way out. There were a couple of telltale signs (i think so, but I\'m not the expert), but I had been assured it was ok. At one point I was going to pop down to the local mazda garage to get a compression test, as I still felt that something was wrong despite assurances, but I believed what I was told and didn\'t bother. Think the local mechanics would have shat themselves when I turned up in the Pink P :rollin
If you want then I can send you the before and after maps and you can have a play with the motec software (available free from their site as Glenn said).
Yeah, I\'d be really interested matey. I think you sent Geff your original map? there looked to be some scary bits to it then! be interested to compare to see what they changed...
Who assured you of the motor being ok?
One thing i did notice as the pink panther went down the track was the missfires towards the end of the gears, not sure what revs you would be doing but it didnt sound that high. Not sure if its tuning or something to do with your ignition system. Mine used to do but clean plugs sorted it with the help of an ignition booster.
regards
tony
ps,
do you have to pre mix the oil/petrol with a motec or will it run the oil injection? Have a supercharged 20b in an FD, was going to go with the micro tec.
Rich - drop me a PM with your email address and I\'ll send you the 2 files. I was assured about the engine by a couple of reputable people, although I think it was just to placate me and stop me worrying, rather than any actual tests being carried out.
antnicuk - I think a lot of the misfires were due to me holding gears a tiny bit too long and hitting the rev limit, especially in 1st and second. Rev limit was set at 7200rpm. I did have a problem a while ago with misfires on hot plugs, but was running the colder ones at Rotorstock, so pretty sure it was just the limiter (right up until the last run when it did it at 5000rpm cos the engine had just gone).
I\'m running premix, but I seem to remember reading that the new motec software will run the oil injection. Email motec just to check, but why run the oil injection? If you drop it then its one less thing to go wrong, and think of the huge weight saving :D
Cheers matey, you have PM...
MoTeC were promising OMP support for ages (years?), dunno whether the latest windows s/ware does the job or not tbh. But frankly pre mixing is my preference any way, personal preference eh. I\'d be surprised if it cant in fairness - its frightening what it can/is mean to be able to do. Just wish u could make it work in PSI or bar - those other things are way too much for me to comprehend! :)
Hi all,
Sorry - I was away for the weekend.
Rich, it is actually pretty straight forward - just work in kPa (Kilopascals). And you need to add the 14.5 for atmospheric pressure. In the ECU Manager, just look in help for kPa and it will explain it all for you.
I hope Dave won\'t mind, but the guys who checked the map for me said that the ignition would have been ok (apart from the split between leading and trailing) if it was running on METHANOL!
Quote here on the help:
QuoteMAP Sensor
The MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor measures Absolute Pressure (ie. pressure relative to a vacuum).
0 kPa Absolute = Complete Vacuum
100 kPa = 1 Bar = 14.5 PSI
Atmospheric Pressure at sea level is approximately 100 to 102 kPa, depending on the day.
MAP sensors normally produce a voltage between 0 and 5V, depending on the pressure.
The pressure sensor may be used to measure the inlet manifold pressure or to measure the barometric pressure depending on the Load Sensing arrangement detailed earlier.
The ECU Sensor Setup parameters must be set to indicate the type and pressure range of the sensor.
Avoid severe vibration of the sensor as this can cause fluctuations in the reading. Do not mount rigidly to the engine. Normally the pressure sensor is mounted to the vehicle body.
I seem to recall it had 15 degrees advance still at 2 bar? :D
Glenn, I don\'t mind any info being shared about my car. If it helps anyone else in any way then that\'s good for rotaries in general.
When I said that I thought the engine was already on the way out, I didn\'t mean that the map was right. I just compared the setup when I bought it with the setup after it was tuned, and the ignition split hasn\'t been changed and the ignition timing doesn\'t seem to have been altered much (not at higher revs anyway). I\'ll look over the 2 files again later to check again in case I missed something there. The engine might have been on its way out because the ignition has always been wrong I suppose. Or it could just be that my run at Cadwell was the first serious hard use it had ever had, which highlighted the ignition problem and started the engine probs.
BTW, I understand how AFR is set (kind of), but how do you decide the right igniton advance and split? Is it just knowing how it works, or does it require checking for detenation while on a rolling road or road testing?
Hi Dave,
Great stuff, if that is the case we\'ll make this thread a really informative one. I\'ll upload your ECU files - for people to download if that is ok?
Let me know.
I\'ve been wanting to do something like this for a while - I\'ll add in screen dumps and all sorts.
This will be REALLY helpfull stuff for everyone in the rotary world.
BTW...this is probably the best thread I have found on timing, but just keep in mind that figures quoted are mainly for 13B\'s not 20B\'s where peak torque is at much lower rpm\'s.
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=101226
Another thing that both the guys (here in Oz) who I have spoken to at length about Dave\'s car is that turbo itself would not have helped the situation. i.e. it is too small, making the engine hotter (contributing to possible detonation etc. etc.) to make reasonable power. Where if a large turbo was installed you should be able to make double the power the car was making with a lot less stress - i.e. run it at 1 bar of boost and make 500-600rwhp.
Please upload the files. I would have already done it myself already if I could have (no webspace :( ). I\'ll call Tim at Tuning Japanese tomorrow and try and get the other log file from Shakespeare County.
One note for anyone who uses the log file - for some reason the virtual dash feature on the Motec Interpreter reports the wrong rpm on the log file. Not sure why, as the correct rpms are logged in the file and on the graphs. Or to put it another way, no, my engine doesn\'t do 20,000rpm as the virtual dash reports :D
The turbo being too small does seem to be the general consensus. If I can stretch to it then I will get a bigger turbo while the engine is out. If not then I may have to look at water injection to help for now and change the turbo over winter. One other comment on the car by various techie people at Rotorstock was that some of the fuel lines appear small and the fuel reg isn\'t great, so they are more bits to do.
On another note, I got a call off Tim at japvillage (aka the guy who sold me the Pink Panther not to be confused with Tim at Tuning Jap mentioned before) the other day. He seemed suprised that I\'d only quoted 450bhp (est.) in the Japanese Perfomance article. As it turned out it was running 528 fwhp (or 404 rwhp) at Shakespeare County. Tim reckons it was much higher when they had it on the rollers (using the same turbo). If the engine was already loosing compression, would this give a huge drop in bhp? Tim claimed that they saw 600rwhp (seems high)? Is this more drop than would be expected from an engine on its way out?
Yeah as you lose compression, the more power u lose over time, u will get a hige drop in power, but hey im no expert, u need some one like Carl to give his views.
Just as a reference, Petit Racing in America when they do the Triple Rotor Transplant on stock twin turbos they get something like 500 bhp at the Fly
QuoteOriginally posted by BlitzBoy
Yeah as you lose compression, the more power u lose over time, u will get a hige drop in power, but hey im no expert, u need some one like Carl to give his views.
Probably not 200 ponies tho :) Seriously, I (still) find it hard to believe a 20B would make 600atws on a T04R - its just not big enough?!
QuoteJust as a reference, Petit Racing in America when they do the Triple Rotor Transplant on stock twin turbos they get something like 500 bhp at the Fly [/B]
Yeah, they make about 450-500fly wheel, but what thats measured on is an interesting question; Dynojet would probably knock a slice off that from what u read.
Turbos arent really stock either; they are Cosmo twins but are rebuilt and mod\'d by petit before installation - fairly extensively I think.
what Turbo would be big enough to get 600 atw on a 20B?, T88 maybe a Garrett 42/45!!!
http://www.horsepowerinabox.com/HPIAB2/prod81.htm
mmmm want one
I have turbo envy:D
QuoteOriginally posted by BlitzBoy
what Turbo would be big enough to get 600 atw on a 20B?, T88 maybe a Garrett 42/45!!!
I have a 42/45 ready for mine at the mo, altho I dunno whether it will be what I end up with long term.
Dave - that\'s great, I think this will be of real benefit to many people...
* 20B Single Turbo M800 ECU file (http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/forum-photos/motec/m800-pinkpanther-mazda-20b-turbo.e21)
To read this file you will need the latest M800 ECU software, which can be downloaded here: http://mirror.motec.com.au/software/release/files/m800_211K3.exe it is 5.3MB in size.
* Data Logging file (http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/forum-photos/motec/20040101-0100100.ld)
Interpreter software can be found here:
http://mirror.motec.com.au/software/release/files/mi_1-29-0023en.exe 5MB in size.[/url]
You got one Rich!!!
ahhh you lucky thing, did you order it from Oz? what ECU you using to run it?
Hi Dave and Glenn,
I have just been going through this thread and have a couple of comments to make.
One is that dave\'s engine may well have been in a poor state internally after Cadwell,the 20b is such a smooth engine that it is sometimes hard to tell if a tip has gone or is damaged, unlike a 13b.If it was tuned like that, then that in itself could have created more problems with the map.
Secondly,when Pip pulls the engine much more information will be readily available to make a judgement on the state of the build(Which will have a bearing on the cause of failure),that may also give some pretty good clues to as to what went wrong.
Thirdly,the mapping may well have been done to the limits/parameters known for a piston engine which generally are not the same for the rotary engine as those who have tuned them will know.
That being said at the end of the day the people who will be now doing the build and tuning should have a fair amount of say as to what should be done,after all Pip know\'s his stuff and will want the best for the Pink Panther.
The turbo on the car is definitely too small,it should not really go back together like that.
The fueling needs sorting dramatically and the intercooler is also probably too small too.
Hope this help\'s.
Kind regards
Carl
Is there room for a bigger intercooler?
QuoteOriginally posted by BlitzBoy
did you order it from Oz? what ECU you using to run it?
Yes, picked up from aus last year, one of Geffs mates was selling them cheap so it was worth a punt I thought. As many will know tho, its not exactly in use just yet :) In fact, if u havent picked your motor up from Geff yet - have a look in one of the beer draws when u do :D
It will be run by MicroTech in the first instance btw.
I would be very interested to see the inside of that engine Dave...as I\'m sure a few others would too!
Rich you just reminded me to ring Geoff later this week on the status of my engine.
Ahh now I remember when I dropped off my engine Geoff showing me a huge turbo, didnt realise it was yours, damn that thing is big!!!
Maybe the Pink Panther should consider getting something similar to power his triple Rotor and sell me his T04R :D
Yes, that will have been mine. And I will have been the hippy putting the bolts in the engine stand while u and geff were breaking your backs holding the thing :rollin
I was going to suggest to Dave that he\'d probably be able to shift his T04 pretty easily, on the presumption that it wasnt injured during engine demise. Nice turbo. For a 13B :)
Any way, I digress; Carl, what sort of intercooler do you have in mind? the Trust one he has isnt particularly small, is it? Whats Gary have on his car with the 42R? HKS GT?
Very interesting reading, thanks for the data!
A few questions though, for those in the know of 20b\'s, motecs etc!!!
1) I notice split timing is 5 degrees flat under load, but the table only goes to 1 bar (200 kpa), whereas most other tables, such as inj and ign tables go to 300 kpa (2 bar). So what happens to split above 1 bar?
2) Where is peak torque on a 3 rotor, and what do they rev to?
On a 2 rotor, running 17 degrees advance at 5500 rpm / 1 bar would concern me!!!
There\'s probably loads of functions I haven\'t found yet, that might make corrections to the numbers I\'m seeing so far :)
This will keep me interested for ages!!!
Max
Stock they make about 285lb/ft at 2200rpm, and peak is just under 300lb/ft at about 3k. And they pretty much make that or near to it all the way to 7k-ish which is about redline from the factory...
Cool !
will have a play with the software now I have somthing to load into it. :)
Cheers,
Mike
Max!!
Yes - well spotted mate, the timing split was something that I had a few comments on (as in it not being enough). I \'THINK\' what happens is that the values get interpolated to match that of the Ignition/Fuel Site maps - not 100% sure on this.
But to change it to go to 300 kPa, on the menu go to:
Adjust --> Site Set-up --> Load 11 (Ign Load sites 11). Set the highest value to 300kPa (on the far right). Then you can either Interpolate them by going to: Tools --> Interpolate Horizontal Row, it will do exactly that. Or you can just type the values in.
Then go back to Adjust --> Rotary Split, and you will see the value now up to 300kPa.
Again well spotted, the timing was far too advanced for pump fuel. On a 3rotor - peak torque is much lower than a 13B, so it may have been detonating for quite some time.
When you get a chance, have a look at the log file via the Interpreter. You will see that the Intake Temps are really quite high (as Carl has said a better intercooler would help this). But again with the ECU you can compensate for intake temps/engine temps - you name it.
For Compensations, (in the ECU manager) go to Adjust --> Ignition --> Compensations --> Air Temp Comp where you will find another table. This is also something that could have helped prevent extra stress on the engine.
It is good stuff isn\'t it! :)
Not sure how clear this will be (no scanner, so digi photo), but here\'s the power graph for the Pink Panther the week before the engine went. Peak torque seems to be coming in very high (for a 20B).
Just to make it a bit clearer, here\'s one with big labels:D
Cheers for those Dave, so we know now with the tune that was in the car peak torque was 400ft lb at 6210rpm. I would have thought the peak torque rpm was lower being a 20B? Was it a chassis or hub dyno?
Air intake on the dyno was 38 degrees celcius. Some of your air temps on the rotorstock day were up around 60-65 degrees, which is very hot.
Also, did the engine feel like it was running smooth for your very first run? 1st and 2nd gear look smooth, but 3rd and 4th the revs are jumping around on the logging screen. If the engine was running smooth then maybe there is some kind of wiring/sensor problem also? (be something worth checking).
I have attached a screen dump of the first run here:
QuoteOriginally posted by gbutcher
Cheers for those Dave, so we know now with the tune that was in the car peak torque was 400ft lb at 6210rpm. I would have thought the peak torque rpm was lower being a 20B?
Agreed; strange. According to dyno its barely making 200lb/ft at 3750rpm?? whereas a stock motor makes peak of 300lb by then?
Hi Dave and Glenn and Rich,
If you look at the sanpshot above the figures written are for inlet temp only at the point of the cross hatching,the inlet temps are pretty high as the run progresses peaking around 56 degrees,hence the need for a bigger turbo and intercooler.
The high torque peak is perfectly normal,just because the stock engine runs a pretty low torque peak that does not automaticaly mean this engine will,I think it supposed to be ported but the main reason will be the single turbo as against the twins of the stock engine setup.
Remember that on the 13 twin turbo the engine makes 90%of it\'s peak torque at 2000 rpm and peak torque is at 5000rpm.Single\'s don\'t.
If you run a 20b N/A then the peak torque will be well up the rev range,the characteristics really remain the same in relative terms for these engines that are running the same type of rotors and most of where the torque figures end up is governed by the turbo and inlet setup.
Also the timing is way too advanced under boost and load.
Kind regards
Carl
QuoteOriginally posted by Carl
Remember that on the 13 twin turbo the engine makes 90%of it\'s peak torque at 2000 rpm and peak torque is at 5000rpm. Single\'s don\'t.
D\'oh! That makes sense - very good point sir!! I wasnt expecting it to be the same but figures it would be less dissimilar if you see what I mean...
if you are changing that turbo in the winter gime a shout my dad wants to put a single in with a loda other stuf when its tuked away for winter but right now all im botherd with is getign this fookin thing going
Hi all,
In an effort to understand how the User Defined Site tables work, I have compiled the following text for interest...
Glenns Site Table notes (http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/forum-photos/motec/Glenns-MoTeC-notes-on-Site-tables.htm)